Bryston model T - AVS Forum
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Old 02-19-2013, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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I was surprised to see Bryston team up with Axiom for their new speakers, my question is what are the advantages of dual tweeters?

http://www.bryston.com/products/speakers/Model_T_Passive.html
http://www.axiomaudio.com/m80-floorstanding-speakers
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Old 02-19-2013, 01:08 PM
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Output and possibly lower distortion. But really those two objectives can be achieved with a single tweeter, higher power handling ect... Its really just gimmicky, with the Axiom its just dirt cheap low quality tweeters and it looks cool. The Bryston probably has higher end tweeters but I believe they are still designed by Axiom so I wouldn't be surprise if its not all that great.

Generally its best to have a MTM on the top portion of the tower, when the designer wants dual mids/tweets. Usually good speaker designers try and minimize the distance from the tweeter and mids (ie cramming them as close as they can, truncated frames) the top tweeter and bottom midrange seems kind of far apart. With an asking price of close to $10k for the Model T, I think i'll pass.
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Old 02-19-2013, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Badouri View Post

my question is what are the advantages of dual tweeters?
The same as that with dual midbasses: vertical pattern control. Depending on the spacing vertical dispersion can be reduced by up to 75%, which also reduces early reflections off the floor and ceiling.

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Old 02-19-2013, 05:09 PM
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Here is a review FWIW:

http://www.innerearmag.com/reviews/speakers/Bryston_Modet_T.shtml

Kinda flies in the face of gtp's already negative assessment of a speaker that he's never heard...

TAM
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Old 02-19-2013, 05:20 PM
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From the link given above:

"The point: The speakers revealed this and in addition clearly showed that cables can make a huge difference."

Review loses all credibility with this statement.

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

From the link given above:

"The point: The speakers revealed this and in addition clearly showed that cables can make a huge difference."

Review loses all credibility with this statement.
Even worse: "I could clearly hear the connectors' limitations and/or personality"

That clearly identifies him as an oddiophool of the first degree, and any opinions he has of the speakers should be taken with a truckload of salt. Too bad, they're probably pretty good, though I doubt actually worth more than $4k.

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Old 02-20-2013, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post


Depending on the spacing vertical dispersion can be reduced by up to 75%, which also reduces early reflections off the floor and ceiling.

I would guess that the top tweeter and bottom midrange are about 8-10" apart, isn't that kind of far from each other. I thought generally its best to squeeze the mids and treble as close together as possible.
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Old 02-20-2013, 08:52 AM
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I would guess that the top tweeter and bottom midrange are about 8-10" apart, isn't that kind of far from each other.
Not at all. What matters is the CTC distance between the tweeters and the CTC distance between the midbasses
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I thought generally its best to squeeze the mids and treble as close together as possible.
Not really. It doesn't hurt, but with a vertical line of drivers it's far from critical. Totally different story when the drivers are horizontally arrayed.

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Old 02-20-2013, 09:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks to all for your answers.
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That clearly identifies him as an oddiophool of the first degree
Now that's a good one! biggrin.gif
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Old 02-20-2013, 11:11 AM
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OK - I don't buy the wire/connector stuff either, but this review would be very credible review to the myriad of audiophiles who believe in this stuff.

It was the first article that came up when I searched this speaker. I didn't spend anymore time to search further or closely read every nuance of the review as the Model T doesn't really interest me; however, I found another forum review that seems to be from just an amateur audio enthusiast who provides his thoughts - Page 11 second post ''A Daring Venture':

http://www.audioaficionado.org/bryston-audio/15212-new-bryston-speakers-11.html

As unpalatable as these reviews may be to some, they are still certainly far better than conjecture. Enjoy...

TAM
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Old 02-20-2013, 11:40 AM
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As unpalatable as these reviews may be to some, they are still certainly far better than conjecture.
Or one could measure the speaker response, with polar plots and a waterfall chart, which, along with blind listening tests by at least four subjects, would leave nothing to conjecture about. As to what audiophiles will believe, that would be just about anything, with the possible exception of factual data. rolleyes.gif

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Old 02-20-2013, 12:04 PM
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As with any brand new product that is presently in limited supply, I'm sure that more reviews will be forthcoming when more of them are out there. For example, it seemed to take close to a year for the Velo EQ-MAX subs to be properly reviewed when I was interested in replacing my vintage Velo last year.

At the Model T's price, it is unlikely that they would flood the marketplace with them - probably more custom type orders.

The Model T Mini seems interesting as well...

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Old 03-05-2013, 06:41 PM
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OK - I don't buy the wire/connector stuff either, but this review would be very credible review to the myriad of audiophiles who believe in this stuff.

It was the first article that came up when I searched this speaker. I didn't spend anymore time to search further or closely read every nuance of the review as the Model T doesn't really interest me; however, I found another forum review that seems to be from just an amateur audio enthusiast who provides his thoughts - Page 11 second post ''A Daring Venture':

http://www.audioaficionado.org/bryston-audio/15212-new-bryston-speakers-11.html

As unpalatable as these reviews may be to some, they are still certainly far better than conjecture. Enjoy...

TAM

Amateur audio enthusiasts tend to post directly to the forum. Since this was reposted by James - the chief Bryston salesman - it's most likely written by one of the Bryston dealers.
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Old 03-15-2013, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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New center speakers and sub, look at the bottom of the page for pictures and prices:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/floorstanding/bryston-model-t-pre

Curious to know what Bill thinks of the center speakers.
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Old 03-15-2013, 11:50 AM
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Upwards of $10K for some Axiom speakers, huh? Alrighty then. biggrin.gif
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Old 03-15-2013, 11:58 AM
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Upwards of $10K for some Axiom speakers, huh? Alrighty then. biggrin.gif

Vinyl wrap for $10k. At that price high gloss finishes or high quality real wood should be standard.
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Old 03-15-2013, 12:19 PM
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New center speakers and sub, look at the bottom of the page for pictures and prices:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/floorstanding/bryston-model-t-pre

Curious to know what Bill thinks of the center speakers.
They're typical of centers where more attention was given to looking good than sounding good. The drivers should be packed tight, literally kissing each other. But that would leave a wide expanse of cabinet to either side of the drivers, which the uninformed masses would think odd, and that would reduce sales. They look pretty, but polar plots of their output would look pretty ugly.

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Old 03-15-2013, 12:29 PM
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I fear that Bryston perhaps made a strategic error WRT the enthusiasts here & elsewhere by associating with Axiom even though they've built fine products for over 30 years. Had Paradigm or whomever built them, it is probable that all would be right with the world.

The nay saying has already started - amazing since few have actually heard them. Assessing how they will sound by looking at pics is beyond me.

While these are not for me, I wish Bryston all the best in when it rolls out this line...

TAM
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Old 03-15-2013, 12:52 PM
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The nay saying has already started - amazing since few have actually heard them. Assessing how they will sound by looking at pics is beyond me.
It's not beyond me; that's the advantage to knowing the physics of how speakers and sound waves work. There are at least ten other regulars here who have the same ability, but they're affiliated with speaker companies, so they're not going to say anything about a competitors product. I'm an independent engineer, so I don't have that restriction. And it doesn't matter to me who made them, the laws of physics apply equally to all.
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Old 03-15-2013, 05:49 PM
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Bill, I respect your obvious skills & expertise in speaker designs & always enjoy reading your fine contributions. At least you are a pro & more credible than most of us here.

Well for me this is somewhat similar in my vocation. I was a military pilot (fighters & SAR helos) for 36 years in our air force; however, I would never pretend to be able to predict how an aircraft is going to fly without getting in & actually driving it around for a while. Similarly, last week while my 1999 Pontiac (remember those?) Supercharged GTP V6 was in the body shop, the Mazda 3 4-Banger that they gave me as rental surprised the hell out of me with its wonderful driveability around town. Its Stop Light acceleration far exceeded my expectations & I wouldn't have surmised that it was such a small, economical motor. I don't know what its high end speed would be like, but it sure was uncommonly good in the city. My preconceived ideas were completely wrong.

So before we make anymore predictions on how the Brystons will perform or not, it would be appropriate IMHO that actual listening sessions & reviews be undertaken first. That is only fair....

TAM
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Old 03-15-2013, 06:03 PM
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Yep,amazing someone can tell how something will sound or perform without trying it out or LISTENING to it LOL that's funny.Independent I wonder why,Hello.
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Old 03-15-2013, 06:37 PM
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Love it how people are defending a product that they have no interest in or will never buy, just because its associated with another brand. I think they are mostly blinded by pure brand loyalty and can't or refuse to see reality.
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:38 PM
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I was a military pilot (fighters & SAR helos) for 36 years in our air force; however, I would never pretend to be able to predict how an aircraft is going to fly without getting in & actually driving it around for a while.
But you would know just by looking at them what you could expect to be different between an F16 and a C130. By the same token an acoustical engineer with one look can tell if there are basic design flaws, just as you'd know by looking at it that no Blackhawk is going to fly if it's powered by a steam engine.

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Old 03-15-2013, 09:07 PM
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GTP, all I'm saying is give the damn things a fair shake by at least listening to them before casting judgement. Is that too much to ask?

Bill, yes, but comparing a fighter to transport aircraft is like comparing a tweeter to a sub driver. I'm sure that you have the knowledge to pick out what you believe might be design flaws by sight, but the overall sound just might be surprising - good or poor.

The proof is in the subjective listening & assessment by humans. After all, humans are the ones with the bucks & they will eventually be the ones that make or break a product, as always...

TAM
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Old 03-16-2013, 06:07 AM - Thread Starter
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GTP, all I'm saying is give the damn things a fair shake by at least listening to them before casting judgement. Is that too much to ask?

Bill, yes, but comparing a fighter to transport aircraft is like comparing a tweeter to a sub driver. I'm sure that you have the knowledge to pick out what you believe might be design flaws by sight, but the overall sound just might be surprising - good or poor.

The proof is in the subjective listening & assessment by humans. After all, humans are the ones with the bucks & they will eventually be the ones that make or break a product, as always...

TAM

If we listen to them and say they suck, you will come back to defend Axiom.

I read your story about a customer and his wife choosing the VP150 center speaker, some people say their Bose speakers sound great...

I like AVS because of the information shared by guys like Bill.
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Old 03-16-2013, 07:37 AM
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GTP, all I'm saying is give the damn things a fair shake by at least listening to them before casting judgement. Is that too much to ask?
If code inspector saw a house under construction and they were using 2x4 floor joists on 2 foot centers sheathed with 1/4 inch plywood should he not mention that the construction was shoddy, or let them have a fair shake and not cast judgement, and let them find out for themselves when the floor failed? What if they were using one inch pipe for their drainage? Should he let them find out they were in error the first time they flushed a toilet? If they were using 14 ga romex on 30 amp circuits should he let them learn the error of that choice when the house burned down?
In none of these cases does one have to find out the hard way that the basic engineering was flawed, it's as plain as the nose on your face. To an acoustical engineer, while the consequences may not be nearly as severe, the basic engineering flaws of those centers are just as obvious.
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Old 03-16-2013, 09:30 AM
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If we listen to them and say they suck, you will come back to defend Axiom.
I read your story about a customer and his wife choosing the VP150 center speaker, some people say their Bose speakers sound great...
I like AVS because of the information shared by guys like Bill.

Yes he will. There is no tolerating any negative opinions of Axiom products or those that are associated with Axiom regardless of how much experience you have with a product. You can point out design flaws, quality anything and they just will not accept or tolerate it.
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GTP, all I'm saying is give the damn things a fair shake by at least listening to them before casting judgement. Is that too much to ask?

Lets see, I've lived with a center channel speaker with dual tweeters for several years. You stated you never heard the VP150, but yet claim I have no idea what I'm talking about? rolleyes.gif

Did the VP150 sound good at first? Yes. Did it become annoying after awhile with a muffled sound? Yes. Did the design flaws really present themselves, once I started to demo'd normal competant designed centers? Yes.

When you move off center 20degrees and you have a -10db drop between 1k and 2500ish, thats just a bad design. Its even worst at 30 and 40 degrees.
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Old 03-16-2013, 09:40 AM
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When you move off center 20degrees and you have a -10db drop between 1k and 2500ish, thats just a bad design. Its even worst at 30 and 40 degrees.
And totally predictable by just looking at them, if you know how speakers work. If you don't, not so much.

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Old 03-16-2013, 10:01 AM
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Sitting behind a keyboard assessing the sound of any hifi type speaker before hearing it is illogical, period.

That's why many people go to great lengths to audition lots of brands & models before purchasing...

TAM
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Old 03-16-2013, 10:21 AM
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Sitting behind a keyboard assessing the sound of any hifi type speaker before hearing it is illogical, period.
Not only can one assess the sound, one can design a speaker from scratch and predict with total accuracy how it will sound without ever leaving the keyboard. One can also reverse engineer any speaker using data only and know exactly how it will sound. There are many sources where one can learn how speakers work, such as this one:
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?219617-The-Speaker-Building-Bible

What is illogical is arguing about something which you do not understand. Just as illogical is my continuing to offer advise to someone not interested in receiving it, so I bid you adieu.
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