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post #3271 of 3307 Old 09-05-2017, 11:29 AM
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Not running full range will decrease the power they need but will not change their sensitivity.

Regarding the calculator, it is as accurate as it can be without doing a full analysis of the characteristics of your room and speakers, and of course that also means it will tell you your speakers will deliver 150 dB at the MLP if you give them enough power since it has no way of knowing when they turn to ash.

The reference spec is 105 dB max for each main speaker and 115 dB max from the sub at the MLP. Whether you really want or need that much SPL is up to you... My system will deliver that but I normally watch movies at around -30 dB so am nowhere near that loud.

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post #3272 of 3307 Old 09-05-2017, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by uopdrmark View Post
8 ported 18's for LFE so mains should be crossed and not run full range which I would think should also increase there sensitivity right?
The maximum possible clean output level of both amps and speakers is indeed increased by not burdening them with having to reproduce the hardest most power-gobbling part of movie/music content, the bass. The improvement is not as much as many believe it to be, however. Consider it as a perk (a free bonus) to using bass management and filtering the deep bass content away from the main speakers (a good idea usually for many reasons) but don't rely on it as "Oh boy, now I can buy amps that have only half the power since I am using this method".

Sensitivity is a measurement of how much SPL you can get out of a speaker for a given input level, usually 1 watt (2.83V into 8 ohms) measured at 1 meter, on axis, in a non-reverberant environment. That doesn't increase from filtering away the deep bass, however room boundary reinforcement such as placing a speaker at (or even better yet, in) a wall does increase output, as can be seen in calculations from those online SPL calculators we were just talking about.

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post #3273 of 3307 Old 09-05-2017, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by uopdrmark View Post
I am wondering the same thing Wookii. I found this:http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html. Just not sure if I would input 300w or 600w per speaker. Also, if the calculator is actually accurate, which I don't really know, it doesn't seem clear to me if I should account for each speaker individually, or 3 for the LCR or all speakers in the room. I'll have LCR plus 14 surrounds/atmos. I'm sure I could deafen anyone will them all cranked up but the reality is the LCR provide most the content for movies with the rest just filling in background info.
Item 3 in the calculator says "If you know the distance in meters, divide by 3 to get an appoximation in feet." Given how wrong that is, it's hard to recommend the calculator. It's a grade school mistake.

Misspelling approximation as appoximation also unacceptable. This site isn't a hurried post on a thread. Spelling checkers are broadly available.

Most all these calculation sites drop the SPL by 6 dB with each doubling of distance. In a room a 3 to 4 dB drop is more likely. A few dB's difference translates into a lot of extra power required, and potentially money spent unnecessarily.
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post #3274 of 3307 Old 09-05-2017, 04:42 PM
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Thanks for the clarification on sensitivity vs decreased need for power when crossed over. I figured it wouldn't cut the amp need in half but figured it should reduce it by something.

Sounds like the calculator may be under stating the SPL level but even still it says I can hit 107.8 dB SPL with one MS at 15ft with 400w. I'm not sure though if you are supposed to add the watts given to the HF and LF sections together or independently or something in between. Assuming they are added it seems like a 200w/ch amp should be enough to hit reference and then have almost 3dB's cushion. Is this correct or is there more too it than this?
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post #3275 of 3307 Old 09-05-2017, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post
Item 3 in the calculator says "If you know the distance in meters, divide by 3 to get an appoximation in feet." Given how wrong that is, it's hard to recommend the calculator. It's a grade school mistake.

Misspelling approximation as appoximation also unacceptable. This site isn't a hurried post on a thread. Spelling checkers are broadly available.

Most all these calculation sites drop the SPL by 6 dB with each doubling of distance. In a room a 3 to 4 dB drop is more likely. A few dB's difference translates into a lot of extra power required, and potentially money spent unnecessarily.
I'm just cruising by and noticed this. You are absolutely right about the approximately 3 dB/double-distance decline of steady-state room sound level - this is what is measured in the calibrations. -6 dB/dd is only for the direct sound. I haven't examined the calculators listed, but any of them that use -6 dB/dd are wrong.

The other factor that is commonly ignored is that 105 dB is not a steady-state goal, it is an instantaneous peak sound level goal - equivalent to a soundtrack hitting 0 dBfs, above which, in theory at least, nothing can exist. For this circumstance, using a pure tone with a 3 dB peak to average level difference, the equivalent steady-state objective is 102 dB SPL. So, we pick up a factor of 2 in amplifier power requirement for nothing. Right?

[edit] Ooops, my mistake. Thanks to Roger Dressler for sorting this out. 0dBfs is a steady-state pure tone level (theoretically 105 dB in the room). This means that the peak level is 3dB higher, at +3dBfs (theoretically 108 dBSPL in the room). As this is digital clipping level, nothing exists above +3 dBfs (108 dB SPL). This is for a single channel, so multiples can of course generate much higher levels.

Something else that is relevant. I am working on the website to accompany my new book, and did a survey of about 60 consumer loudspeaker sensitivity ratings: published vs. measured. Not surprisingly the published numbers are higher, but the amount was disturbing: an average of 2.7 dB higher than those measured properly in an anechoic chamber (measured in the far field, 2 m, and calculated at 1 m). That is almost a factor of two in power. In fact there was one that was 7 dB too high - a factor of 5 in amplifier power - this is marketing out of control. So, question everything you read.

Loudspeaker impedance matters, especially minimum impedance, and this too is widely ignored. For those honorable manufacturers that state minimum impedances, the numbers were quite close to measurements. However the rest were all over the map. Average measured minimum: 4.3 ohms. Average specified impedance: 5.9 ohms. More power (current) is needed than might have been anticipated. One scrupulously honest manufacturer published curves.

And we haven't even touched amplifier power ratings, especially those in receivers.

We live in a world full of "alternative facts"
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post #3276 of 3307 Old 09-05-2017, 05:47 PM
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I found this calculator over at Acoustic Frontiers website: http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/2013322spl-calculator/

According to it 85dB's plus 20 for transients/headroom is only using 43w RMS and 85w Peak.

Anyone with M2's able to measure what they are actually using?
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post #3277 of 3307 Old 09-06-2017, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by uopdrmark View Post
Again, not trying to stir the pot, just genuinely curious what the issue would be using an Inuke 6000 on each M2? They are pretty "dirt cheap" but tons of them are beat on powering subs and I haven't seem loads of people complaining they failed or melted anything.
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Here's my 2 second google research on the matter which confirms exactly what I said, assuming the methodology used for the test was proper. [I didn't look into it but the source seems to be from within our very own forum if you want to dig more]:
If you want a pretty solid rundown on the nu6000 go here: NU6000DSP Amp Rundown...

On another note, when I was browsing amps for the m2, the best pairing I saw for domestic use was the DCI-n1250-4 for the stereo pair with a DCI-n1250-2 for the center. Proper power, and only two units with no wasted channels. A match made in heaven

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post #3278 of 3307 Old 09-06-2017, 09:25 PM
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I bought a pair of M2’s this past weekend – courtesy of Schuermann (thanks!).

Took a couple of days (and a batch of gumbo as a reward) to get help carrying them down into a basement room which I am about to remodel. 129 pounds doesn’t sound like much, but with the size of the boxes, it is awkward to carry. After unboxing, I put some furniture sliders under the rubber feet to help move around for placement (the speakers have spikes you can use instead)

While waiting to get them downstairs, I had fun playing around with Audio Architect and the SDA 4600 that John let me use. Its rather extensive with what you can do. Lots of fun.

I hooked up a TASCAM UH-7000 that I use for audio testing and soldered a couple of XLR connectors to connect to the phoenix connectors on the amp. The phoenix connectors are smaller than other phoenix connectors I had – but fortunately the amp came with some phoenix connectors. They fit solidly into the amp, so no concern about connection. The speaker connections are also well built – set up for spade connectors but can also take a wire.

I fed the TASCAM with USB from a laptop running Roon and powered up (with ear protection on just in case :-). First sound was sweet, but confusing. I was missing something. Turns out that I was only hearing the left channel. Both L and R were configured to use the same input. After learning the differences between Audio 1 and Channel 1 (and seeing how configurable this amp is), I sorted it out.

So, I had only about an hour to listen before I had to turn things off and get ready for a trip. Lots of fun and some great sounds – and I look forward to experimenting more this weekend.

Over the coming weeks, I need to figure out: placement (they will be flush mounted in the wall), and then how best to feed them (amp and DAC - for 2ch audio).
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post #3279 of 3307 Old 09-13-2017, 02:19 PM
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I bought a pair of M2’s this past weekend – courtesy of Schuermann (thanks!).

Took a couple of days (and a batch of gumbo as a reward) to get help carrying them down into a basement room which I am about to remodel. 129 pounds doesn’t sound like much, but with the size of the boxes, it is awkward to carry. After unboxing, I put some furniture sliders under the rubber feet to help move around for placement (the speakers have spikes you can use instead)

While waiting to get them downstairs, I had fun playing around with Audio Architect and the SDA 4600 that John let me use. Its rather extensive with what you can do. Lots of fun.

I hooked up a TASCAM UH-7000 that I use for audio testing and soldered a couple of XLR connectors to connect to the phoenix connectors on the amp. The phoenix connectors are smaller than other phoenix connectors I had – but fortunately the amp came with some phoenix connectors. They fit solidly into the amp, so no concern about connection. The speaker connections are also well built – set up for spade connectors but can also take a wire.

I fed the TASCAM with USB from a laptop running Roon and powered up (with ear protection on just in case :-). First sound was sweet, but confusing. I was missing something. Turns out that I was only hearing the left channel. Both L and R were configured to use the same input. After learning the differences between Audio 1 and Channel 1 (and seeing how configurable this amp is), I sorted it out.

So, I had only about an hour to listen before I had to turn things off and get ready for a trip. Lots of fun and some great sounds – and I look forward to experimenting more this weekend.

Over the coming weeks, I need to figure out: placement (they will be flush mounted in the wall), and then how best to feed them (amp and DAC - for 2ch audio).
Im trying to decide what to drive the speakers with and looking for guidance.

One option is the SDA 4600. The issue to me is that it does AD/DA, and at 96k. Seems an advantage of using the iTech HD is sending the digital directly into it. But, it is still only 96k. Finally, there is a DIY approach - using a source with DSP (like JRiver or Roon) and a 4 channel DAC. I've seen discussion on this, but not sure how well it works.

Ive started getting some hi res material and being stuck at 96k seems limiting

Thanks, John
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post #3280 of 3307 Old 09-13-2017, 02:25 PM
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So, the wife and I are looking at buying a new home. As much as I wanted to say my next home would have an ideal spot for a theater room, it looks like it may not happen. But, the ceilings in the basement can be made pretty high, so that would allow for some decent sound-proofing above. However, the currently finished basement has about 12'6" in width (and over 20' in length that I could consume). I assume I'll lose some of that width to sound proofing shell / treatment, so maybe 12' of usable width.

I have two M2s already and really don't want to get rid of them. Does anyone think that putting a trio of M2s on my front-stage in 12' of width would be stupid. They'd be right up against the L/R walls pretty much, but I'd have plenty of depth to get some subs behind them and sit 12' away and have some depth behind me. Probably only get a single small row and maybe bar in a non-audiophile back-wall location, but....

I dunno, I love the house otherwise, but...this is killing me.
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post #3281 of 3307 Old 09-13-2017, 02:28 PM
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I personally prefer to use a single Crown DCI N 2/600 or 2/1200 for each M2. Rather each speaker have it's out amp and power source. Likely not audible but good for my own piece of mind or just or my OCD. :0 That's how I also configure them for my customers unless they are on a tight budget.
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post #3282 of 3307 Old 09-13-2017, 04:19 PM
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So, the wife and I are looking at buying a new home. As much as I wanted to say my next home would have an ideal spot for a theater room, it looks like it may not happen. But, the ceilings in the basement can be made pretty high, so that would allow for some decent sound-proofing above. However, the currently finished basement has about 12'6" in width (and over 20' in length that I could consume). I assume I'll lose some of that width to sound proofing shell / treatment, so maybe 12' of usable width.

I have two M2s already and really don't want to get rid of them. Does anyone think that putting a trio of M2s on my front-stage in 12' of width would be stupid. They'd be right up against the L/R walls pretty much, but I'd have plenty of depth to get some subs behind them and sit 12' away and have some depth behind me. Probably only get a single small row and maybe bar in a non-audiophile back-wall location, but....

I dunno, I love the house otherwise, but...this is killing me.

Just toe them in and do it. You might have to add some side treatment, or not.

Oh, wait, I meant "No, that is totally stupid, complete waste, your best option is to send them to me and get something else. I'll give them a good home."

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #3283 of 3307 Old 09-13-2017, 05:14 PM
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Just toe them in and do it. You might have to add some side treatment, or not.

Oh, wait, I meant "No, that is totally stupid, complete waste, your best option is to send them to me and get something else. I'll give them a good home."
lol -- thanks for the encouragement. The worst part is there's probably another 3' available on the other side, but I'd have to get rid of two posts with a likely very expensive engineered beam and no idea how it even gets into the house.... I suppose enough $$ and anything is doable, but not sure 3' is worth it. Plus I'd lose the only spot my pool table will work.

1st world problems.
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post #3284 of 3307 Old 09-13-2017, 11:00 PM
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Has anyone ever measured the wattage going out to their M2's using a Kill A Watt meter? I'm really wondering how many watts people are actually using.
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post #3285 of 3307 Old 09-13-2017, 11:48 PM
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^A kill-o-watt meter can roughly measure the amount of AC watts a power amp pulls from one's AC wall outlet however it can't do what I believe you are actually asking for, i.e. measure the amount of power the amp outputs under some specific scenario.

What you (I believe) are actually asking about [peak amp power output in watts] will vary drastically based on the dynamic nature of the music content, fraction of a second to fraction of a second, and the seating distance and volume level that pleases the particular individual listener.

In the past having crude but functional power level meters was a very common feature, even found on very inexpensive consumer stereo receivers. Pro amps still have them, sometimes, but at least having clip lights will give a consumer a rough idea of how often they momentarily exceed their amp's maximum power capability, (first happening only on the loud peaks). A better question to ask the owners here {I am not one of them} is "Have you ever seen your clip lights illuminate and if so how often and under what circumstances [music content, volume level, seated distance, number of active speakers] did it occur?"

Occassional, very breif, clipping on only dynamic musical peaks is not nearly as hard on the ears as most make it out to be. Where the ear gets very upset is when it is sustained and especially on pure tones, not music.

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post #3286 of 3307 Old 09-14-2017, 03:22 AM
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I visited Art's place and listened to his awesome JBL M2 LCRs, Trinnov Altitude set up.

It was outstanding... Dialog intelligibility, dynamics, everything in spades!!

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #3287 of 3307 Old 09-14-2017, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
^A kill-o-watt meter can roughly measure the amount of AC watts a power amp pulls from one's AC wall outlet however it can't do what I believe you are actually asking for, i.e. measure the amount of power the amp outputs under some specific scenario.

What you (I believe) are actually asking about [peak amp power output in watts] will vary drastically based on the dynamic nature of the music content, fraction of a second to fraction of a second, and the seating distance and volume level that pleases the particular individual listener.

In the past having crude but functional power level meters was a very common feature, even found on very inexpensive consumer stereo receivers. Pro amps still have them, sometimes, but at least having clip lights will give a consumer a rough idea of how often they momentarily exceed their amp's maximum power capability, (first happening only on the loud peaks). A better question to ask the owners here {I am not one of them} is "Have you ever seen your clip lights illuminate and if so how often and under what circumstances [music content, volume level, seated distance, number of active speakers] did it occur?"

Occassional, very breif, clipping on only dynamic musical peaks is not nearly as hard on the ears as most make it out to be. Where the ear gets very upset is when it is sustained and especially on pure tones, not music.


I purposely tested this. I have a crown dci 8/300n. 8 channels of 300 watts. I have 2 channels hooked up to each speaker, one for high driver and one for the woofer. So I have 4 available channels and could bridge for twice the power.

I ran the M2s full range for bass heavy music and turned it up very loud. I sit 16' from my speakers. I never saw the clip lights come on. For the highs it never moved to -20db. The lows would sustain at -20db for bass heavy portions and light the -10db for short periods, maybe a second. The light scale goes from -10 to clipping as the next light. So where in between those two I was, I'm not sure. But, the red never light up.

I am unsure how sensitive the clip light is.
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post #3288 of 3307 Old 09-14-2017, 09:18 AM
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turned it up very loud. I sit 16' from my speakers. I never saw the clip lights come on. For the highs it never moved to -20db. The lows would sustain at -20db for bass heavy portions and light the -10db for short periods, maybe a second. The light scale goes from -10 to clipping as the next light. So where in between those two I was, I'm not sure. But, the red never light up.

I am unsure how sensitive the clip light is.
Unfortunately your "very loud" may not be the same for the next guy however your experience seems typical for most of my customers I've had: they are surprised to discover that, according to their power level meters, in most common use they only use a fraction of what their amp can do. Conversely some people that listen to music with an extreme dynamic range (not very common in modern rock) are sometimes dismayed that no matter how much they spend they can't find an amp that won't clip at least on the loudest peaks.

Thanks for your input. I'm confident that 300w/ch would be plenty for my needs as well.
----

Loud drum solos recorded with a close range, excellent mic are often a good example where you discover you need an amp with lots of power if you fear ever seeing clip lights turn on:


For those unfamiliar with this classic torture test album for amps, here's some cleaner versions (although Youtube sound is always a compromise. Buy the real thing.)
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post #3289 of 3307 Old 09-14-2017, 09:42 AM
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M2

Agree about the level. I could use my radio shack meter to see how loud it was. I literally used the Sheffield drum solo as the first test. -5 on the Emotive XMC-1( I know this can vary). It was crazy good, never saw a clip light. I know everyone is different, and in this price range most will not want to have to worry about power. I think thats smart. Just trying to offer some perspective that may be relevant to some.
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post #3290 of 3307 Old 09-14-2017, 12:27 PM
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*snip*

For those unfamiliar with this classic torture test album for amps, here's some cleaner versions (although Youtube sound is always a compromise. Buy the real thing.)
I have that disc, it's pretty impressive on these things with the HD 5000 amps. They aren't near the speakers though, so I've never looked to see if it clips them at sane levels. I know that I've played it back at what I'd say are realistic levels, maybe beyond. But, a drum kit gets pretty darn loud; especially in a reverberant garage like where my brother's is, lol.
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post #3291 of 3307 Old 09-14-2017, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
So, the wife and I are looking at buying a new home. As much as I wanted to say my next home would have an ideal spot for a theater room, it looks like it may not happen. But, the ceilings in the basement can be made pretty high, so that would allow for some decent sound-proofing above. However, the currently finished basement has about 12'6" in width (and over 20' in length that I could consume). I assume I'll lose some of that width to sound proofing shell / treatment, so maybe 12' of usable width.

I have two M2s already and really don't want to get rid of them. Does anyone think that putting a trio of M2s on my front-stage in 12' of width would be stupid. They'd be right up against the L/R walls pretty much, but I'd have plenty of depth to get some subs behind them and sit 12' away and have some depth behind me. Probably only get a single small row and maybe bar in a non-audiophile back-wall location, but....

I dunno, I love the house otherwise, but...this is killing me.
Wow, way to get super down on yourself for a room that shares almost identical dimensions to what I am using as my HT space. I've never once realized how crappy it is! My room is 29 ft. deep, but there have been many times ive considered walling off the back to make it just about those same dimensions. Oh ya, and I managed to fit two seated rows and a third row bar in there, so for the love of God don't fret my man. Sheesh! Haha

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post #3292 of 3307 Old 09-14-2017, 01:45 PM
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Wow, way to get super down on yourself for a room that shares almost identical dimensions to what I am using as my HT space. I've never once realized how crappy it is! My room is 29 ft. deep, but there have been many times ive considered walling off the back to make it just about those same dimensions. Oh ya, and I managed to fit two seated rows and a third row bar in there, so for the love of God don't fret my man. Sheesh! Haha
If you've done it with 12' of width, then I guess I'll sign the paperwork tonight, lol !

But seriously, thanks for the inspiration! If we do this, maybe I'll be able to get a few of y'all to visit like at 'rilla's.

I think, like I keep telling my wife, that my pipe-dreams and the basement in this place just weren't lining up. I mean, I want something like Rob Hahn's epic theater. But, the reality is that even if I did have the money for it, I'm the only one in my circle of family and friends that would care about it and that's just not enough for me to justify spending it.

Which is to say, accomplishing something like you've been able to is more realistic and right up my budget and worthiness alley! It may not be Rob's, but it's going to be awesome! Thanks! And, I'll have to hit you up for ideas when we're ready if you don't mind!
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post #3293 of 3307 Old 09-14-2017, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
If you've done it with 12' of width, then I guess I'll sign the paperwork tonight, lol !

But seriously, thanks for the inspiration! If we do this, maybe I'll be able to get a few of y'all to visit like at 'rilla's.

I think, like I keep telling my wife, that my pipe-dreams and the basement in this place just weren't lining up. I mean, I want something like Rob Hahn's epic theater. But, the reality is that even if I did have the money for it, I'm the only one in my circle of family and friends that would care about it and that's just not enough for me to justify spending it.

Which is to say, accomplishing something like you've been able to is more realistic and right up my budget and worthiness alley! It may not be Rob's, but it's going to be awesome! Thanks! And, I'll have to hit you up for ideas when we're ready if you don't mind!
By all means bud. 12' width in the room is challenging, and some more width would always be awesome but I have certainly figured out how to make (almost) the best of it and have yet to hear anyone walk away saying it's nothing less than top-class. Im with on a large space with being the only one interested in it. My friends love my space for sports and what not, but when it comes to movie time, 80% of the ones I watch, I am by myself. I kind of like it that way too actually
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post #3294 of 3307 Old 09-14-2017, 01:59 PM
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By all means bud. 12' width in the room is challenging, and some more width would always be awesome but I have certainly figured out how to make (almost) the best of it and have yet to hear anyone walk away saying it's nothing less than top-class. Im with on a large space with being the only one interested in it. My friends love my space for sports and what not, but when it comes to movie time, 80% of the ones I watch, I am by myself. I kind of like it that way too actually
Yeah, I think it'll be that way for me, too.

I'm going over to the place again tonight to remeasure some stuff. While I'm there, I'm going to pop up some panels in the current drop ceiling to see where the ductwork is. Because, the drop ceiling is at 7'6" height, but with another 2' looming up there (confirmed by seeing where the joists were in his utility room), it'll be perfect for room w/in a room.

Worse case, though, I'll just toss a crap ton of roxul up there and see if I can't dampen the drop ceiling with acoustic tiles like 'rilla did.
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post #3295 of 3307 Old 09-14-2017, 07:35 PM
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^^^ Make sure the supports for the drop ceiling will support the extra insulation. Trust me on this...

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #3296 of 3307 Old 09-14-2017, 08:23 PM
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^^^ Make sure the supports for the drop ceiling will support the extra insulation. Trust me on this...
Well, the roxul would just get shoved up in the joists and maybe tied up there somehow. But, if the acoustic tiles are a lot heavier, I can see your point to make sure the grid can handle it.

That said, went over and checked out in the ceiling and I'm a little disappointed. Looks like I may have to live with a 7'6 ceiling height where the drop ceiling is. Or, at the very most, the screen-wall will be lower than the rest of the room because of lots of duct-work up in that area.

Basically, the front 10' of the room would be dropped and the remaining 17' could be a foot or so higher. But, the people that ran their electric and gas lines didn't run them through the joists, rather they strung them underneath in some cases. So, that may complicate putting a room-within-room design up between the existing floor joists. It's a better and more consistent ceiling height than I'd have ever gotten in my current house, but maybe not my ideal. Grrr...the rest of the house and the backyard is awesome.

Well, I think I'll just deal -- saves me money, I guess, because I probably won't be attempting Atmos in 7'6 ceilings and I'll probably be making the ceiling too dead for the "bounce method" to be effective.
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post #3297 of 3307 Old 09-14-2017, 10:36 PM
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Thanks for all the info on power requirements. I don't have a problem getting big amps but I running out of circuits to put them on and trying to figure out realistic loads to expect. Even a 20amp circuit couldn't handle 3x M2 LCR if they are driven full bore. Obviously I would also be deaf but I really need to plan out what is realistic. Would an amp like an itech have power stored within for short peaks so it isn't tripping the breaker so often? Or does power pretty much flow freely strait from the wall?
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post #3298 of 3307 Old 09-15-2017, 05:45 AM
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Well, the roxul would just get shoved up in the joists and maybe tied up there somehow. But, if the acoustic tiles are a lot heavier, I can see your point to make sure the grid can handle it.

That said, went over and checked out in the ceiling and I'm a little disappointed. Looks like I may have to live with a 7'6 ceiling height where the drop ceiling is. Or, at the very most, the screen-wall will be lower than the rest of the room because of lots of duct-work up in that area.

Basically, the front 10' of the room would be dropped and the remaining 17' could be a foot or so higher. But, the people that ran their electric and gas lines didn't run them through the joists, rather they strung them underneath in some cases. So, that may complicate putting a room-within-room design up between the existing floor joists. It's a better and more consistent ceiling height than I'd have ever gotten in my current house, but maybe not my ideal. Grrr...the rest of the house and the backyard is awesome.

Well, I think I'll just deal -- saves me money, I guess, because I probably won't be attempting Atmos in 7'6 ceilings and I'll probably be making the ceiling too dead for the "bounce method" to be effective.
Oh. I thought you were going to simply pile the Roxul on top of the tiles; I have seen that done, but in at least one case, the results fell through.

Most contractors take the easiest path and drop ceiling makes it easy to drop all the lines as well. Bummer. You might see what it would take to raise them. Electric lines are probably easy and you might even be able to do it yourself; gas lines probably take a plumber.

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post #3299 of 3307 Old 09-15-2017, 12:36 PM
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Oh. I thought you were going to simply pile the Roxul on top of the tiles; I have seen that done, but in at least one case, the results fell through.

Most contractors take the easiest path and drop ceiling makes it easy to drop all the lines as well. Bummer. You might see what it would take to raise them. Electric lines are probably easy and you might even be able to do it yourself; gas lines probably take a plumber.
Yeah, I could see that...a little bass to get the ceiling moving and crash, lol.

And yes, I think since the drop ceiling was already up, when they added lights or other things (pool, outside electric) the trades just did it the easy way and strung it up there. It's annoying, but I suppose I get it...out of sight, out of mind.
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post #3300 of 3307 Old 09-15-2017, 12:41 PM
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Yeah, I think it'll be that way for me, too.

I'm going over to the place again tonight to remeasure some stuff. While I'm there, I'm going to pop up some panels in the current drop ceiling to see where the ductwork is. Because, the drop ceiling is at 7'6" height, but with another 2' looming up there (confirmed by seeing where the joists were in his utility room), it'll be perfect for room w/in a room.

Worse case, though, I'll just toss a crap ton of roxul up there and see if I can't dampen the drop ceiling with acoustic tiles like 'rilla did.
Just one more thing identical to my room. 7'6" ceiling as well, with HVAC all hithery-tithery everywhere above it preventing any type of sheetrocked option. I did the same as Rilla as well, and just slammed the space between the joists and the DC full of fluffy, front to back. I can be playing at reference levels and aside from the bass vibrating the entire house, you can't hear a thing else upstairs. I did do the just let it rest on the ceiling grid as the fluffy isn't all that heavy and it actually helped add weight to the grid to help with vibrations. My whole grid is held up with wiring screwed into the floor joists throughout the entire space so there is not sag or anything of that nature (Except for one pesky HVAC vent tile that I need to replace badly.)

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Originally Posted by uopdrmark View Post
Thanks for all the info on power requirements. I don't have a problem getting big amps but I running out of circuits to put them on and trying to figure out realistic loads to expect. Even a 20amp circuit couldn't handle 3x M2 LCR if they are driven full bore. Obviously I would also be deaf but I really need to plan out what is realistic. Would an amp like an itech have power stored within for short peaks so it isn't tripping the breaker so often? Or does power pretty much flow freely strait from the wall?
The 20amp will certainly be able to handle that for any type of content you actually plan to run through the m2's.

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