JTR Noesis 228HT - The best speaker you never heard of for ~ $1200 pricepoint. - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 538 Old 02-28-2013, 06:41 PM
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Another factor to consider.

I've seen Mark Seaton post about not wanting to grow too fast. That is part of the reason why he keeps his website so low tech and basically his only business is through word of mouth and forums. He says it has to be a slow steady growth, not an explosion or that could be as deadly to his business as not selling enough.

I bet Jeff is in the same position.
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post #182 of 538 Old 03-01-2013, 09:08 AM
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How do these fare at low to medium listening volumes? Do they still excel, or are they meant for those who listen mainly at reference?

Check out my WAF approved living room theater....now featuring a Submersive!

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1526916/my...-1-living-room
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post #183 of 538 Old 03-01-2013, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by madhuski View Post

How do these fare at low to medium listening volumes? Do they still excel, or are they meant for those who listen mainly at reference?
i can't speak for the Noesis yet, but my T8's sound great at low volumes. It was the first thing that stood out when I got them, since I already knew they would play loud.
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post #184 of 538 Old 03-01-2013, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I take most "professional" reviews with a grain of salt, no one every really knows if someone is getting their pockets greased or not and I'd rather hear back directly from the people actually buying the speakers. I also know that anyone who buys a certain brand will usually have a little bias in regards to what they say about their speakers but you can get a pretty good feel how if one person thinks a certain brand is amazing and no one else does. One or two guys drinking that coolaid is one thing, but when end user after end user has nothing but great things to say about a specific brand they're usually onto something.

I've met Andrew Robinson in person and he a great guy. Sony even refused to send him their new 4k 84 inch tv because he didn't have such positive things to say about VW1000ES lol. Shame on Sony!

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #185 of 538 Old 03-01-2013, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I take most "professional" reviews with a grain of salt, no one every really knows if someone is getting their pockets greased or not and I'd rather hear back directly from the people actually buying the speakers. I also know that anyone who buys a certain brand will usually have a little bias in regards to what they say about their speakers but you can get a pretty good feel how if one person thinks a certain brand is amazing and no one else does. One or two guys drinking that coolaid is one thing, but when end user after end user has nothing but great things to say about a specific brand they're usually onto something.

I agree. With the "professional" review sites there can easily be a bias by the reviewer/publisher based on advertising revenue and relationships with the vendors. And what a "professional reviewer" might be looking for in a speaker might be different than me. That is why I might look at the measurements or final comments, but I have learned to trust my own ears and now take my own measurements in my own room. There is no way to know how the measurements from some of these review sites stack up depending on their equipment and room. You also have situations where some of these sites also sell speakers. I think that conducts the reviews and makes it more difficult to get an honest opinion.
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post #186 of 538 Old 03-01-2013, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I take most "professional" reviews with a grain of salt, no one every really knows if someone is getting their pockets greased or not and I'd rather hear back directly from the people actually buying the speakers.

It isn't even that complex. People who give negative reviews do not get sent equipment to review (as that costs the manufacturer money). People without equipment to review cannot run a review site.

On a certain scale (so many per month) and with certain products (say: video game), a reviewer like angryjoe can simply buy, test, and report; but with AV equipment that's simply not possible.

So honest review sites , of necessity, go extinct.

If you are lucky: the site gives good factual information (Stereophile and its measurements), or lets savy readers "read between the lines"
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post #187 of 538 Old 03-01-2013, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

It isn't even that complex. People who give negative reviews do not get sent equipment to review (as that costs the manufacturer money). People without equipment to review cannot run a review site.

On a certain scale (so many per month) and with certain products (say: video game), a reviewer like angryjoe can simply buy, test, and report; but with AV equipment that's simply not possible.

So honest review sites , of necessity, go extinct.

If you are lucky: the site gives good factual information (Stereophile and its measurements), or lets savy readers "read between the lines"

It is hard to take a lot of sites like Sterophile seriously when they push expensive amplifiers and expensive cables.
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post #188 of 538 Old 03-01-2013, 02:15 PM
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I think some mags will not publish a review if it is negative and the manufacturer doesn't want it published which contributes to the issue of few negative reviews.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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post #189 of 538 Old 03-01-2013, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

It is hard to take a lot of sites like Sterophile seriously when they push expensive amplifiers and expensive cables.
The turning point for me was when one of the sites made a $3000 budget system and spent $1500 on a blu-ray player leaving $1500 for a receiver and speakers, when they could have spent $100 the source and got decent speakers.
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post #190 of 538 Old 03-05-2013, 11:32 AM
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Just talked to Jeff, in for 3!

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post #191 of 538 Old 03-05-2013, 12:59 PM
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Nice hogues!! Congrats. I'm going to order mine on the 14th, I'm just putting it off as long as possible before the pre-order sale ends.

My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
Axiom Audio QS8 surrounds
Sherbourn PA 7-350
Pioneer VSX-21TXH
JVC RS45
Falcon Screens FVHD105
Dual PSA XS30's (gone but not forgotten)
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post #192 of 538 Old 03-07-2013, 07:38 PM - Thread Starter
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I demoed the 228HT for fellow AVSforum member Scrappydue and his friend, and Cowboys earlier this week.
Here is some of their feedback.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1165099/official-jtr-speaker-thread/7530#post_23041214

and

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1165099/official-jtr-speaker-thread/7530#post_23044254

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #193 of 538 Old 03-11-2013, 05:47 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm loving this setup. Came home, after a bit of a rough day, turned on the music. Cat on the lap, Cake playing. My JTR 228HT system with the JTR Captivator just sounds phenomenal!

Wife and daughter called me up to eat...I don't even want to eat.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #194 of 538 Old 03-11-2013, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I'm loving this setup. Came home, after a bit of a rough day, turned on the music. Cat on the lap, Cake playing. My JTR 228HT system with the JTR Captivator just sounds phenomenal!

Wife and daughter called me up to eat...I don't even want to eat.

Who needs food when you've got Cake. wink.gif Love some of their songs!

David Budo
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post #195 of 538 Old 03-12-2013, 09:05 AM
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Hello fellas, I've been silently following the official JTR speaker thread for over a year but the buzz around the 228HT has me breaking cover!

I'm very interested in these, especially the at intro price. The 228HT look like an outstanding high-performance audio bargain to me. Thanks all for the great impressions so far, especially Archaea for all his enthusiastic work.

I expect I'll have a few questions to help me feel "warm & fuzzy" about what will have to be a no-listen purchase. Here's one from a while back for now:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I ran Audyssey last night on the 228ht and I am happy to report Jeff's stated 70Hz crossover point is exactly what was assigned by audyssey. In the exact same position the eD cinema 12 always were registered as 120Hz or 150Hz crossover points.

Archaea, I recall from somewhere that you are driving these with an Onkyo TX-NR1007. Could you let me know the values Audyssey reported/set your level trims and distances at for the 228HT's? I also have the '1007 and would hate to run into level trim problems due (in part) to the high sensitivity. (My speaker > MLP distance is 3.75m/12.5ft.) I realise that this will not be definitive, but will be a fair sort of indication for me. Thanks a lot.


More questions for the JTR gurus tomorrow... Have a great day!
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post #196 of 538 Old 03-12-2013, 07:18 PM
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Can these 4 ohm high sensitivity speakers be driven with a standard AVR such as the Onkyo 818 (which has 8 and 6 ohm RMS specs but has a 4ohm dynamic power spec)?
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post #197 of 538 Old 03-12-2013, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

Can these 4 ohm high sensitivity speakers be driven with a standard AVR such as the Onkyo 818 (which has 8 and 6 ohm RMS specs but has a 4ohm dynamic power spec)?
Yes, I drove my T8's to reference with a similar Onkyo receiver on multiple occasions without issue.
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post #198 of 538 Old 03-12-2013, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

Can these 4 ohm high sensitivity speakers be driven with a standard AVR such as the Onkyo 818 (which has 8 and 6 ohm RMS specs but has a 4ohm dynamic power spec)?

dstew100
Absolutely. The speakers are very senstive - and crossed over to the subs high, so a typical middle tier AVR like the 818 is perfectly adequate for driving these speakers --- (much more so than the typical low sensitivity speakers driven by most). As to how much difference in sound an amp makes - I don't think it makes much of any difference at all until you exceed the limits of the AVR - which with a set of high efficiency speakers like these and a mid tier AVR is typically quite capable of producing reference level playback in room - especially if fewer channels (rather that all channels) are driven. IE - AVR's typically have a shared power supply for the amp channels meaning that as you add more channels to power, your available wattage for each channels is dropped as compared to a standalone amp where the power is dedicated to each channel.

Here are some measurements I took comparing two of my pro amps and my Onkyo TX-NR1007 AVR.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1457284/onkyo-tx-nr1007-avr-vs-crown-xls-202-vs-behringer-inuke-dsp-3000-in-room-omnimic-frequency-response-graph-comparison



Quote:
Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post

Hello fellas, I've been silently following the official JTR speaker thread for over a year but the buzz around the 228HT has me breaking cover!

I'm very interested in these, especially the at intro price. The 228HT look like an outstanding high-performance audio bargain to me. Thanks all for the great impressions so far, especially Archaea for all his enthusiastic work.

I expect I'll have a few questions to help me feel "warm & fuzzy" about what will have to be a no-listen purchase. Here's one from a while back for now:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I ran Audyssey last night on the 228ht and I am happy to report Jeff's stated 70Hz crossover point is exactly what was assigned by audyssey. In the exact same position the eD cinema 12 always were registered as 120Hz or 150Hz crossover points.

Archaea, I recall from somewhere that you are driving these with an Onkyo TX-NR1007. Could you let me know the values Audyssey reported/set your level trims and distances at for the 228HT's? I also have the '1007 and would hate to run into level trim problems due (in part) to the high sensitivity. (My speaker > MLP distance is 3.75m/12.5ft.) I realise that this will not be definitive, but will be a fair sort of indication for me. Thanks a lot.


More questions for the JTR gurus tomorrow... Have a great day!

GIEGAR,

Thank you for the feedback. Yes you are correct, I do have a TX-NR1007 AVR.

I've found these speakers to be noticeably less sensitive than the Noesis 212HT and eD Cinema 12, but still quite sensitive in their own right. The Noesis 212HT always registered at -12 in my room on Audyssey, meaning they were more sensitive than my room was really setup to use on the Onkyo TX-NR1007. Audyssey was calibrating them at the minimum trims and they were still exceeding the 75dB rating at my main listening position. Which is a fear you alluded to. The eD Cinema 12 were very similar. My trims on the eD Cinema 12's were always -11.5 or -12. IIRC the traditional JTR Triple Eight's I had in my room for a time that belonged to bluesprings1 might be a bit more sensitive than the JTR Noesis 228HT based on my experience, even though they are both (triple eight and 228HT) rated at 98dB/1watt.

My trims on the Noesis 228 HT are -7.5 dB for left channel and -9 dB for right channel on my Onkyo TX-NR10007 at distance settings of 11 feet and 10 feet respectively to my main listening position. I don't sit dead center. I sit to the right in the third of four chairs. You can see my room in my pictures in this thread or my signature pictures. The distances are accurate and I've verified with the SPL meter of the omnimic that these spl levels are right after Audyssey set them. They match spot on to the 75dB expectation with real measurements of 74.8 - 75.1 in my room at the MLP.

The crossover was detected at 70hz by Audyssey and my omnimic confirms that is accurate in full range sweeps, they fall off pretty hard at that point, regardless of placement, but that is by Jeff's design. Mine are out about a foot from the wall currently and stil register as 70hz speakers in Audyssey. I bumped them up to 80hz, and think I like 100hz crossover better for music with the captivators in early impressions. The eD's I liked best with about a 150hz crossover for music for comparison. My Wharfedales, I liked an 80hz crossover.


One thing to note.

I am increasingly starting to think my surrounds should probably be upgraded at some point. I have Klipsch surrounds, and Wharfedale sapphire SP-87 towers hung on the rear wall for the surround rears. Neither is capable of keeping up with the dynamics of the JTR. In fact in my recent demo with some visitors I was asked if I ran my surrounds at lower levels by preference. I chuckled and said no - everything is level matched and double checked. The Klipsch and Wharfedales keep up fine at lower levels - say -10 or -12, but when I turn it up to reference levels for demo sessions the surrounds basically get lost in the mix because they can't keep up with the dynamics of the front soundstage.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
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post #199 of 538 Old 03-12-2013, 08:30 PM
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Thanks for the AVR answer Jonathan + company.
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post #200 of 538 Old 03-12-2013, 08:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

Thanks for the AVR answer Jonathan + company.

You are welcome - hey to give you an idea of how ridiculously sensitive the big brother Noesis 212HT are --- take a look at this vid I made. Then look what they were being powered by at reference level playback. cool.giftongue.gif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlSTiV5NruQ

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post #201 of 538 Old 03-12-2013, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

Can these 4 ohm high sensitivity speakers be driven with a standard AVR such as the Onkyo 818 (which has 8 and 6 ohm RMS specs but has a 4ohm dynamic power spec)?

No problem at all dstew.

That's one of the beauties of high sensitivity speakers for me - any reasonable mid level AVR will be capable of driving these speakers to thunderous levels. In a typical home setting, at say a 4 metre listening distance, your AVR will only be required to output about 20 - 40W per channel to deliver reference level peaks at your seat. This is well within the continuous power rating of most AVR's and not even relying on the "dynamic" spec to deliver those program peaks.

Another way of looking at it: the Onkyo 818 carries a THX Select2+ certification. THX claim this signifies that it will play any program material to acceptably clean reference levels when driving 89dB/W/m sensitive speakers with a minimum impedance of 3.2ohms (4ohms nominal) in a 'Select' sized room (56m3). What this means (in theory at least) is that the 818 will have ~9dB of headroom - really just cruising - at reference level when driving a 228HT in a medium sized room and a viewing distance of 3 > 4m.

Edit: THX dimensions.
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post #202 of 538 Old 03-13-2013, 04:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

Thanks for the AVR answer Jonathan + company.

dstew, you got some good responses from actual JTR owners while I was fluffing around with my post. You should of course give much more weight to their experiences in their own rooms, rather than my enthusiastic non-owner theorising (some of which could be total crap BTW). Archaea's experiences of the actual in-room sensitivities of various speakers in his set-up are really instructional.

Good luck with your purchase deliberations!
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post #203 of 538 Old 03-13-2013, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post


Thank you for the feedback. Yes you are correct, I do have a TX-NR1007 AVR.

I've found these speakers to be noticeably less sensitive than the Noesis 212HT and eD Cinema 12, but still quite sensitive in their own right. The Noesis 212HT always registered at -12 in my room on Audyssey, meaning they were more sensitive than my room was really setup to use on the Onkyo TX-NR1007. Audyssey was calibrating them at the minimum trims and they were still exceeding the 75dB rating at my main listening position. Which is a fear you alluded to. The eD Cinema 12 were very similar. My trims on the eD Cinema 12's were always -11.5 or -12. IIRC the traditional JTR Triple Eight's I had in my room for a time that belonged to bluesprings1 might be a bit more sensitive than the JTR Noesis 228HT based on my experience, even though they are both (triple eight and 228HT) rated at 98dB/1watt.

My trims on the Noesis 228 HT are -7.5 dB for left channel and -9 dB for right channel on my Onkyo TX-NR10007 at distance settings of 11 feet and 10 feet respectively to my main listening position. I don't sit dead center. I sit to the right in the third of four chairs. You can see my room in my pictures in this thread or my signature pictures. The distances are accurate and I've verified with the SPL meter of the omnimic that these spl levels are right after Audyssey set them. They match spot on to the 75dB expectation with real measurements of 74.8 - 75.1 in my room at the MLP.

The crossover was detected at 70hz by Audyssey and my omnimic confirms that is accurate in full range sweeps, they fall off pretty hard at that point, regardless of placement, but that is by Jeff's design. Mine are out about a foot from the wall currently and stil register as 70hz speakers in Audyssey. I bumped them up to 80hz, and think I like 100hz crossover better for music with the captivators in early impressions. The eD's I liked best with about a 150hz crossover for music for comparison. My Wharfedales, I liked an 80hz crossover.


One thing to note.

I am increasingly starting to think my surrounds should probably be upgraded at some point. I have Klipsch surrounds, and Wharfedale sapphire SP-87 towers hung on the rear wall for the surround rears. Neither is capable of keeping up with the dynamics of the JTR. In fact in my recent demo with some visitors I was asked if I ran my surrounds at lower levels by preference. I chuckled and said no - everything is level matched and double checked. The Klipsch and Wharfedales keep up fine at lower levels - say -10 or -12, but when I turn it up to reference levels for demo sessions the surrounds basically get lost in the mix because they can't keep up with the dynamics of the front soundstage.


WOW Archaea, you're the man!!! Thanks heaps for taking the time for such a comprehensive response. You've really gone above and beyond with this and it's a great intro to AVS.

There's a bit here for me to absorb and I might come back to this later (it's getting late here). Suffice to say, the main take home message for me is that I should be OK with respect to level trims on the '1007 given my 12.5ft distance and the apparent in-room sensitivity of the 228HT's indicated by your measurements. I will however only have about 6 inches clearance between rear of speaker to front wall, so it may be a close run thing if I pick up some extra mid-bass reinforcement. Suppose there's only one way to find out! wink.gif


Hmmm... surround upgrade, eh? So with the Klipsch and W'dales, is what is happening here power compression setting in as you approach reference? The program material calls for a transient peak, the amps send the requisite voltage spike and the surrounds go: "no thanks"? Looks like JTR Slant or Single 8's are on the cards. (Naturally, the more hardcore will be calling for a re-purposing of the prized 228HT's to surround duty to accommodate a set of 3 big fellas up front!)


Cheers
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post #204 of 538 Old 03-13-2013, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

You are welcome - hey to give you an idea of how ridiculously sensitive the big brother Noesis 212HT are --- take a look at this vid I made. Then look what they were being powered by at reference level playback. cool.giftongue.gif

Great demo... should be compulsory viewing for those tempted to shell out for uber amps to power JTR's - or other high sensitivity speakers - on the promise of "better sound quality".

(Loved the cat on supervisory duties too.)


Edit: Strewth! eek.gif Four posts in a row, I'm talking to myself... Time to hit the straw.
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post #205 of 538 Old 03-13-2013, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

dstew100

One thing to note.

I am increasingly starting to think my surrounds should probably be upgraded at some point. I have Klipsch surrounds, and Wharfedale sapphire SP-87 towers hung on the rear wall for the surround rears. Neither is capable of keeping up with the dynamics of the JTR. In fact in my recent demo with some visitors I was asked if I ran my surrounds at lower levels by preference. I chuckled and said no - everything is level matched and double checked. The Klipsch and Wharfedales keep up fine at lower levels - say -10 or -12, but when I turn it up to reference levels for demo sessions the surrounds basically get lost in the mix because they can't keep up with the dynamics of the front soundstage.

Which model Klipsch surrounds are you using?

I am also looking at possibly upgrading my Klipsch RF-83/RC-64 front stage to Noesis 228HT.
It would be nice to know which model Klipsch surrounds you have (mine are RS-62), so that I can have an idea if I will also need to upgrade these as well.

Thanks
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post #206 of 538 Old 03-13-2013, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Dionyz,

I bought them like 10 years ago at a local audio store. I believe they are Klipsch RS-3 II.
http://www.klipsch.com/rs-3-ii-surround-speaker


They have a 95dB sensitivity rating, which is probably correct ballpark, but the surrounds were definitely more noticeable with my fronts being the Sapphire SP89 tower Wharfedales than they are with the fronts being the eD's or Noesis.

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post #207 of 538 Old 03-13-2013, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
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My center channel just arrived today at my workplace. I'll finally get to play with the full front soundstage!
Worst part is that I have activities planned every night this week - so I may not get much time to play with it for a few days.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #208 of 538 Old 03-13-2013, 11:31 AM
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Dammit Archaea, come on man priorities! biggrin.gif




seriously though I can't wait to read about what you think about having a full 228HT front sound stage now. I'll be ordering mine tomorrow from Jeff.

My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
Axiom Audio QS8 surrounds
Sherbourn PA 7-350
Pioneer VSX-21TXH
JVC RS45
Falcon Screens FVHD105
Dual PSA XS30's (gone but not forgotten)
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post #209 of 538 Old 03-13-2013, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

My center channel just arrived today at my workplace. I'll finally get to play with the full front soundstage!
Worst part is that I have activities planned every night this week - so I may not get much time to play with it for a few days.
cool.gif

I think you will find the difference with identical LCR's will be significant. Unfortunately, it will probably make your surround sound issues even more noticeable.

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post #210 of 538 Old 03-13-2013, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

My center channel just arrived today at my workplace. I'll finally get to play with the full front soundstage!
Worst part is that I have activities planned every night this week - so I may not get much time to play with it for a few days.

NICE!!!! Glad to hear it, too bad you can't hook it up right away.

If you have any free time the weekend after this coming one let me know, I should have all my subs up and running and I think Steven is going to bring his Klipsch down to compare to the Noesis.
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