JTR Noesis 228HT - The best speaker you never heard of for ~ $1200 pricepoint. - Page 20 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #571 of 600 Old 05-31-2015, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Sure, go read the thread where we talked about it. It's all in the thread.
Read it, never saw the above answered in detail. Can you provide a link to the specific post?

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post #572 of 600 Old 06-01-2015, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Read it, never saw the above answered in detail. Can you provide a link to the specific post?

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Curious about this as well. I see "double blind" thrown around here a lot, but doing so with speakers is far from trivial.

Theater room: Sony VPL HW30ES, DIY 100" screen with Seymour Centerstage XD, 5 Revel M105, 2 JBL Studio 210, 4 SVS SB12-NSD, Anthem MRX-300
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post #573 of 600 Old 06-02-2015, 08:21 AM
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Curious about this as well. I see "double blind" thrown around here a lot, but doing so with speakers is far from trivial.
It's a near impossible task---hence my curiosity in these ongoing claims. If someone was so inclined there are a variety of ways to influence/bias a casual(single blind) listening session toward one design or another. This could even manifest itself subconsciously. The "host of a test" may feel they have no bias at all...but that is just ignoring our inherent human nature.. "Double Blind" would eliminate this which is why it is often considered the "holy grail" for serious product comparisons.

We'll probably be forced to double our warehouse space this year and with that we get much more office space too(we're in a modular style building). Jim and I would LOVE to have a dedicated 7.2 system that would allow some type of bias control for demos and comparisons. But anyone familiar with this understands hurdles involved. So I'm hoping to understand how this was accomplished for the session referenced above.

Here is the holy grail...drool...

http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2010/0...andardise.html

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post #574 of 600 Old 06-02-2015, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
It's a near impossible task---hence my curiosity in these ongoing claims. If someone was so inclined there are a variety of ways to influence/bias a casual(single blind) listening session toward one design or another. This could even manifest itself subconsciously. The "host of a test" may feel they have no bias at all...but that is just ignoring our inherent human nature.. "Double Blind" would eliminate this which is why it is often considered the "holy grail" for serious product comparisons.

We'll probably be forced to double our warehouse space this year and with that we get much more office space too(we're in a modular style building). Jim and I would LOVE to have a dedicated 7.2 system that would allow some type of bias control for demos and comparisons. But anyone familiar with this understands hurdles involved. So I'm hoping to understand how this was accomplished for the session referenced above.

Here is the holy grail...drool...

http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2010/0...andardise.html

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Yes, and note it's a SINGLE speaker, not a pair as is the custom at all the GTG's. I discovered this little tidbit at home before I realized that's how the spinorama works. I was met with stares of "that's stupid" at the last GTG when I suggested listening to a single speaker at a time. I just discovered the other day watching this video
that it's the way the spinorama works, I had always assumed it was stereo, so it was nice to see what I discovered validated. It is the best way to hear differences in speakers in my personal experience. Far better than stereo.

The video above is very good btw and worth watching(although I watched in 2x speed )
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post #575 of 600 Old 06-02-2015, 09:01 AM
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Yes, and note it's a SINGLE speaker, not a pair as is the custom at all the GTG's. I discovered this little tidbit at home before I realized that's how the spinorama works. I was met with stares of "that's stupid" at the last GTG when I suggested listening to a single speaker at a time. I just discovered the other day watching this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM that it's the way the spinorama works, I had always assumed it was stereo, so it was nice to see what I discovered validated. It is the best way to hear differences in speakers in my personal experience. Far better than stereo.

The video above is very good btw and worth watching(although I watched in 2x speed )

I don't think is is usually so much "spinorama" as it is ignorance. Now I wouldn't put "spin" outside of the intended scope of say a manufacturers tests and that is why the NRC in Canada with their anechoic chamber was such a good idea (at least for baseline measurements). The human factor is the most interesting to me and it would be great if there was a 3rd party facility like Harmans that could be used to test speakers.

Alas, we live in a society where the truth is very difficult to ascertain so I prefer the trial and error method in my room and with my ears with all of my limitations, flaws and biases.

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post #576 of 600 Old 06-02-2015, 09:09 AM
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I don't think is is usually so much "spinorama" as it is ignorance. Now I wouldn't put "spin" outside of the intended scope of say a manufacturers tests and that is why the NRC in Canada with their anechoic chamber was such a good idea (at least for baseline measurements).
Rob, typically your posts are very clear, but I have no idea what point you're trying to get across here .
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post #577 of 600 Old 06-02-2015, 09:25 AM
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Rob, typically your posts are very clear, but I have no idea what point you're trying to get across here .
Really, you think my posts are typically clear?

All I was sayin is that the Harman facility is very nice but, it's purpose is to validate Harman designs, not objectively compare theirs to others. It would be great if an objective 3rd party (like Stereophile ) would perform DB tests on loudspeakers. The trick is how to fund such a thing. NRC was a good effort but they ended up having their own issues hence the non-quoted part of my post where I prefer my own seriously flawed methodology.

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post #578 of 600 Old 06-02-2015, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Yes, and note it's a SINGLE speaker, not a pair as is the custom at all the GTG's. I discovered this little tidbit at home before I realized that's how the spinorama works. I was met with stares of "that's stupid" at the last GTG when I suggested listening to a single speaker at a time.
I never heard you suggest this? I actually think it is a good idea. If we ever do a GTG again, we should give this a shot. I have heard a little noise about a Single 8's GTG, but no conformation yet!
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post #579 of 600 Old 06-02-2015, 12:16 PM
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I never heard you suggest this? I actually think it is a good idea. If we ever do a GTG again, we should give this a shot. I have heard a little noise about a Single 8's GTG, but no conformation yet!
Yeah, I did to a couple of people but gave up when I saw the level of interest(or lack of ). I discovered the trick when I had the Reaction Audio speakers in my room before that GTG. It's remarkable how revealing it is compared to swapping stereo pairs.

A Single 8's GTG? The Single 8 is a great little speaker, but not sure it's worthy of it's own GTG
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post #580 of 600 Old 06-02-2015, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Really, you think my posts are typically clear?

All I was sayin is that the Harman facility is very nice but, it's purpose is to validate Harman designs, not objectively compare theirs to others. It would be great if an objective 3rd party (like Stereophile ) would perform DB tests on loudspeakers. The trick is how to fund such a thing. NRC was a good effort but they ended up having their own issues hence the non-quoted part of my post where I prefer my own seriously flawed methodology.
Got it. That was better
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post #581 of 600 Old 06-02-2015, 12:36 PM
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Yeah, I did to a couple of people but gave up when I saw the level of interest(or lack of ). I discovered the trick when I had the Reaction Audio speakers in my room before that GTG. It's remarkable how revealing it is compared to swapping stereo pairs.

A Single 8's GTG? The Single 8 is a great little speaker, but not sure it's worthy of it's own GTG
Worthy is in the eye of the beholder. Having used one as a center channel speaker in my system for a month, I think they would hold their own over 90Hz or so depending upon positioning.

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post #582 of 600 Old 06-02-2015, 12:38 PM
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Worthy is in the eye of the beholder. Having used one as a center channel speaker in my system for a month, I think they would hold their own over 90Hz or so depending upon positioning.
See? Now THIS is how GTG's get started!
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post #583 of 600 Old 06-02-2015, 12:52 PM
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All I was sayin is that the Harman facility is very nice but, it's purpose is to validate Harman designs, not objectively compare theirs to others.
FWIW, they do compare their brands to non-Harman brands in that facility.
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post #584 of 600 Old 06-02-2015, 07:28 PM
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FWIW, they do compare their brands to non-Harman brands in that facility.
That is actually the entire reason for the spinorama

Sean Olive proved that they could not objectively judge their own designs against the competition sighted, hence the need for the spinorama. The information is being used to optimize their designs and as far as I'm aware is proprietary and not shared with anyone. So the issue of independent third party is irrelevant.

Whether one thinks the process is producing superior speakers is up to the individual.

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post #585 of 600 Old 06-03-2015, 08:48 AM
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That is actually the entire reason for the spinorama

Sean Olive proved that they could not objectively judge their own designs against the competition sighted, hence the need for the spinorama. The information is being used to optimize their designs and as far as I'm aware is proprietary and not shared with anyone. So the issue of independent third party is irrelevant.

Whether one thinks the process is producing superior speakers is up to the individual.
Based on the Revels, JBLs, and even the Infinitys which I've heard that they've brought to market since the facility opened, I'd say that's a big affirmative.
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post #586 of 600 Old 06-03-2015, 08:54 AM
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Yeah, I did to a couple of people but gave up when I saw the level of interest(or lack of ). I discovered the trick when I had the Reaction Audio speakers in my room before that GTG. It's remarkable how revealing it is compared to swapping stereo pairs.

A Single 8's GTG? The Single 8 is a great little speaker, but not sure it's worthy of it's own GTG
You know what I mean!
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post #587 of 600 Old 06-03-2015, 09:00 AM
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That is actually the entire reason for the spinorama

Sean Olive proved that they could not objectively judge their own designs against the competition sighted, hence the need for the spinorama. The information is being used to optimize their designs and as far as I'm aware is proprietary and not shared with anyone. So the issue of independent third party is irrelevant.

Whether one thinks the process is producing superior speakers is up to the individual.
Well I think I finally get your question about my comments. I assume it was a misinterpretation on my part about the term spinorama. I have yet to get through the Tool vid as Chrome keeps freezing up but I think that it is his term for the DB speaker switcher at Harman. I thought is was your term for the pseudo scientific DB tests done by hobbyists at home hence my "ignorance" comment. My bad ... and I thought I'd try and clear that one up. Probably should have left it alone ...

Back to crossover photo evaluations?

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post #588 of 600 Old 06-03-2015, 09:11 AM
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Based on the Revels, JBLs, and even the Infinitys which I've heard that they've brought to market since the facility opened, I'd say that's a big affirmative.
Having owned the Performa, Ultima, and Ultima2 Revels, flew 600 miles and drove 3.5 hours through LA traffic to have 2 demos of the M2's and now have JBL Cinema Surrounds for Atmos, owned several Lexicon and HK ARV/SSP units it is safe to say that I like Harman products. As far as commercial audio products go they are right at the top and their extensive R&D is what keeps them there. IMHO

OK, now back to crossover comparison photos ...

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post #589 of 600 Old 06-03-2015, 09:17 AM
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Well I think I finally get your question about my comments. I assume it was a misinterpretation on my part about the term spinorama. I have yet to get through the Tool vid as Chrome keeps freezing up but I think that it is his term for the DB speaker switcher at Harman. I thought is was your term for the pseudo scientific DB tests done by hobbyists at home hence my "ignorance" comment. My bad ... and I thought I'd try and clear that one up. Probably should have left it alone ...

Back to crossover photo evaluations?
Ah, I did have a glancing thought that you didn't know the term, but assumed it was more likely you did. It is the actual name given to the device.

An interesting factoid since you mentioned the NRC. Toole began his career and started his research at the NRC in Canada but Harman was willing to throw a whole lot more money at his research than the Canadian government, so he left for Harman.
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post #590 of 600 Old 06-03-2015, 09:21 AM
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Funny how quiet it got when Chris posted this.

3 posts in a row, I'm turning into NorthSky. If I start quoting myself would someone please shoot me?

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The Slanted 8 does appear to be more complex





then the CX-10



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post #591 of 600 Old 06-03-2015, 09:56 AM
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Funny how quiet it got when Chris posted this.
It got quiet because I was trying not to contribute to the back and forth bickering. I'm also not a crossover expect so I wasn't about to argue any hard facts on the two pictures. I do know that the more components that are on the board is typically because you're trying to filter more things out, so whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is up in the air.


Here's a pic of the DIYsoundgroups Volt series crossover, which is a lot close to the CX series of crossovers.





Your assumption that simply because the JTR's have more components so they must sound better is a little silly though Rob, how can you simply look at a crossover and say "well it must sound better". I think it would be great to see a coax surround speaker GTG like some have suggested though.
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post #592 of 600 Old 06-03-2015, 10:05 AM
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It got quiet because I was trying not to contribute to the back and forth bickering. I'm also not a crossover expect so I wasn't about to argue any hard facts on the two pictures. I do know that the more components that are on the board is typically because you're trying to filter more things out, so whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is up in the air.


Here's a pic of the DIYsoundgroups Volt series crossover, which is a lot close to the CX series of crossovers.





Your assumption that simply because the JTR's have more components so they must sound better is a little silly though Rob, how can you simply look at a crossover and say "well it must sound better".
Very good question Joe, I have no idea how or why the creator endowed me with those powers but it is a heavy burden to bear.

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post #593 of 600 Old 06-03-2015, 10:45 AM
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Very good question Joe, I have no idea how or why the creator endowed me with those powers but it is a heavy burden to bear.
I have no idea how or why the creator endowed me so generously either, but it is also a heavy burden. The wife never complains though.
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post #594 of 600 Old 06-03-2015, 10:48 AM
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I have no idea how or why the creator endowed me so generously either, but it is also a heavy burden. The wife never complains though.
Haha .....LOL
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post #595 of 600 Old 06-03-2015, 12:47 PM
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Your assumption that simply because the JTR's have more components so they must sound better is a little silly though Rob, how can you simply look at a crossover and say "well it must sound better".
I agree that looking at the two pictures and assuming one must objectively sound better based on more components is presumptuous. At the same time I think it would be presumptuous for anyone to assume Nothing can be objectively learned by looking at the two pictures.


*Edit*
Changed "silly" to "presumptuous"

Chris

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*Edit*
Changed "silly" to "presumptuous"
Which one, or both?
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post #597 of 600 Old 06-03-2015, 01:58 PM
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Which one, or both?
Both.
Changed to avoid a negative perception.

Chris
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The all new Noesis 228HT uses a much larger compression driver that is able to go down an octive lower for improved sound quality and better off axis response. Plus, more directivity from the larger horn and voicing that is more full sounding (relativitely more mid bass).
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You cannot boost on a passive crossover, you can only cut frequencies using passive filters.
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post #600 of 600 Old 07-08-2015, 09:57 AM
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The all new Noesis 228HT uses a much larger compression driver that is able to go down an octive lower for improved sound quality and better off axis response. Plus, more directivity from the larger horn and voicing that is more full sounding (relativitely more mid bass).
Great, now I want to upgrade.

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