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post #1 of 92 Old 02-09-2013, 11:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Here's another stupid question about speaker wire. I getting new speaker I thought its a good time to upgrade the wire. The wire is about 15 years old and so is the banana plugs should I upgrade them?
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post #2 of 92 Old 02-09-2013, 12:03 PM
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Here's another stupid question about speaker wire. I getting new speaker I thought its a good time to upgrade the wire. The wire is about 15 years old and so is the banana plugs should I upgrade them?

The major source of degradation of speaker wire is stiffening of the insulation, which is really a cosmetics problem.

The bananna plugs free you from worrying about the wire oxidizing.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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post #3 of 92 Old 02-09-2013, 12:48 PM
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Here's another stupid question about speaker wire. I getting new speaker I thought its a good time to upgrade the wire. The wire is about 15 years old and so is the banana plugs should I upgrade them?
What is an 'upgrade' consist of? Unless your current cables are seriously undersized there's nothing to be gained.

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post #4 of 92 Old 02-09-2013, 05:28 PM
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Plenty of other forums to tell you otherwise, of course. rolleyes.gif

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post #5 of 92 Old 02-09-2013, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Pat315 View Post

Here's another stupid question about speaker wire. I getting new speaker I thought its a good time to upgrade the wire. The wire is about 15 years old and so is the banana plugs should I upgrade them?


The folks who claim they hear an audible difference in speaker cable rate the % change extremely low, 3-5%. Those folks are presenting a subjective voice not based on blind tests. Please present a budget that you have set aside for the speaker wire. I purchase speaker cable based on looks, in one system white looks better my second system I use black. I chose to spend 2% of my budget for the black cable in that system and 1.6% in the other system. My black cables sound exactly the same as my white ones.
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post #6 of 92 Old 02-09-2013, 09:41 PM
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I make my own speaker cables and make them look as cool as I want. There's a DIY speaker cable thread in this section, I learned a lot about making your own. The only tool I had to buy extra to get the job done was a cheap heat gun.

Monoprice 12awg cable, tech flex nylon sleeve (your choice in color and size), cable pants as an option (I've made cables with and without), and heat shrink tubing and of course your choice of termination; bananas, spades or bare wire.

A guy can get relative cheap speaker wire and make it look like very expensive cable, not only that, my cheap cable "sounds" like VERY expensive cable biggrin.gif

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post #7 of 92 Old 02-09-2013, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Geoff4RFC View Post

I make my own speaker cables and make them look as cool as I want. There's a DIY speaker cable thread in this section, I learned a lot about making your own. The only tool I had to buy extra to get the job done was a cheap heat gun.

Monoprice 12awg cable, tech flex nylon sleeve (your choice in color and size), cable pants as an option (I've made cables with and without), and heat shrink tubing and of course your choice of termination; bananas, spades or bare wire.

A guy can get relative cheap speaker wire and make it look like very expensive cable, not only that, my cheap cable "sounds" like VERY expensive cable biggrin.gif

Got pictures?

smile.gif
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post #8 of 92 Old 02-09-2013, 10:55 PM
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Got pictures?

smile.gif
here is a picture of my diy wires for my system

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post #9 of 92 Old 02-10-2013, 03:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Geoff4RFC View Post

I make my own speaker cables and make them look as cool as I want. There's a DIY speaker cable thread in this section, I learned a lot about making your own. The only tool I had to buy extra to get the job done was a cheap heat gun.

Monoprice 12awg cable, tech flex nylon sleeve (your choice in color and size), cable pants as an option (I've made cables with and without), and heat shrink tubing and of course your choice of termination; bananas, spades or bare wire.

A guy can get relative cheap speaker wire and make it look like very expensive cable, not only that, my cheap cable "sounds" like VERY expensive cable biggrin.gif
Where did u get the nylon sleeve?
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post #10 of 92 Old 02-10-2013, 03:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Where did u get the nylon sleeve?
What size sleeve for 14g
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post #11 of 92 Old 02-10-2013, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Geoff4RFC View Post

I make my own speaker cables and make them look as cool as I want. There's a DIY speaker cable thread in this section, I learned a lot about making your own. The only tool I had to buy extra to get the job done was a cheap heat gun.

Monoprice 12awg cable, tech flex nylon sleeve (your choice in color and size), cable pants as an option (I've made cables with and without), and heat shrink tubing and of course your choice of termination; bananas, spades or bare wire.

A guy can get relative cheap speaker wire and make it look like very expensive cable, not only that, my cheap cable "sounds" like VERY expensive cable biggrin.gif
Don't lose track of the fact that all those cosmetic additions are just that, cosmetic, and have zero effect on the sound. Not that there's anything wrong with making your cables pretty, but ugly works just as well. I don't think all the contributors in that thread are aware of that.

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post #12 of 92 Old 02-10-2013, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by carsfreak88 View Post

here is a picture of my diy wires for my system
Nice, but the amp must be sitting on the floor next to the speaker! wink.gif
(Probably for a center speaker within the same console as the amp, right?)

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post #13 of 92 Old 02-10-2013, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by carsfreak88 View Post

here is a picture of my diy wires for my system


Great job those look great!
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post #14 of 92 Old 02-10-2013, 10:06 AM
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Where did u get the nylon sleeve?

I got mine from ebay. If you go look at the "Have a look at these babies" in the speaker thread, you'll be able to see the work of others, find out specific sizing for your needs etc etc. Have fun.

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Don't lose track of the fact that all those cosmetic additions are just that, cosmetic, and have zero effect on the sound. Not that there's anything wrong with making your cables pretty, but ugly works just as well. I don't think all the contributors in that thread are aware of that.

Really? I thought that was my point. No, wait a minute, you're wrong bill. I took $60 per 100 ft roll of 12x4, slapped a cover on it with some heat shrink, stuck some banana plugs on the end and I completly changed the sound of the wire and yes, wait for it............it now sounds like $84,000. and that's only because it was my first project. My second will sound like $200,000 cable biggrin.gif

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post #15 of 92 Old 02-10-2013, 10:36 AM
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Don't forget some cable levitating stand bridge things... plenty to be gained..

Have they come up with a green marker for your CD edge equivalent for the music on my hard drive?

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post #16 of 92 Old 02-10-2013, 10:45 AM
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What size sleeve for 14g

Furryletters on eBay will have a good selection of popular sizes and colors. There are other vendors on eBay that have additional not-so-popular colors. You can go with either 1/4" or 3/8". 100 feet of 1/4" will cover about 70 feet of 14 gauge and 3/8" will cover slightly more than what you buy. Some folks like a " shorter weave " and use 1/4" if they use a patterned flex, like the Rattlesnake pattern. The size probably won't matter for a solid color weave.

The in-wall cable that Monoprice is fine but the conductors are covered in a sheath vs. covered in molded rubber. This can leave a twist pattern in the cable on the larger gauges from 14 to 10 and up. I buy my cable from KnuKoncepts. They have an eBay store and an internet-direct store as well. Their cables are molded rubber and are perfectly round and more flexible than sheathed cable.

This picture shows the sheathed 12 gauge on top and the molded 10 gauge on bottom. The twisting is not really noticeable if the TechFlex is left a little slack.



This photo shows the KnuKonceptz 10 gauge cut-away.


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post #17 of 92 Old 02-10-2013, 10:59 AM
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Nice, but the amp must be sitting on the floor next to the speaker! wink.gif
(Probably for a center speaker within the same console as the amp, right?)
yes this wire was for the center channel

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Great job those look great!
thank you

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post #18 of 92 Old 02-10-2013, 11:18 AM
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I got mine from ebay. If you go look at the "Have a look at these babies" in the speaker thread, you'll be able to see the work of others, find out specific sizing for your needs etc etc. Have fun.
Really? I thought that was my point. No, wait a minute, you're wrong bill. I took $60 per 100 ft roll of 12x4, slapped a cover on it with some heat shrink, stuck some banana plugs on the end and I completly changed the sound of the wire and yes, wait for it............it now sounds like $84,000.
The sad fact is that you're right, only what the suckers who buy high priced cables don't realize is that an $84,000 cable sounds just like a $30 cable. rolleyes.gif

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post #19 of 92 Old 02-10-2013, 01:48 PM
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Cables can and do have a certain sound signature to them..I have heard this...I just ordered a pair of anti cables from Paul Speltz and they should be here tomorrow.I am going to do an unboxing and review of them that I'll post in the speaker board...keep an eye out...smile.gif

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post #20 of 92 Old 02-10-2013, 03:35 PM
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Cables can and do have a certain sound signature to them..I have heard this...I just ordered a pair of anti cables from Paul Speltz and they should be here tomorrow.I am going to do an unboxing and review of them that I'll post in the speaker board...keep an eye out...smile.gif
Unless you conduct a properly controlled double-blind testing session, and then post repeatable verifiable measurements, don't bother. That is the only scientifically valid method of making comparisons, and this is the Audio Visual Science forum.

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post #21 of 92 Old 02-10-2013, 04:11 PM
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Unless you conduct a properly controlled double-blind testing session, and then post repeatable verifiable measurements, don't bother. That is the only scientifically valid method of making comparisons, and this is the Audio Visual Science forum.
My video review will just be for fun...not a critical test...and I would love to know if you believe in god...if you do Prove it...wink.gif...not everything in life has to have proof...its human nature to need to see in order to believe...wink.gif

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post #22 of 92 Old 02-10-2013, 04:58 PM
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My video review will just be for fun...not a critical test...and I would love to know if you believe in god...if you do Prove it...wink.gif...not everything in life has to have proof...its human nature to need to see in order to believe...wink.gif

I think there may be a "slight" difference here; to believe in God requires faith, faith is the substance of things not seen, the evidence of things hoped for.

I don't see where faith plays into how two different types of cable can change the sound when it's job is to carry current from the source to the output. A different speaker may produce a different sound, a cables job is to allow current to flow from one place to another.

I personally have faith in the work of the cross, I don't have faith that this cable or that will change the way my speaker sounds, sorry.

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post #23 of 92 Old 02-10-2013, 05:05 PM
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I think there may be a "slight" difference here; to believe in God requires faith, faith is the substance of things not seen, the evidence of things hoped for.

I don't see where faith plays into how two different types of cable can change the sound when it's job is to carry current from the source to the output. A different speaker may produce a different sound, a cables job is to allow current to flow from one place to another.

I personally have faith in the work of the cross, I don't have faith that this cable or that will change the way my speaker sounds, sorry.

Its a metaphore... And you just proved my point...thank you...smile.gif

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post #24 of 92 Old 02-10-2013, 07:54 PM
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Its a metaphore... And you just proved my point...thank you...smile.gif

Really, because learning how to read english and having a post H.S. education leads me to understand that your statement "Cables can and do have a certain sound signature to them" and me saying speakers make the sound and cables just carry the current to them so they can, have no "point" connection at all, but instead an indifference.

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post #25 of 92 Old 02-10-2013, 08:13 PM
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Really, because learning how to read english and having a post H.S. education leads me to understand that your statement "Cables can and do have a certain sound signature to them" and me saying speakers make the sound and cables just carry the current to them so they can, have no "point" connection at all, but instead an indifference.
Bashing doesn't effect me and if you want to say something to me send me a P.M....and I won't try to convince you...cables do have sonic differenses...BUT the differenses are often small and equipment dependant.

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post #26 of 92 Old 02-10-2013, 09:27 PM
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What's always struck me as funny is that, as expensive as the high-end cable market is, I've never once seen actual empirical measurements between one cable and the next. A cynical observation would note it's probably so said cable manufacturers don't have to try and explain away identical measurements between their cables and the original cables, and so the guy who just spent $7,500 on a power cable doesn't have to deal with active denial that he spent his money on something that imparted absolutely no measurable difference. The descriptive words for the expensive cables also tend to run the same, regardless of what it's for (headphones, speakers, interconnects, power, whatever) - they add "sparkle" or "airiness" or any of the group of words that can be bluntly summarized as "elf farts". Light, delicate, and musical.

If cables do make a difference, I think it's less than (or at the most, equal to) the components in the equipment make - after all, if cable which carries a current can change sound, then surely the differences in one manufacturer's batch of resistors or capacitors and a later would also cause a change in the sound? That never seems to come up, though.

I'd say buy whatever decent set of cables seems good to you - or for those unfortunately stuck with a wife whose aesthetic demands outweigh all else, whatever she likes.
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post #27 of 92 Old 02-10-2013, 09:36 PM
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What's always struck me as funny is that, as expensive as the high-end cable market is, I've never once seen actual empirical measurements between one cable and the next. A cynical observation would note it's probably so said cable manufacturers don't have to try and explain away identical measurements between their cables and the original cables, and so the guy who just spent $7,500 on a power cable doesn't have to deal with active denial that he spent his money on something that imparted absolutely no measurable difference. The descriptive words for the expensive cables also tend to run the same, regardless of what it's for (headphones, speakers, interconnects, power, whatever) - they add "sparkle" or "airiness" or any of the group of words that can be bluntly summarized as "elf farts". Light, delicate, and musical.

If cables do make a difference, I think it's less than (or at the most, equal to) the components in the equipment make - after all, if cable which carries a current can change sound, then surely the differences in one manufacturer's batch of resistors or capacitors and a later would also cause a change in the sound? That never seems to come up, though.

I'd say buy whatever decent set of cables seems good to you - or for those unfortunately stuck with a wife whose aesthetic demands outweigh all else, whatever she likes.
Well said...and the price that these multi thousand dollar cables are rediculious. As for me the most I've ever spent on cable was 100 dollars but I started way at the cheap low end and as I moved up and tried all sorts of cable I notices differences through most of them.

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post #28 of 92 Old 02-11-2013, 06:00 AM
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What's always struck me as funny is that, as expensive as the high-end cable market is, I've never once seen actual empirical measurements between one cable and the next.
I have. There are three factors that determine cable performance: resistance, capacitance and inductance. That's it, anything and everything else that the cable mountebanks claim influences the result is pure unadulterated bunk.
Where resistance is concerned all cables of the same material and gauge will have exactly the same resistance.
Where exotic materials are concerned there's nothing to be gained. Silver, the most commonly used 'high end' conductor has 5% less resistance than copper. But to get the same results with copper as silver you simply use either 5% larger gauge, or 5% shorter length.
Capacitance and inductance are affected by the size and dielectric properties of the insulation. But more expensive insulations work no better than inexpensive insulations.
There are measurable differences in capacitance and inductance between different cables. But those differences are never related to price. Some of the lowest measured capacitance and inductance are found in the least expensive wire available, while some of the worst measured capacitance and inductance are found in the most expensive wire available.
As for what really counts, can you hear a difference, in blind testing even self-proclaimed Golden Ears have never been able to correctly identify cables by brand, price or performance with any higher degree of accuracy than pure chance. That's because even though differences can be measured the measuring gear has a degree of accuracy a few orders of magnitude higher than the human ear. When a cable is so poor that it's audible it's simply defective.

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post #29 of 92 Old 02-11-2013, 06:22 AM
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Plenty of other forums to tell you otherwise, of course. rolleyes.gif

Yes, copper gets old and tired from all those electrons flowing through it. ;-)

Of course one irony is that since audio is AC, there is only negligible net flow of electrons. The same electrons have been shuttling back and forth for years!

Around here most of the power lines were put in the the 1950s and have been in place for over 60 years. I've noticed that power lines from the 1920s and 1930s often have their insulation falling off due to old age.

Oh and a hearty +1 to what Bill says in post #28.
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post #30 of 92 Old 02-11-2013, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

I have. There are three factors that determine cable performance: resistance, capacitance and inductance. That's it, anything and everything else that the cable mountebanks claim influences the result is pure unadulterated bunk.
Where resistance is concerned all cables of the same material and gauge will have exactly the same resistance.
Where exotic materials are concerned there's nothing to be gained. Silver, the most commonly used 'high end' conductor has 5% less resistance than copper. But to get the same results with copper as silver you simply use either 5% larger gauge, or 5% shorter length.
Capacitance and inductance are affected by the size and dielectric properties of the insulation. But more expensive insulations work no better than inexpensive insulations.
There are measurable differences in capacitance and inductance between different cables. But those differences are never related to price. Some of the lowest measured capacitance and inductance are found in the least expensive wire available, while some of the worst measured capacitance and inductance are found in the most expensive wire available.
As for what really counts, can you hear a difference, in blind testing even self-proclaimed Golden Ears have never been able to correctly identify cables by brand, price or performance with any higher degree of accuracy than pure chance. That's because even though differences can be measured the measuring gear has a degree of accuracy a few orders of magnitude higher than the human ear. When a cable is so poor that it's audible it's simply defective.

Wait minute! I was told there'd be no math! wink.gif

In high school science, we called the three properties of impedance the R.I.C. or "rice rule"...resistance, inductance, and capacitance...resistance being the main culprit. Keep it under 5% and you're fine. Oxygen-free copper, silver, Monster cables? Go for it if it makes you feel any better. Your money. Diminished returns, thy name is speaker wire.

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