Axiom Speaker Problems/Issues...Help Needed - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 89 Old 02-13-2013, 03:30 PM - Thread Starter
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About a month ago, I had Jeff Meier (accucalhd.com) come by my house on his Southeast tour and cal my Panasonic 65VT25 plasma. When he was done with it, we moved on to the audio system. I figured...piece of cake, we will be done in an hour or so. As did he. Well...this has turned into a month long ordeal, culminating with me sending my speakers back to Axiom to be "repaired" under warranty. Here is what I have...all of these were purchased in late 2007 and have had minimal to average use (not used every day by any means).

Pair of Axiom M60 Towers
W150 On Wall/In Wall Center Speaker
Pair of QS2 Surrounds

We spent a couple hours trying to figure out what was going on with my Axiom speakers. Jeff (an unbelievably talented and smart guy) could not understand or figure out what he was seeing...and he was utilizing tens of thousands of dollars worth of test equipment. Please keep in mind that I am no audiophile, so these issues have likely been prevalent since I bought them, but I never noticed it. Here are Jeff's comments.

"M60 Tower Speakers - The left and right channel speakers have about a 10db drop at around 200Hz.
W150 Center Channel - There is a large error in the high frequency performance of the center channel speaker. The tweeters are down about 15db from the nominal level at 500Hz..

These levels of error are outside of the Onkyo receivers ability to correct in either manual or with Audyssey at anywhere near correct frequency response."

It was obvious after we started digging into it that the center speaker just sounded muffled...almost like someone had a pillow over it!!! He couldn't believe how bad these three speakers performed on his tests and his recommendation was for me to send them to Axiom for repair.

Axiom agreed to repair them (even though they were 6 months past the five year warranty). I've now been without my speakers for over 3 weeks and of course, haven't been able to watch TV on my Panasonic as a result of not having a front sound stage.

I got the emails from Axiom last night with their "sweeps" of both my two towers, and the center channel. According to them, the towers tested "perfectly." The W150 had a bad tweeter, but Jeff insists that one tweeter would not have caused the horrible performance we measured in my basement. The "sweep" on the W150 after the tweeter was replaced also looked "perfect" according to Axiom.

So....what should I do guys? Do you have any recommendations or experience with Axiom's products? I have to wonder if my speakers had major issues, but Axiom isn't telling me the whole story as to not ruin their name brand. I have not gotten them back yet (they won't ship until tomorrow) so it will be a week before I can hook them back up and see how they sound and run Audyssey again to see how it does.

I'm really p*ssed because I spent nearly $2,000 in 2007 on these Axioms and my HSU Research sub (which I love). Any help or guidance would be greatly appreciated. I have all the plots/sweeps if someone would like to see them. Thanks in advance!
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post #2 of 89 Old 02-13-2013, 03:39 PM
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You may want to read through this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1337283/any-thoughts-on-axiom-audio-speakers

Most likely these speakers are working as designed. I would sell them and move on.
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post #3 of 89 Old 02-13-2013, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
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I can't express how bad the center sounded before it was sent off. How I didn't notice it...I don't know. But whether running the Audyssey test tone or Jeff's test tone, as soon as it would swap from Left Front to Center, the difference was unreal. Literally like there was a pillow over the speaker. I just find it hard to believe that one tweeter (which both were working when I sent it to them) could be causing this pathetic performance.

One interesting note...after the test my wife said that she always had a hard time hearing the dialogue in movies but thought "that's how it was supposed to be." Stupid me...I should have addressed this a long time ago. I have no idea how I missed such pitiful performance from this center speaker.
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post #4 of 89 Old 02-13-2013, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSUMatt1514 View Post

I can't express how bad the center sounded before it was sent off. How I didn't notice it...I don't know. But whether running the Audyssey test tone or Jeff's test tone, as soon as it would swap from Left Front to Center, the difference was unreal. Literally like there was a pillow over the speaker. I just find it hard to believe that one tweeter (which both were working when I sent it to them) could be causing this pathetic performance.

One interesting note...after the test my wife said that she always had a hard time hearing the dialogue in movies but thought "that's how it was supposed to be." Stupid me...I should have addressed this a long time ago. I have no idea how I missed such pitiful performance from this center speaker.

Don't beat yourself up on this. Per the link above, there are issues with the dual tweeter design of your center. I know Axiom will say this is how the speaker is designed, and your not the first to complain about it. If you like the M60's you could always try the VP160 or the VP100. The VP160's don't have the dual tweeter design and have, what I feel, is a preferred design, but at the same time it appears the M60's are lacking as well based on what Jeff measured and it might be a good time to something different.
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post #5 of 89 Old 02-13-2013, 05:17 PM - Thread Starter
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PM me and I will send you his plots.

BTW...what are you referring to with their "dual tweeter design"? Do you mean not enough tweeter such that it sounds muffled?
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post #6 of 89 Old 02-13-2013, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSUMatt1514 View Post

PM me and I will send you his plots.

BTW...what are you referring to with their "dual tweeter design"? Do you mean not enough tweeter such that it sounds muffled?

The Axiom W150 has dual tweeters that flank each end of the speaker:



This is a pretty unusual design and most likely is the cause of the issue you have with hearing dialogue and with the measurements Jeff did. In the link above Danny Ritchie goes into a lot of detail with measurements as to why this is a bad idea.

A more preferred design for a horizontal speaker is this one below:



This article explains what to look for in a horizontal center channel:
http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/center-channel-designs
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post #7 of 89 Old 02-13-2013, 05:32 PM
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I do have to give props to Axiom for fixing your tweeter outside of warranty. Do you have to pay any of the shipping costs?
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post #8 of 89 Old 02-13-2013, 06:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Had to pay the shipping to them (at their discounted FedEx rate) but they are shipping them back to me on their dime.
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post #9 of 89 Old 02-13-2013, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Any suggestions on where I could sell them? Is their name reputable enough that I could potentially move them locally on Craig's List and avoid shipping?

This whole ordeal really, really ticks me off...

I fully expect the center to sound like crap when I get it back. I actually found a thread on Axiom's website where someone was complaining about a "muffled" sound from their 150 model (not sure which one) Axiom center. He had it jacked up +5 or +6 dB on his receiver...which is I guess what I'm going to have to do if I can't sell these.

I checked Ebay and there is only ONE pair of M60s on Ebay with no bids...
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post #10 of 89 Old 02-13-2013, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSUMatt1514 View Post

Any suggestions on where I could sell them? Is their name reputable enough that I could potentially move them locally on Craig's List and avoid shipping?

This whole ordeal really, really ticks me off...

I fully expect the center to sound like crap when I get it back. I actually found a thread on Axiom's website where someone was complaining about a "muffled" sound from their 150 model (not sure which one) Axiom center. He had it jacked up +5 or +6 dB on his receiver...which is I guess what I'm going to have to do if I can't sell these.

I checked Ebay and there is only ONE pair of M60s on Ebay with no bids...

I don't know how well the Axiom name is known where you live since they are only sold on the web vs a Definitive, Klipsch, B&W, etc. Probably worth a try and there is also Audiogon and the classifieds here at AVS, Audioholocs, Home Theater Shack, etfc. I sold my Hsu sub here at AVS in 24 hours and had multiple offers. So you never know smile.gif
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post #11 of 89 Old 02-13-2013, 06:39 PM
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I went through this issue too. That center (I had VP150) is IMO and from personal experience one of the worst centers you could possible buy. It looks cool and cool sells, just like dual or quad tweeters all over, it looks awesome but doesn't sound great. They do some odd stuff that most companys don't do. The M60s midrange is ran full range with no hpf or lpf filters, the dual tweeters cause cancellation if you move even slightly off center to left or right. The xovers are pretty bad too, alot of short cuts and cheap low quality parts. The

I wouldn't even waste money on going with the VP100 or 160. Because my view on that is they sold you a shoddy poor designed center for $400 plus, why would you give them any more money? Like Ack said, ebay, AVS classifieds, Audiogon and CL. I sold all my stuff through CL but it wasn't for the Axiom name just someone looking for some cheap speakers as a starter system.

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Originally Posted by LSUMatt1514 View Post

So....what should I do guys? Do you have any recommendations or experience with Axiom's products? I have to wonder if my speakers had major issues, but Axiom isn't telling me the whole story as to not ruin their name brand.

Many Many people have been bringing up the similar issues but the Axiom guys blow it off as just pure Trolling. Axiom doesn't take kindly to ANY kind of critizism of its products and have dropped advertising from many sites that don't properly push the product. They are a marketing driven company and will do just about anything to make you believe they make unbeatable speakers.
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post #12 of 89 Old 02-13-2013, 06:49 PM - Thread Starter
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My wife had a good idea...since the basement is already pre-wired and the "hole" in the wall under the flat screen for the in wall/on wall W150, leave them all in the house when we sell it. An extra selling point for the house and then I'll turn around and get something new next year! :-) It's not often your wife recommends spending money on new speakers! :-) Not bad!!!!
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post #13 of 89 Old 02-13-2013, 06:58 PM
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Any suggestions on where I could sell them? Is their name reputable enough that I could potentially move them locally on Craig's List and avoid shipping?

This whole ordeal really, really ticks me off...

I fully expect the center to sound like crap when I get it back. I actually found a thread on Axiom's website where someone was complaining about a "muffled" sound from their 150 model (not sure which one) Axiom center. He had it jacked up +5 or +6 dB on his receiver...which is I guess what I'm going to have to do if I can't sell these.

I checked Ebay and there is only ONE pair of M60s on Ebay with no bids...

Hi-

Sorry you are having issues with the Axioms. May I ask a question? Did you like these prior to the calibrator paying a visit? If yes, then I don't think I would worry about it and enjoy as you may have a case of "oh crap", the calibrator states there are issues. If you liked them prior to the visit I would continue to use them.

Now saying that, I had your exact speakers with my first set-up. I try to stay out of Axiom debates as many like them so fine. But in my opinion, and I was a newbie and learning, even I could tell these speakers were brittle, bright and fatiguing. I kept them past the 30 days (big mistake) as the boxes got wet in a rainstorm on delivery, and I tried to convince myself they were okay but to me they were not and music was horrible.

As I have said before it was a learning experience. The lesson was stop reading internet reviews so much and try to go listen on your own. Also, IDs are not the magic spell like many claim. You will learn where IDs will cost you is when you try to sell them. In general, IDs are going to get a lot less upon sale than a name brand. I don't care what anyone states, this is fact.

I almost gave mine away in a yard sale just to get rid of them. No one wanted them on Craigslist.

I hope you can start over, listen to many different brands of speakers. And form your own opinions. Maybe start with L/R and add center later and go for a bit higher up in the food chain by taking your time.

Good Luck on the sale if you decide to list them...

Rick

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post #14 of 89 Old 02-13-2013, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSUMatt1514 View Post

My wife had a good idea...since the basement is already pre-wired and the "hole" in the wall under the flat screen for the in wall/on wall W150, leave them all in the house when we sell it. An extra selling point for the house and then I'll turn around and get something new next year! :-) It's not often your wife recommends spending money on new speakers! :-) Not bad!!!!

She is a keeper smile.gif Great idea and helps you to move on to the next best thing. Speakers for me are more of a journey and you just move on to something different and learn along the way.
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post #15 of 89 Old 02-13-2013, 07:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I was a newbie when I bought them. I did hours of research and convinced myself on the Axioms without hearing them in person first. When I bought them, I envisioned a lot of basement parties and those haven't materialized like I thought (getting old and don't have time any more), so I haven't listened to a ton of music in the basement. Mainly TV, Sports, and Movies.

I had no idea of the apparent problems until the calibrator pointed them out to me. However, the fact that my wife thought something was wrong with the center but never said anything, was alarming. I guess I have chalk this up to newbie experience and a lesson learned.

I will go with a proven, established brand next time. My first thoughts were Definitive, but I've got plenty of time for research.
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post #16 of 89 Old 02-13-2013, 07:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quick question...If I recall correctly, these Axiom speakers (Towers, Center, and Surrounds) are all 6 ohm speakers. I believe the only two option on my Onkyo receiver are to set it at 4 ohms or 8 ohms. Which should I use with the Axioms, which are a 6 ohm load? 4 or 8?

Thanks guys...y'all have been great in a very short time tonight!!!
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post #17 of 89 Old 02-13-2013, 07:22 PM
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Yeap...I sold my 6 month old Axioms at a considerable loss...the guy who bought mine was happy in making this deal because of what he paid.... I'm sure they'll serve him well. I don't agree that ID cast a magic spell but if you do your reasearch and make the right decision that's what matters in the end....that your happy.smile.gif

FYI: Here are the comments of member who just recently bought his Axioms last summer and has since moved to another ID brand....but for the most part Axioms weakest link remain their CC designs.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/772081/the-official-aperion-thread/6240#post_22911464

Old Indian proverb: We don't inherit the earth from our ancestors, but we borrow it from our children!

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post #18 of 89 Old 02-13-2013, 07:44 PM
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It is well known that a M60 (let alone both of them) doesn't normally measure 10db down at 200 Hz. If Axiom sweeped them OK, most likely it is a negative interaction with your room. That is a very common condition that can often be alleviated or minimized with changes in placement.or room treatments. With my Axiom HT, Audyssey had no trouble making minor calibration adjustments for my odd-shaped room that tends to be friendlier to sound propagation.

I don't have a 150 so I can't comment, except it seems strange that it never bothered you over 5 years until a calibrator showed up.

TAM
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post #19 of 89 Old 02-13-2013, 07:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm a newbie and you are right...I really didn't notice the muffled sound of the center until Jeff pointed it out to me during the test. It was so bad that he didn't believe it at first but eventually said he had never heard a center sound so poorly. Now it is obvious and I can't forget the fact that it is not right/optimal and is just a poor poor design. I know there is a problem now and it bothers me (I'm a perfectionist). I will just deal with it until we buy a new house and I will get a new setup.
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post #20 of 89 Old 02-13-2013, 08:00 PM
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Ref the link above, scroll down down a couple of posts to where Rustolem posts where he adds, that his buddy found that those Axioms were just perfect in his larger, open room.

Rooms make a big difference with many setups & often is an overriding factor on how they perform. Unfortunately, speakers often get the blame regardless of brand, when it is often their interaction with the space that they are placed...

TAM
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post #21 of 89 Old 02-13-2013, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex-labdriver View Post

Ref the link above, scroll down down a couple of posts to where Rustolem posts where he adds, that his buddy found that those Axioms were just perfect in his larger, open room.

Rooms make a big difference with many setups & often is an overriding factor on how they perform. Unfortunately, speakers often get the blame regardless of brand, when it is often their interaction with the space that they are placed...

TAM

True but you have to admit Axiom's center speaker with 2 tweeters is definitely unconventional lol

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #22 of 89 Old 02-13-2013, 10:23 PM
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I can't comment on their CC speaker as I don't have one. I'm space challenged & use one of another brand that I already owned that fits my space. It is not exactly timbre matched but I hear no detrimental effects in real world useage.

I'm not a speaker design expert so whether or not it is unconventional I don't know & it doesn't concern me. I plug my system in, run Audyssey until it is happy & then enjoy - simple as that. & it all sounds good to me.

For the OP, if you have further queries, please join the Axiom Forum at their website. You will get more meaningful assistance & advise there...

TAM
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post #23 of 89 Old 02-13-2013, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex-labdriver View Post

I can't comment on their CC speaker as I don't have one. I'm space challenged & use one of another brand that I already owned that fits my space. It is not exactly timbre matched but I hear no detrimental effects in real world useage.

I'm not a speaker design expert so whether or not it is unconventional I don't know & it doesn't concern me. I plug my system in, run Audyssey until it is happy & then enjoy - simple as that. & it all sounds good to me.

For the OP, if you have further queries, please join the Axiom Forum at their website. You will get more meaningful assistance & advise there...

TAM

Just a question? What makes joining Axiom more meaningful? This thread has many current and former owners. Is moving to the land of milk and honey website where all posters state how fabulous a speaker is and negative talk is frowned upon or gasp deleted more subjective? I don't have a problem at all if someone loves Axiom. We are all after the same thing.

I just don't understand the meaningful comment. Sorry.....

Rick

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post #24 of 89 Old 02-13-2013, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex-labdriver View Post

I can't comment on their CC speaker as I don't have one. I'm space challenged & use one of another brand that I already owned that fits my space. It is not exactly timbre matched but I hear no detrimental effects in real world useage.

I'm not a speaker design expert so whether or not it is unconventional I don't know & it doesn't concern me. I plug my system in, run Audyssey until it is happy & then enjoy - simple as that. & it all sounds good to me.

For the OP, if you have further queries, please join the Axiom Forum at their website. You will get more meaningful assistance & advise there...

TAM

I honestly doubt you'll get more "meaningful" assistance there as a lot of the axiomites I've dealt with there clearly believes there could be nothing wrong with Axiom products. rolleyes.gif

Regarding room placement, I'm sure someone like Jeff Meier had already advised him on proper placement and such.

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #25 of 89 Old 02-14-2013, 05:31 AM - Thread Starter
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1. I appreciate all the feedback and advice here and don't believe I would get the same feedback from the "sunshine pumpers" on Axioms website
2. Jeff Meier did anything and everything to fix the problem (checking the crossover, repositioning the speakers, etc.)...they still bombed out
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post #26 of 89 Old 02-14-2013, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSUMatt1514 View Post

I'm a newbie and you are right...I really didn't notice the muffled sound of the center until Jeff pointed it out to me during the test. It was so bad that he didn't believe it at first but eventually said he had never heard a center sound so poorly. Now it is obvious and I can't forget the fact that it is not right/optimal and is just a poor poor design. I know there is a problem now and it bothers me (I'm a perfectionist). I will just deal with it until we buy a new house and I will get a new setup.

I never realized how bad the VP150 was until I heard some other CC's in my own room. I've tried out the VP150 in several rooms and it just never worked out. I ended up replacing it with the Arx A2 CC for less than half the price of the Axiom model. Everything is much better. I don't buy into what Ex-Lab said about its room dependant. Its just a bad CC, this center channel constantly comes up with negative responses. Its just a bad design.

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Just a question? What makes joining Axiom more meaningful? This thread has many current and former owners. Is moving to the land of milk and honey website where all posters state how fabulous a speaker is and negative talk is frowned upon or gasp deleted more subjective? I don't have a problem at all if someone loves Axiom. We are all after the same thing.

I just don't understand the meaningful comment. Sorry.....

Rick

I can answer that. No opposing view points, no questioning the products quality, sound, build, components ect.... Never recommending another brand over the Axiom or even suggesting that there might be a better option or value. They view this kind of thread as Trolling, Stressful, and unnecessary. I would not be surprised to see them restart the thread on the Axiom forum so they can all complain about how we are trashing such a wonderful respectable brand like Axiom.
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1. I appreciate all the feedback and advice here and don't believe I would get the same feedback from the "sunshine pumpers" on Axioms website
2. Jeff Meier did anything and everything to fix the problem (checking the crossover, repositioning the speakers, etc.)...they still bombed out

1. You'll more than like will not be welcomed to the Axiom forum and will be viewed probably as a troll and attacked gang style if you post over there.
2. Jeff will be demonized by the Axiomites and will call him names, say he's not a true professional and then proceed to post all the awards Axioms has purchased and say those are the REAL professionals.
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post #27 of 89 Old 02-14-2013, 08:50 AM
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Axiomites are upstanding and honest people from what I have read on the axiom site, but we here at the avs forum, not so much, as I have read on the axiom forums. I have read things Like "Depends on whether you visit avsforum and read the Apple Dumpling Gang comments. They took turns dropping M22's on their feet and have been pissed since", or "Far more than any other site i've attended, AVS really attracts alot of idiots and flamers. There are some more informed folk of course, but they can be found at other more cordial audio sites which are better places to converse with them". I don't think we at the avs forum are living up to the axiomites expectations. smile.gif
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post #28 of 89 Old 02-14-2013, 09:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is what I would love to do...

1. Buy a good used Center Channel (recommendations welcome and would prefer used...see items #3 below) and lose the W150 until we buy a new house
2. Fab a bracket/shelf for the new Center Channel - This is necessary since my media rack is in a closet, with only one HDMI out of the reciever to the TV (this is why the W150 was an attractive option in the beginning...aesthetics) and I have a rather large hole in the wall for the W150 to "slide into." I will need to come up with some configuration/bracket/shelf to temporarily mount the used Center (that will look presentable) and doesn't require me to patch the hole in the drywall for the W150, since I plan on leaving the W150 in the house when we move.
3. Leave both the used Center Channel and the set of five Axioms for the next person that purchases our house since all the pre-wiring is done and it may help us sell the house.


So...I need to design a bracket/shelf to hold a standard Center, build the bracket/shelf, and mount it so that it doesn't ruin the opening/bracket currently in place for the W150. Clear as mud? :-)
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post #29 of 89 Old 02-14-2013, 09:29 AM
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I always wondered why axiomites were so willing to audition speakers for people. Was there more to the story or was it just out of the goodness of their heart. I had asked the question in avs sometime ago. Someone replied asking if it was that had to believe that someone would audition speakers with no hidden agenda. Then I read a post from this year "Simply email Axiom with the name under which your friend's order was placed along with your name and email address. A few weeks after the trial period has expired Axiom will issue you an Axiom dollar certificate which can be applied against all future Axiom purchases.". Nothing wrong with that but then you will only push axiom products which might not be the best thing for an OP and his or her needs. smile.gif
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post #30 of 89 Old 02-14-2013, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Would this be a decent, cost effective option to bridge me over to my next speaker purpose...

http://www.amazon.com/Polk-Audio-Center-Channel-Speaker/dp/B0018QROM2

Its the Polk CS10. Someone is selling one locally on Craig's List. Again, this is not a permanent solution but merely to get me by for the next year or so until we move, and get me free of this W150.
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