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FroggyTaco's Avatar FroggyTaco
09:11 PM Liked: 12
post #31 of 55
02-21-2013 | Posts: 47
Joined: Dec 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

XT32 may be a huge boost for you... A couple suggestions: Look at the Onkyo 818 and see if you can pick up a lower version..say a 1713 Denon and test it...that will tell you if money is well spent on the XT32

I know he already said the 818 was too tall but also the 4311 has SubEq which the 818 does not.

Big difference IMO.

Travis
Billy p's Avatar Billy p
09:56 PM Liked: 217
post #32 of 55
02-21-2013 | Posts: 1,307
Joined: Nov 2006
Another option for AVR you might want to consider are the Anthem MRX series.....their casing are nice and compact for tight fitting storage unit and they come equipped with ARC software...which is likely on par with XT32. Any concerns their's a huge thread located in the amp section with loads of help and assistance....I have the mrx300 coming from a yamaha rxv1800 and I'm very happy wiith results.


YMMV...of course...Bill
noregrets78's Avatar noregrets78
03:10 AM Liked: 11
post #33 of 55
02-22-2013 | Posts: 29
Joined: Apr 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy p View Post

Another option for AVR you might want to consider are the Anthem MRX series.....their casing are nice and compact for tight fitting storage unit and they come equipped with ARC software...which is likely on par with XT32. Any concerns their's a huge thread located in the amp section with loads of help and assistance....I have the mrx300 coming from a yamaha rxv1800 and I'm very happy wiith results.


YMMV...of course...Bill

With the Denon sporting 140watts per channel the closest model is the 700 which would be more expensive. I can get the 4311ci for 1100 on A4L.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Billy p's Avatar Billy p
06:04 AM Liked: 217
post #34 of 55
02-22-2013 | Posts: 1,307
Joined: Nov 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by noregrets78 View Post

With the Denon sporting 140watts per channel the closest model is the 700 which would be more expensive. I can get the 4311ci for 1100 on A4L.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


Yeah....that's an excellent price on the Denon but it's a referb....I believe. Anthem is only another option fitting a low profile AVR being only 6.5"H. I'm coming from a AVR rated @ 130x7 so, I was skepticle going the 300 rated 80x7 but after running ARC....I've listened at the same levels as before I can't hear NO difference....except that ARC sounds great vs the YPAO I was using prior.

You definately can't go wrong with the Denon though....smile.gif
noregrets78's Avatar noregrets78
07:33 AM Liked: 11
post #35 of 55
02-22-2013 | Posts: 29
Joined: Apr 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy p View Post

Yeah....that's an excellent price on the Denon but it's a referb....I believe. Anthem is only another option fitting a low profile AVR being only 6.5"H. I'm coming from a AVR rated @ 130x7 so, I was skepticle going the 300 rated 80x7 but after running ARC....I've listened at the same levels as before I can't hear NO difference....except that ARC sounds great vs the YPAO I was using prior.

You definately can't go wrong with the Denon though....smile.gif

I'll ask the Aperion guys when I email them today about the Anthem vs. the Denon. Thanks for the info!
ousooner2's Avatar ousooner2
08:37 AM Liked: 100
post #36 of 55
02-22-2013 | Posts: 2,175
Joined: Oct 2007
Maybe I missed it, but NoRegrets78....why do you want the XT32 so badly? I know it's gotta higher filter resolution and can eq dual subs, but I think picking up something like the 3312 or 3313 for nearly 1/2 of the 4311 price would be MUCH better for you. Still offers MultEQ XT, pre-outs, same power basically, etc etc.
noregrets78's Avatar noregrets78
09:19 AM Liked: 11
post #37 of 55
02-22-2013 | Posts: 29
Joined: Apr 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by ousooner2 View Post

Maybe I missed it, but NoRegrets78....why do you want the XT32 so badly? I know it's gotta higher filter resolution and can eq dual subs, but I think picking up something like the 3312 or 3313 for nearly 1/2 of the 4311 price would be MUCH better for you. Still offers MultEQ XT, pre-outs, same power basically, etc etc.

Honestly, I just started learning about room correction and the differences between XT and XT32. My current Denon AVR-591 has MultEQ. I wanted something that could take the room I have and make whatever speakers I invested in sound the best they possibly can. What's the point of buying expensive speakers if they aren't set up correctly?

I guess the XT could work, I just really want something that can EQ the sub and make whatever speakers I go with sound incredible. I will probably want dual subs when we move but I guess I can always pick up a different receiver then, most likely going with external amps for bigger better speakers like the JTRs. I'll have to look more into the differences between XT and XT32.
ousooner2's Avatar ousooner2
10:33 AM Liked: 100
post #38 of 55
02-22-2013 | Posts: 2,175
Joined: Oct 2007
I would say that you'd find a much larger difference in stepping up a line with speakers than going from MultEQ XT to XT32. I'm sure XT32 does a slightly better job as it has a higher filter resolution and can EQ dual subs, BUT ....if you go with that HSU you won't be needing 2 subs for awhile or unless your space is HUGE. From what I hear that sub will do some serious work

I'm just trying to help ya make what I, personally, would think is the right decision. Maybe someone can chime in here and give an opinion based on the opposite thinking. I just think option 1 would be quite a bit better than option 2. You're not going to need a ton of EQ when you get into nicer speakers anyways. I would think the relative value of EQ would decline a little. No point in buying a slightly better EQ to do slightly worse speakers ya know. MultEQ XT does a great job for most when set up properly.


Edit: Regarding what you said at Audioholics, the Forte and Grand center seem to be timbre matched so the Forte should be fine for you. At least that's what I've heard
noregrets78's Avatar noregrets78
11:18 AM Liked: 11
post #39 of 55
02-22-2013 | Posts: 29
Joined: Apr 2007
First, let me say thank you for all of your assistance! I'd be completely lost without these forums and gentlemen like yourself.

I'd hesitate to get the VGTs and pair them with the Forte center. I know they are timber matched but it would kill me and my OCD to not match the towers to the center. Logical? Probably not but I have some serious issues.

If I'm going to drop the receiver budget Id rather either spring for the HtR upgrades on the ascends or go with the Forte towers, center and rears.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edit:

So I looked into the 2313ci and the 3313ci.

Aperion speakers are 6ohms.

The 2313 states:
Power Output Per Channel(20Hz-20kHz, 0.08%THD@8ohm) 105 Watts
Power Output Per Channel(1kHz, 0.7%THD@6ohm) 135 Watts

The 3313 states:
Power Output Per Channel(20Hz-20kHz, 0.08%THD@8ohm) 125 Watts (.05%THD)
Power Output Per Channel(1kHz, 0.7%THD@6ohm) 165 Watts

Both have MultEQ XT.

The power rating for the Aperion speakers does not exceed 150 Watts max (Forte Satellites).

The towers can take up to 300.

Based on that, which would you choose?
ousooner2's Avatar ousooner2
12:06 PM Liked: 100
post #40 of 55
02-22-2013 | Posts: 2,175
Joined: Oct 2007
Hahah. I would be the same way. Even if they looked the same, but I knew they weren't...it'd drive me nuts. With something like:

Denon 3312/3313
Verus Forte Towers
Verus Forte Center
Verus Forte Bookshelves
HSU VTF-15H

That setup will likely blow you away and make you happy for a VERY long time. If not, you can easily return and move on. Sounds like a good game plan to me!
noregrets78's Avatar noregrets78
12:20 PM Liked: 11
post #41 of 55
02-22-2013 | Posts: 29
Joined: Apr 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by ousooner2 View Post

Hahah. I would be the same way. Even if they looked the same, but I knew they weren't...it'd drive me nuts. With something like:

Denon 3312/3313
Verus Forte Towers
Verus Forte Center
Verus Forte Bookshelves
HSU VTF-15H

That setup will likely blow you away and make you happy for a VERY long time. If not, you can easily return and move on. Sounds like a good game plan to me!

Sounds good to me too!!!

Have to calculate the final cost to confirm but I REALLY like that plan. I was so dead set on getting XT32 that I kinda dismissed cheaper receivers that will still give great sound. Sometimes I can get stuck on stupid. Looks like I'll be saving the XT32 for when I get the JTR's in the future.
noregrets78's Avatar noregrets78
12:33 PM Liked: 11
post #42 of 55
02-22-2013 | Posts: 29
Joined: Apr 2007
Ok so with the refurb 3313ci, its a little over 200 more to go that route. That's fine. I can justify that. And thats shipped with the 5 year warranty from A4L.

Now I just need to learn about bi-amping. smile.gif
Newbie01's Avatar Newbie01
07:05 PM Liked: 30
post #43 of 55
02-22-2013 | Posts: 834
Joined: Jul 2001
Quote:
Originally Posted by noregrets78 View Post

Ok so with the refurb 3313ci, its a little over 200 more to go that route. That's fine. I can justify that. And thats shipped with the 5 year warranty from A4L.

Now I just need to learn about bi-amping. smile.gif

If your stepping down to MultEQ XT and your only going 5.1 there is no reason to go beyond the 2113 or 2112....and you can really go with the 1712 or 1713. That will save you a ton of dough...but that is a decision you will have to make with respect to MultEQ XT.

Now some people find this..not nice... It is your call but go to BB and see if the XT 32 makes a differance in your house. They do have a nice return policy.

The only reason to be going with anything above the 2113 is because you do multi-zone etc IF you are ok with the MultEQ XT.

As far as power... Lets not forget 100 to 140 watts per channel is not a whole lot of sounds differance. That is because of the vast diminishing returns power has on loudness. I am sure someone allot smarter can explain it better than me. 50 watts only = .5 db differance which is not discernable by most people.

Again...if I am wrong please feel free to jump on me with your good leg and club foot and yank out my back hairs with the lips of a long dead fish.

As for bi-amping...that is a WHOLE different thead...in vast majority number of cases it is snake oil. At least...that is what I understand from reading these forums.
noregrets78's Avatar noregrets78
09:05 PM Liked: 11
post #44 of 55
02-22-2013 | Posts: 29
Joined: Apr 2007
I'll definitely look into the 2313 for a while. The only thing I see on the 3313 that might be desirable is the AL24+ processing for 2 channel listening. Because of lag in the mic, Rock Band has to be played in stereo. For the past two receivers I have had, having Dolby on at all introduces such a lag in the mic that the echo is unbearable when singing. Will have to research further.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

If your stepping down to MultEQ XT and your only going 5.1 there is no reason to go beyond the 2113 or 2112....and you can really go with the 1712 or 1713. That will save you a ton of dough...but that is a decision you will have to make with respect to MultEQ XT.

Now some people find this..not nice... It is your call but go to BB and see if the XT 32 makes a differance in your house. They do have a nice return policy.

The only reason to be going with anything above the 2113 is because you do multi-zone etc IF you are ok with the MultEQ XT.

As far as power... Lets not forget 100 to 140 watts per channel is not a whole lot of sounds differance. That is because of the vast diminishing returns power has on loudness. I am sure someone allot smarter can explain it better than me. 50 watts only = .5 db differance which is not discernable by most people.

Again...if I am wrong please feel free to jump on me with your good leg and club foot and yank out my back hairs with the lips of a long dead fish.

As for bi-amping...that is a WHOLE different thead...in vast majority number of cases it is snake oil. At least...that is what I understand from reading these forums.

cchunter's Avatar cchunter
07:37 AM Liked: 560
post #45 of 55
02-23-2013 | Posts: 1,452
Joined: Feb 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

Got you on size limitations...

That being the case...go for the Aperion. If you dont like them..return them and come back and tell us.

For your situation...just my opinion...HSU gives you more bang for the buck there. Aperion makes a great set of speakers.

Not sure what price your looking at for the Denon but you may give accessories4less a try. They are very reputable and an authorized dealer. I have never read a bad thing about them. It may save you a few bucks.

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/DENAVR4311CI/DENON-AVR-4311CI-9.2-Channel-Network-Home-Theater-Receiver/1.html
Wow thanks for the link, that is a very good price on the 4311
Newbie01's Avatar Newbie01
09:08 AM Liked: 30
post #46 of 55
02-23-2013 | Posts: 834
Joined: Jul 2001
Here is a link for a discussion on AL24+ processing ... Looks like a very marginal, if any, improvement... I have not heard it but it has the ring of marketing hype not truely useful function.
http://www.avtalk.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-20072.html
noregrets78's Avatar noregrets78
07:37 AM Liked: 11
post #47 of 55
02-28-2013 | Posts: 29
Joined: Apr 2007
Newbie01, I have taken what you said and have been researching for the past week to try and figure out what the best route to go is.

Room diagram is in the first post. Viewing distance is about 16-17'.

I don't need zones or any additional outputs so those don't matter. Basically it comes down to this:

2113ci
Power .08THD@8ohms - 95 watts
Power .7THD@6ohms - 125

3313ci
Power .05THD@8ohms - 125 watts
Power .7THD@6ohms - 165

Adds Dynamic Discrete Sound Circuit - HD
Adds Audio Upsampling AL24 Plus
Adds Jitter Free Transmission - Hybrid PLL Jitter Reducer

As you can see I probably could eliminate the 2313 as a choice simply because 10 watts between the 2113 and the 2313 really doesn't mean much and I don't need the extra zones. All other features are the same.

The jump to the 3313ci adds 30 watts per channel, slightly less THD (meaningful?), and the extra features of DDSC-HD, AL24 Plus, and Hybrid PLL Jitter Reducer.

I have been researching these options for a while now but no one seems to be able to say if they mean anything important. This of course will be used with the Verus Forte towers, surrounds, center and HSU VTF-15H sub.

Any insight you could provide would be extremely helpful as the jump in price from the 2113 to the 3313 is significant. I'm willing to pay it though for better audio quality. In about 5 years when we move I'm probably going with separates anyway so the receiver will be sold.

Thank you again for all of the advice you give!
cchunter's Avatar cchunter
07:53 AM Liked: 560
post #48 of 55
02-28-2013 | Posts: 1,452
Joined: Feb 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by noregrets78 View Post

Newbie01, I have taken what you said and have been researching for the past week to try and figure out what the best route to go is.

Room diagram is in the first post. Viewing distance is about 16-17'.

I don't need zones or any additional outputs so those don't matter. Basically it comes down to this:

2113ci
Power .08THD@8ohms - 95 watts
Power .7THD@6ohms - 125

3313ci
Power .05THD@8ohms - 125 watts
Power .7THD@6ohms - 165

Adds Dynamic Discrete Sound Circuit - HD
Adds Audio Upsampling AL24 Plus
Adds Jitter Free Transmission - Hybrid PLL Jitter Reducer

As you can see I probably could eliminate the 2313 as a choice simply because 10 watts between the 2113 and the 2313 really doesn't mean much and I don't need the extra zones. All other features are the same.

The jump to the 3313ci adds 30 watts per channel, slightly less THD (meaningful?), and the extra features of DDSC-HD, AL24 Plus, and Hybrid PLL Jitter Reducer.

I have been researching these options for a while now but no one seems to be able to say if they mean anything important. This of course will be used with the Verus Forte towers, surrounds, center and HSU VTF-15H sub.

Any insight you could provide would be extremely helpful as the jump in price from the 2113 to the 3313 is significant. I'm willing to pay it though for better audio quality. In about 5 years when we move I'm probably going with separates anyway so the receiver will be sold.

Thank you again for all of the advice you give!
I would definately go with the 3313. In fact that will be my next upgrade sometime this year.
AcuDefTechGuy
08:20 AM Liked: 239
post #49 of 55
02-28-2013 | Posts: 4,286
Joined: Dec 2007
First, I would never buy a refurbished AVR if I could get a similar price on a new or open box from an authorized dealer (same as new warranty).

Second, I would also get the Denon 3312/3313. Give Electronics Expo a call on the phone and negotiate a price of $550 on the Denon 3312. It can be done. It has been done. The 3313 would be $800. If they have any 4311 left, it would be $1225 delivered.

Third, I would also get those Focal speakers from A4L. Great price for some great speakers.
cchunter's Avatar cchunter
09:19 AM Liked: 560
post #50 of 55
02-28-2013 | Posts: 1,452
Joined: Feb 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

First, I would never buy a refurbished AVR if I could get a similar price on a new or open box from an authorized dealer (same as new warranty).

Second, I would also get the Denon 3312/3313. Give Electronics Expo a call on the phone and negotiate a price of $550 on the Denon 3312. It can be done. It has been done. The 3313 would be $800. If they have any 4311 left, it would be $1225 delivered.

Third, I would also get those Focal speakers from A4L. Great price for some great speakers.
I agree I would never get a refurbished AVR. Electronics Expo is a great choice as I ordered a pair of RS52ii's for 550 from them. They replied back and said they were all out and gave me the RS62ii's for the same price as the 52ii's. Thats a 400 dollar upgrade for free. Very good customer service! Highly recommend them!
noregrets78's Avatar noregrets78
09:28 AM Liked: 11
post #51 of 55
02-28-2013 | Posts: 29
Joined: Apr 2007
I'm sorry you guys feel that way about refurbished AVR's. I'm buying from A4L with a 5 year warranty so any issues are completely covered. A4L has stellar user reviews and plenty of people have purchased refurb units from them without issue. Would I prefer new? Absolutely. Not spending hundreds more though for a new when a warranty covered refurb works the same exact way.
cel4145's Avatar cel4145
10:47 AM Liked: 781
post #52 of 55
02-28-2013 | Posts: 11,761
Joined: Mar 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by noregrets78 View Post

I'm sorry you guys feel that way about refurbished AVR's. I'm buying from A4L with a 5 year warranty so any issues are completely covered. A4L has stellar user reviews and plenty of people have purchased refurb units from them without issue. Would I prefer new? Absolutely. Not spending hundreds more though for a new when a warranty covered refurb works the same exact way.

My mother and my brother both have refurbished Marantz AVRs from A4L. My brother has had his for about 4 years, and for the last two, he has been using it to run the sound system in in his restaurant. Still going strong.
noregrets78's Avatar noregrets78
12:34 PM Liked: 11
post #53 of 55
02-28-2013 | Posts: 29
Joined: Apr 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

My mother and my brother both have refurbished Marantz AVRs from A4L. My brother has had his for about 4 years, and for the last two, he has been using it to run the sound system in in his restaurant. Still going strong.

Thank you for the positive review! Maybe we can convert a few people in here smile.gif
smasher50's Avatar smasher50
02:26 PM Liked: 2271
post #54 of 55
02-28-2013 | Posts: 2,556
Joined: Apr 2009
fwiw, i also bought a denon avr791 from ac4l over 2 years ago and have had no problems. i've also bought 2 brand new onkyo avrs over the years and also my dad from best buy and had to return all of them because of hdmi problems. ive also purchased a harman kardon avr354 refurb. from their ebay online store about 4 years ago and have had no problems. just my 2 cents. electronics are the most risky items to purchase
noregrets78's Avatar noregrets78
05:28 AM Liked: 11
post #55 of 55
03-08-2013 | Posts: 29
Joined: Apr 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by smasher50 View Post

fwiw, i also bought a denon avr791 from ac4l over 2 years ago and have had no problems. i've also bought 2 brand new onkyo avrs over the years and also my dad from best buy and had to return all of them because of hdmi problems. ive also purchased a harman kardon avr354 refurb. from their ebay online store about 4 years ago and have had no problems. just my 2 cents. electronics are the most risky items to purchase

Agreed. Buying used online without possibility of return or warranty I wouldn't do. If I bought a used receiver on eBay I would get a SquareTrade warranty for it. A4L actually offers longer coverage at a better price than SquareTrade for their refurbs. Anything goes wrong Ill just use the warranty. Since A4L has such a large amount of positive reviews I feel confident buying from them.


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