Bryston model T - Page 2 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 52 Old 03-16-2013, 09:32 AM
Advanced Member
 
K Shep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 902
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by ex-labdriver View Post

That's why many people go to great lengths to audition lots of brands & models before purchasing...


Though I agree with you that listening to a speaker prior to giving it a personal assessment is the best practice. Some of those "many people" have been audio enthusiasts for decades and have the ability to look at specifications of a speaker, it's cabinet design and drivers then come to a fair conclusion of how it will sound based on it's make up, with out hearing it.
K Shep is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 52 Old 03-16-2013, 09:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Dbuudo07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,762
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by ex-labdriver View Post

Sitting behind a keyboard assessing the sound of any hifi type speaker before hearing it is illogical, period.

That's why many people go to great lengths to audition lots of brands & models before purchasing...

TAM

You're a shoddy speaker designer's dream customer: A person blind to science. Every aspect of speaker design and sound is measurable and grounded in the laws of physics. There is nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing you can describe in a listening session that cannot be explained through scientific measurements.

Understanding the limitations of your hearing through regular hearing tests combined with knowledge of the physics of sound reproduction (as people like Bill FM have in spades) negate giving inherently flawed designs a "listening chance".

You, and a host of others, think your ears are some magical tools science can't match. Keep walking on the flat Earth, mate.

David Budo
Dbuudo07 is offline  
post #33 of 52 Old 03-16-2013, 11:28 AM
Senior Member
 
ex-labdriver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 326
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 24
From what I've seen & unable to find any more on the net, there are no definitive reviews nor real measurements available out there yet on this product - just the standard minimal specs at the manufacturer's site & the 'First Impression' Review that many here already don't buy.

How can I as a layman make any kind of meaningful assessment until a thorough review with measurements, etc is widely available & subsequently auditions them if I'm interested in buying them? Should anyone write off this product based on a few preliminary opinions on the forums? I think not - again it's illogical to me.

I totally believe in science in most cases, after all, it kept me in the air for over 3 decades; however, like anything else, it has to be tempered with a good dose of common sense, logic & yes, sometimes skepticism.

For example, I for one cannot hear any difference between any modern SS amps/receivers that are run within their design specs (no clipping) - although many say that they can, eg, Yamahas are brighter than Denons, or whatever - even though they both measure ruler flat, etc, etc. More power to them; however, I'm skeptical with a lot of this stuff, but I guess that is because I'm just an unenlightened boob from the dark ages...

TAM
ex-labdriver is offline  
post #34 of 52 Old 03-16-2013, 04:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
gtpsuper24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,080
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by ex-labdriver View Post

How can I as a layman make any kind of meaningful assessment until a thorough review with measurements, etc is widely available & subsequently auditions them if I'm interested in buying them? Should anyone write off this product based on a few preliminary opinions on the forums? I think not - again it's illogical to me.


Dual tweeters on a horizontal plane causes too many issues. You don't need any measurements to know that its a bad idea.

One of my favorite quotes:

"they're not in business of outsmarting physics. they're in the business of outsmarting their customers"
gtpsuper24 is offline  
post #35 of 52 Old 03-16-2013, 07:45 PM
Senior Member
 
ex-labdriver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 326
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Well, you are more of an expert on this CC design than I since you enjoyed it immensely for a couple of years.

I too have numerous favourite quotes (your posts) as well where you extolled the fine virtues of your CC over that time period; however, in the sense of fair play, there is no point in having you endure them again...

TAM
ex-labdriver is offline  
post #36 of 52 Old 03-16-2013, 10:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JerryLove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,597
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Not at all. What matters is the CTC distance between the tweeters and the CTC distance between the midbasses

Gonna call BS on this one. Since both the tweeter and the midbass will be putting out the same sound at the crossover point; too much distance is a problem (where comb filtering starts kicking in).

This is why we can't put our tweeters and midranges in different places, like we can with woofers and subwoofers.

Seriously: What you do think happens when the crossover frequency from the tweeter and the mid hit your ear 180-degrees out-of-phase with each other?

Basic science doesn't change because you want it to.
JerryLove is offline  
post #37 of 52 Old 03-17-2013, 04:08 PM
Member
 
samsung46's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Bottom line is that Mr. Tanner & Mr. Colquhoun after putting the Model T threw real world paces of developing a speaker not looking at pictures and specs must of said man these sound like poop but we will put the Bryston and Axiom reputation on the line and sell them anyways. I don't think any of you ding dongs own a speaker company or highly respected high end audio company. So move on enjoy the systems you own.
samsung46 is offline  
post #38 of 52 Old 03-17-2013, 04:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
gtpsuper24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,080
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by samsung46 View Post

Bottom line is that Mr. Tanner & Mr. Colquhoun after putting the Model T threw real world paces of developing a speaker not looking at pictures and specs must of said man these sound like poop but we will put the Bryston and Axiom reputation on the line and sell them anyways. I don't think any of you ding dongs own a speaker company or highly respected high end audio company. So move on enjoy the systems you own.

Do you have any technical background in any kind of speaker knowledge? Other than just what Colquhoun tries to sell you in his newsletters? He's a business man, he first and main goal is to make money and lots of it. Of course he will tell you anything you want to hear and you obvisously believe him over anyone once. How about you move along as this is a Audio/Video and SCIENCE forum, not coolaid drinkers anonymous.
gtpsuper24 is offline  
post #39 of 52 Old 03-17-2013, 07:06 PM
Member
 
samsung46's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Wow, you guys are some sad sad individuals. Piece out!
samsung46 is offline  
post #40 of 52 Old 03-17-2013, 08:59 PM
AVS Special Member
 
beaveav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,747
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by samsung46 View Post

Bottom line is that Mr. Tanner & Mr. Colquhoun after putting the Model T threw real world paces of developing a speaker not looking at pictures and specs must of said man these sound like poop but we will put the Bryston and Axiom reputation on the line and sell them anyways. I don't think any of you ding dongs own a speaker company or highly respected high end audio company. So move on enjoy the systems you own.

Real engineers know that "pictures and specs" mean something when designing equipment.
Engineers dont just listen to something and say "yep, sounds good, no need to measure anything...."

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
beaveav is offline  
post #41 of 52 Old 03-17-2013, 09:47 PM
Senior Member
 
ex-labdriver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 326
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 24
SCIENCE, especially when it comes to audio physics & theory, is no doubt largely correct, believable & perhaps irrefutable; however, I remain healthily skeptical of science in general, especially considering the discoveries, claims, errors & perhaps even fraud made over the last century.

The one that always comes to mind to me is the cause of stomach ulcers. It finally was debunked a while ago after a century of believing that they were caused by stress.

Salmon stocks on the west coast regularly defy the best efforts of our marine scientists to estimate what the strength of the runs will be. Despite huge & expensive research, more often than not, the scientists are wrong.

The whole global warming (now climate change) fiasco is suspect on both sides of the argument. How accurate is your daily weather forecast?

Here is some boring reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_experimental_errors_and_frauds_in_physics

http://www.economist.com/node/21528593

There are lots more, but you get the point. It seems that one person's science isn't always exactly that of another. Hence, that's probably why all speakers don't sound the same - different designers do things in different ways thus producing what they believe is right for them. Thankfully this provides for lots of choice & most importantly, the freedom for customers to choose & purchase the right product for them.

As a layman from the dark ages, I'm probably way off base here, but that's how I see it...

TAM
ex-labdriver is offline  
post #42 of 52 Old 03-17-2013, 10:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JerryLove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,597
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 76
So you throw out a bunch of pseudo-science "beliefs" about ulcers and how some of those assumptions turned out wrong and suddenly physics can no longer be relied upon?

The errors are piled pretty deep in that post.
JerryLove is offline  
post #43 of 52 Old 03-17-2013, 10:36 PM
Senior Member
 
ex-labdriver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 326
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 24
I stated that in the case of audio physics & theory, the science was probably irrefutable; however, I've seen lately on science documentaries (NOVA, Discovery, etc) that even much of the physics as we now understand it is under intense scrutiny with a lot of head scratching by many scientists that are thinking way beyond the norm.

Perhaps what we believe that we know now may not actually be completely correct - in fact the inference is that big changes in thinking & theories are probably inevitable. We don't know it all yet.

Who knows? Way in the future, maybe we'll get super duper speakers out of all this.

For the more mundane stuff, it doesn't hurt to be healthily skeptical...

TAM
ex-labdriver is offline  
post #44 of 52 Old 03-18-2013, 08:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
gtpsuper24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,080
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 90
I believe NOVA and the other programs are dealing with much more complicated issues than dual tweeter on a horizontal baffle. Like the human body and the universe. biggrin.gif
gtpsuper24 is offline  
post #45 of 52 Old 03-23-2013, 08:07 PM
Advanced Member
 
Socketman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 701
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 65
A look inside the Model T

Socketman is offline  
post #46 of 52 Old 03-23-2013, 08:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Billy p's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Markham,Ont
Posts: 1,250
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 169
Yup real zebra wood as Ian stated moments ago...I wonder what the retail is with the zebra wood since exotic wood is uber expensive & drives up the cost...looks nice from an aesthetics POV...smile.gif

Old Indian proverb: We don't inherit the earth from our ancestors, but we borrow it from our children!

Ascend Acoustics (NrT)Towers, STC w RAAL, 200 SE in espresso
54" of Panasonic Bliss, Anthem MRX 300
Sony BDP-S380, TechnicsCD player, Apple TV
PSA XS30 SE in Cordovan Cherry
Billy p is offline  
post #47 of 52 Old 03-24-2013, 12:04 AM
Senior Member
 
ex-labdriver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 326
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Very pretty both inside & especially on the outside...

TAM
ex-labdriver is offline  
post #48 of 52 Old 03-24-2013, 06:56 AM
AVS Special Member
 
gtpsuper24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,080
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 90
Did Ian change his mind on bracing?

http://www.axiomaudio.com/archives/October2011

The more interesting question is what happens as you add more and more braces to the cabinet? The answer, from a listeningI experience point of view, is nothing -- at least to a point. At some point you will be left with a large number of higher frequency resonant points all working together. The resonant SPL will be quite low but the frequency will also be quite high and this is where the problem comes in.

I thought it was set against adding excessive bracing like in the M80. Now its 1.5" thick front baffle and window bracing? From my understanding of his article, too much bracing was not desired and thats why Axiom speakers doesn't use much bracing.

Is this a "audio jewelry option" ?
gtpsuper24 is offline  
post #49 of 52 Old 03-24-2013, 06:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,661
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy p View Post

Yup real zebra wood as Ian stated moments ago...I wonder what the retail is with the zebra wood
Probably more than is justified:

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/20260108-p-4_paper_back_veneer.html

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/20256504-p-4_paper_back_veneer.html
Quote:
I thought it was set against adding excessive bracing like in the M80. Now its 1.5" thick front baffle and window bracing? From my understanding of his article, too much bracing was not desired and thats why Axiom speakers doesn't use much bracing.
Hogwash. There's only one reason to skimp on bracing: It's cheaper.

This statement,
Quote:
At some point you will be left with a large number of higher frequency resonant points all working together. The resonant SPL will be quite low but the frequency will also be quite high and this is where the problem comes in.

is pure hokum.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is online now  
post #50 of 52 Old 03-24-2013, 07:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
gtpsuper24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,080
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Hogwash. There's only one reason to skimp on bracing: It's cheaper.

Yep I agree he made a statement about that in his marketing letter:

The claim was made by this same competitor that braces were expensive and therefore their elimination was a great way to cut costs, but are they? Some simple math shows the opposite. A sheet of high quality ¾" MDF costs about $45.00 and for a product like an M80 you get 49 braces out of a sheet. Our CNC router can cut each brace in about 20 seconds including machine loading and unloading (watch the video here). All of this simply does not add up to an expensive part. We could load an M80 cabinet with braces and it would barely move the end price 1%.

Since it doesn't cost anything really according to him, why doesn't his subwoofers use better bracing. The main complaint about his tall subwoofers from reviewers like HTS/ILKKA was that the EP600 is very weak cabinet and resonants.

It would cost him more than he says, because he only takes into account the cost of the MDF only. He did not factor in the cost of labor to add those extra braces, engineering time to find out where to place the extra bracing, materials like extra glue ect... And really that little bit of mdf cost adds up over the months and years and cuts into his bottom line. Delivery costs will go up, because now you get less finished speakers per sheet of MDF than before so now you need many more sheets. Warehouse would have less floor space now with the excess of MDF stacks. Thats only figuring in the M80 but he would also have to account for the bracing and design for each of the other 3 towers M50, M60, LFR plus his subwoofers (hollow).

Wonder how much extra it would cost for 1-1.5" baffles for his subwoofers plus the extra bracing. Probably more than he wants to cut from his bottom line.(even though he says it doesn't cost much if anything)
gtpsuper24 is offline  
post #51 of 52 Old 03-24-2013, 08:09 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Badouri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 357
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 56
Advertising dollars are more important, magazine and website owners need money to stay in business and i doubt they would write a bad review about the guy signing their paycheck...
Badouri is offline  
post #52 of 52 Old 03-24-2013, 08:58 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,661
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1346
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post


It would cost him more than he says, because he only takes into account the cost of the MDF only. He did not factor in the cost of labor to add those extra braces, engineering time to find out where to place the extra bracing, materials like extra glue ect...
The main cost of bracing is labor. It's so high that manufacturers will use poorly braced, or unbraced, one inch or thicker MDF rather than well braced half or three quarter inch MDF, and still save money, even with the higher shipping costs of the heavier cabs.
Quote:
Wonder how much extra it would cost for 1-1.5" baffles for his subwoofers
With proper bracing you don't need thicker than 3/4" baffles. I don't use anything thicker than 1/2" plywood on any of my cabs, including pro-touring subwoofers. My personal electric bass cab is made of 1/4 and 1/8 inch plywood. It's not what you make it out of that matters, it's how you make it.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is online now  
Reply Speakers

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off