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Old 02-25-2013, 05:16 PM - Thread Starter
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We are building a house and it will be complete around 3-4 months. I need a new setup for our living room. I'm looking to spend around 1000 for receiver, speakers and sub. My main concerns are movies and TV. Looking for a 5.1. Music will be played through a 2.1 somewhere else.
I have used HTIB's all my college life, now I would like to upgrade. My living room is 17.5x16 and is open to the kitchen and dining room. I have provided both possible solutions to the living room arrangement. Also, which layout would be better for entertainment? (Note) The upper left white box is the fireplace and the TV will be mounted above it. Also, the house will come prewired for surround sound (not sure what that means since it is just $55) where are the best placements? One last thing, the wife doesn't want towers or bookshelf speakers. Thanks for all replies.


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Old 02-25-2013, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Nbaylot46 View Post

I have provided both possible solutions to the living room arrangement. Also, which layout would be better for entertainment? (Note) The upper left white box is the fireplace and the TV will be mounted above it.

I guess the second arrangement would give viewers better viewing angles of the TV overall, if it must be placed over the fireplace. Personally, I don't see the point in putting TVs over fireplaces, though, especially since they usually end up mounted quite high. Isn't looking upward all the time when watching TV or a movie kind of annoying? In my opinion, it would be better to move the TV to the wall on the left, mounted at eye level, and otherwise use the first arrangement.
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Also, the house will come prewired for surround sound (not sure what that means since it is just $55) where are the best placements?

If you end up going with the TV over the fireplace and the second arrangement, then the surround speakers should probably be placed on the two walls opposite the TV, one-third of the way from the left on the "bottom" wall (in the diagram) and one-third of the way down on the "right" wall, both angled toward the central viewing location. Now, you said that your living room will be open to the dining room, but will there be a partial wall there? If not, then you may have to mount that speaker on the ceiling.

As for the front speakers, I guess they would be mounted around the TV. How much room is there for them? And as for the subwoofer, that should go wherever it happens to sound the best.
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One last thing, the wife doesn't want towers or bookshelf speakers. Thanks for all replies.

Would she prefer in-wall speakers, flat ones that are flush against the wall, or itty-bitty tiny ones? (the latter would make it difficult to improve significantly upon HTIBs, however) Would she be willing to compromise with relatively compact bookshelf speakers? If so, then approximately how large can they be?
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Old 02-25-2013, 06:32 PM
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I hate to make suggestions that were not an option, but have you considered mounting the TV straight ahead of the couch, on the left wall? Position 1 but not above the fireplace? Some TVs are horrid on wide angles unless they are plasma tech. Do you already have the TV purchased? If not then certainly Position 2.

I'm going to agree with the above post that satellites are not much of an upgrade, you just get a chance at a slightly larger subwoofer. Can you get away with wall mounted speakers?

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Old 02-25-2013, 06:53 PM - Thread Starter
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She doesn't want the Tv on the wall because she doesn't want two focal points. There is nothing between the rooms it is truly open. I have thought about in wall but don't know about the rears.

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Old 02-26-2013, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Nbaylot46 View Post

She doesn't want the Tv on the wall because she doesn't want two focal points.

Ah yes, I see what you mean (nods thoughtfully, pretending to have a clue wink.gif).
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There is nothing between the rooms it is truly open.

So I guess it's in- or on-ceiling, then, for the surrounds.
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I have thought about in wall but don't know about the rears.

Well, the surrounds (not rears in a 5.1 system, but rather sides) could be placed in the ceiling. Some even have drivers that can be directed toward the viewing area for better sound quality. Let us know whether you're interested in discussing in-wall (maybe for the front speakers) and/or in-ceiling (for the surrounds) options.

For now, it would be helpful to get more feedback about where the front speakers could be placed around the TV, such as on the wall beside it or on the fireplace mantle, for example. Your diagrams are very helpful, but still don't show us absolutely everything we need to know.

Just to get things rolling, consider the following speaker:
http://www.polkaudio.com/products/owm5

You can get these for about $90 each if you shop around, and they also come in white if that would help. They can be mounted right up against the wall and are only a bit over 4" deep. Could you accommodate something like this for your front speakers? Could you go with something a bit larger?
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Old 02-26-2013, 05:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Here are some photos of the model home that has the same layout
At this point I think I'm looking for advice on placement.
I am for any type of speaker except towers now.

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Old 02-27-2013, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Anybody?

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Old 02-27-2013, 05:32 PM
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You are not getting many responses because of the corner placement.

I know you said she does not want 2 focal points but if you ever plan on watching TV when the fire is on, it is going to drive you nuts. Your eyes will be drawn to the fire. I know because that is our setup upstairs and I always have to turn the fire off if we are trying to watch TV at the same time.

The corner is the worst place for your speakers as it will give you a narrow soundstage and very difficult placement for your speakers and it also limits how large your speakers and TV can be.

I would either advocate small bookshelf speakers or go with in-wall for the mains and in-ceiling for the surrounds. It is what it is. Worst case get a nicer sound bar with a good subwoofer and call it a day.
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Old 02-27-2013, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Nbaylot46 View Post

Anybody?

As helpful as your visual aids have been, and they are appreciated, this is a challenging scenario (corner placement usually is), and I could perhaps be of more help if you'd answer the questions I've asked above. In fact, I have even more questions for you. How large is your TV set going to be? How wide is that wall the fireplace is located in? How deep is your fireplace mantel going to be (just in case we need that)? There are all kinds of placement options possible, but I need some more numbers before I can tell you what can fit where.
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Ah yes, I knew the fireplace would be an obstacle. Now in your most persuasive voice sway my wife lol. I do not know the dimensions of the wall. The Tv on that wall is a 46 if that helps. At this point I would consider anything except towers (you know who). It has to be mounted or in wall/ceiling. I looked into energy cb5/10 around with matching center and a bic pl200 with a denon avr 1613 but am concerned about size of the speakers and how large is too large for mounting on wall. Maybe two bookshelves in front pointed towards us and ceiling mounts with directional drivers for side. I am perplexed about the front right placement.

I like these systems.
1) Energy cb5/10 x4
Matching center with bic pl200

2) def tech pro cinema 600

3) klipsch hd 1000

4) Polk owm5?

5) I believe I read in a post somewhere about htd level twos surround and bookshelves. How are these?

Denon avr 1613 is most likely the receiver

I have a lot of openness and want to address that.

I don't know much about in wall / ceiling



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Old 02-27-2013, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
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What about two in walls in the wall with the fireplace with a center and two in ceilings catacornered on top of the couch?

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Old 02-27-2013, 08:11 PM
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What about two in walls in the wall with the fireplace with a center and two in ceilings catacornered on top of the couch?

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You would need to work with the contractor on in-walls.. They have to be able to fit within the stud cavities which should be 16" on center. That could be really tight, and then you have the center channel to deal with.. If the builder would allow, you would want to buy the in-wall speakers before they frame so they can frame the walls accordingly. If you plan it with them and they are willing to work with you, it should be doable.

Some great deals on these:
http://store.audioholics.com/clearance/atlantic-technology-iwts-7lcr-s.html

Well within your budget and I have never seen them on a clearance like that. I would go with in-ceiling surrounds.

Otherwise a narrow bookshelf speaker like the Deftech Pro Cinema series should work fine.
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Old 02-27-2013, 08:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Old 02-27-2013, 09:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Another question... Lets say I can't do in wall in the fireplace wall. What about four in ceiling directional with a center on the mantle? How bad is the sound going to be for the fronts?

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Old 02-28-2013, 09:42 AM
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I was hesitant to answer due to the corner placement to be honest. It doesn't have to be this particular speaker but you should get something similar to the DefTech ProCinema and i would suggest 3xPC800, then two ceiling speakers for the rear. Those speakers can be mounted to the wall and pivot. That will be the best soundstage possible that I can think of.

R channel between window and TV, pointed at you. L symmetrical to that. Center below TV. Use the same speaker 3 times.

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Old 02-28-2013, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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So no procenter 1000? Would the in ceiling be tonally matched to the def techs?

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Old 02-28-2013, 10:21 AM
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MSRP of the ProCenter 1000 is $220 and the ProM 800 is $145. Another ProMon 800 tonally matches exactly, and centers are nothing but horizontal speakers since we tend to use TV stands to place them. A center is horizontal because it can fit in most living rooms that way. So yes definitely skip the ProC 1000.

No, a ceiling speaker may be close but it wont tonally match the PC 800s perfect. It will be close enough to be very satisfying. ProM 800 can be found in white if that look/sounds better on the ceiling to you. I have never seen them mounted on the ceiling. they may just need to be flipped upside down and aimed correctly.

PC600 is too small for your room which I see is about an 18' by 18' listening area. I'd cheap out on rears to get a good subwoofer. Rears can be swapped out later if you like without needing to move any major wiring. That's where I penny pinched on my system, and decided not to go with matching series.

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Old 02-28-2013, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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I'd probably do four 800's as the ceilings would most likely cost more with brackets and a box or padding to prevent loss of sound going up. I have another thread with a question on satellites it involves which set to choose from the def techs 800's; klipsch rb41,rc42,rs41; energy cb10, cc10,cr10. All this paired with something like a bic pl200 or f12 with a denon avr 1613

There is no where to listen to these locally



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Old 02-28-2013, 12:00 PM
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Ah yes, I knew the fireplace would be an obstacle. Now in your most persuasive voice sway my wife lol.

OK, you asked for it--I'll try my best. (Summoning my deepest, most authoritative baritone) WOMAN! Your husband asked us for our considered opinion on this matter. The TV belongs on the left wall, and that's where it is going to go, so you might as well learn to deal with it! mad.gif

Nbaylot46, I hope that your sofa is really comfortable to sleep on--just a friendly heads-up. wink.gif
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I do not know the dimensions of the wall. The Tv on that wall is a 46 if that helps.

Yes, the wall is therefore about 6 feet wide (conservatively), and the fireplace mantle is about 5 feet wide. That should be large enough to accommodate most TVs and a fair variety of speakers, but may present a problem for in-wall speakers unless your TV is really small.
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At this point I would consider anything except towers (you know who). It has to be mounted or in wall/ceiling. I looked into energy cb5/10 around with matching center and a bic pl200 with a denon avr 1613 but am concerned about size of the speakers and how large is too large for mounting on wall.

That's what I wanted to know, because the for sound quality your best option would be wall-mounted bookshelf speakers of minimal size (although tiny is not quite going to cut it in a room of this size with the distances involved). The Energy CB-5 is obviously better for aesthetics than the CB-10, but on the other hand the CB-10 is really the minimum size for good sound, if that.
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Maybe two bookshelves in front pointed towards us and ceiling mounts with directional drivers for side.

I'm thinking now that maybe a better compromise for the surrounds would be on or in the walls, the right surround on the top wall (in your diagrams) as far from the TV as necessary in order to bring it generally in line with the right sides of the viewers, and the left surround on the left side of the bottom wall. In-ceiling surrounds would ideally be close to those positions anyway so that their sound wouldn't seem to be coming from way above the viewers.
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I am perplexed about the front right placement.

Well, you could mount the front left & right speakers on the same wall as the TV, one on each side of it, or on the top and left walls not far from the TV, the right one being just to the left of the window. In the latter case, you would want to use mounts that can swivel, such as the OmniMount 20.0.
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I like these systems.
1) Energy cb5/10 x4
Matching center with bic pl200

2) def tech pro cinema 600

3) klipsch hd 1000

4) Polk owm5?

5) I believe I read in a post somewhere about htd level twos surround and bookshelves. How are these?

I actually looked into the HTD level TWOs for you earlier, and they are well liked, but like the Energy speakers they may be a bit on the large side for your situation, aesthetically speaking (you tell us)--that's why I hadn't mentioned them. The others are smaller but may not have enough "grunt" for this size room. Obviously, like most things in life, you may have to compromise. One of the best points of compromise that I know of between size and output capability in typical home theaters is the Ascend Acoustics HTM-200 SE:
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/htm200/htm200.html

Its cost is a bit high for your specified budget ($468 for three or $722 for five), but you could get away with smaller, less expensive speakers for surrounds, such as some of the ones you mentioned above or the Polk OWM3, which is small and pretty thin. The HTM-200 SE is also a better speaker than the others--in a different class, really, in my opinion. And because of its highly offset tweeter and closely placed midwoofers, it has quite good dispersion when oriented horizontally, which means that you could potentially place three of them across your mantel, sort of like a soundbar (but far superior). Its relatively shallow depth for its size (only 6 3/8") and output capability may help with placement, as well.
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Denon avr 1613 is most likely the receiver

I have a lot of openness and want to address that.

This would be a solid choice, and if you wouldn't mind buying a refurbished unit, you could get one for $230 (plus shipping):
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/DENAVR1613/DENON-AVR-1613-5.1ch-Networking-Receiver-w/AirPlay-3D-ready/1.html?c=t5

Or the 1612 could be had for $200 (plus shipping):
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/DENAVR1612/DENON-AVR-1612-5.1-Channel-A/V-Home-Theater-Receiver/1.html?c=t5
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I don't know much about in wall / ceiling

Neither do I, actually, but I know that they entail additional placement issues regarding the internal structure of your walls, whereas small bookshelf speakers could be placed or mounted almost anywhere you could fit them.
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Another question... Lets say I can't do in wall in the fireplace wall. What about four in ceiling directional with a center on the mantle? How bad is the sound going to be for the fronts?

As you suspect, it would be bad--you might be able to get away with it with the surrounds, but it's never good to have your front soundstage come from the ceiling. Having a regular center on the mantle would help a lot for some things, such as dialogue, but then it wouldn't mesh well with the other front speakers. If you were going to place a center speaker on the mantle anyway, then you might as well place the others on it, too--despite the narrow separation, it would be better than in-ceiling placement, in my opinion.
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Old 02-28-2013, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Any other suggestion would be nice

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Old 02-28-2013, 12:08 PM
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I'd probably do four 800's as the ceilings would most likely cost more with brackets and a box or padding to prevent loss of sound going up. I have another thread with a question on satellites it involves which set to choose from the def techs 800's; klipsch rb41,rc42,rs41; energy cb10, cc10,cr10. All this paired with something like a bic pl200 or f12 with a denon avr 1613

In that case, definitely go for the Ascend HTM-200 SE. While it's bigger than the ProMonitor 800, it's still pretty compact, and it's more capable and a much better value.
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Old 02-28-2013, 12:37 PM
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Why 4 speakers? And certainly consider the Ascend speakers. I like DT but there's nothing overwhelming about the ProM 800, that I wouldn't consider a similar cheaper performer.

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Old 02-28-2013, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I think I meant 5. I have looked at the ascends and like that option alot. The only thing I wish about them is if they came in white. I am going to get on my tablet and try to make a diagram of where they will be. Thanks for all the responses, I will post back in a minute with the diagram

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Old 02-28-2013, 02:34 PM - Thread Starter
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1) 8adygeby.jpg

2) sapa7ypy.jpg

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Old 02-28-2013, 02:52 PM
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Have you considered these from HTD??

Might be able to mount on right on the mantle and the L & R on the same wall as the TV or just to the right and left of the fireplace wall.
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Old 02-28-2013, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
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.......... Why throw a wrench in there Ahhhhhhhhhh. I was jk, thanks for that suggestion. So compared to the ascends what is the quality to cost ratio and driver size. Those do look good.

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Old 02-28-2013, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
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So compared to the ascends what is the quality to cost ratio and driver size. Those do look good.

I looked at these speakers myself earlier, when I was checking out the HTD website. For that matter, I also checked these out: http://www.emptek.com/onwall.php

If you're referring to the Middy, it's a pretty small speaker that has two 2.5" drivers (in addition to the tweeter). Even with the bass reflex port, it's only rated down to 100 Hz, so you'd have to cross over to the subwoofer at an even higher frequency (maybe like 120 Hz); additionally, it doesn't specify -3 dB at 100 Hz, so we can't even be sure of that (maybe the crossover would be 150 Hz).

As for the HTD Flat Panel, it has two 4" drivers, which is better, and two 2.5" midrange drivers (in addition to the tweeter), but it just seems kind of ridiculous to me. Regarding aesthetics, although it's fairly thin and narrow, it's over 2 feet long! And in terms of performance, it only gets down to 80 Hz according to the specs, and that's without qualification and with bass reflex ports, which means that you'd definitely have to cross them over higher than 80 Hz. Virtually all flat panel-type speakers suffer from a lack of bass, even ones with more impressive-looking specs--when you actually play something audible, they tend to wimp out. In addition, the wide spacing between the drivers, and the twin midrange drivers (is this really necessary in such a speaker?) mean that it almost certainly has narrow dispersion along its main axis, making it ill-suited for use as a horizontally-oriented center speaker (oriented vertically it would do fine).

In contrast, the HTM-200 SE is only 11" x 6.5" x 6.375", has two very high quality (for the price) 4" midwoofers that are closely spaced for wider dispersion when used as a horizontally-oriented center, and reaches down to 74 Hz (-3 dB) with a sealed box design (acoustic suspension, no ports), which is just right for crossing over to the sub at 80 Hz, and in practice they hold up well for speakers of this size, even in rooms as large as yours. I'm not saying that bigger wouldn't be better, but if you're going to use small speakers, then these are the best that I know of in this price range (or most any price range, for that matter). As for sound quality, they're comparable in most respects to the larger speakers of the Ascend SE series--"tight" and accurate in every way to the limits of their price range. HTDs are pretty good speakers, too, but I'd recommend their bookshelf speakers over the Middy or Flat Panel.
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Old 02-28-2013, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for fixing that wrench. So is the f12 adequate enough for around 200? Is there something else I should be considering?

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Old 02-28-2013, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Nbaylot46 View Post

Thanks for fixing that wrench. So is the f12 adequate enough for around 200? Is there something else I should be considering?

I think that the BIC F12 is a very "safe" choice to make at this price point. By "safe" I mean that it's a great value and there aren't a lot of complaints about it, and while some folks think that maybe a few other subs, such as the Velodyne VX-11 and Polk PSW505, sound a little tighter--just maybe--they cost a bit more at present and probably do not dig as deeply as the F12 in terms of low frequency extension. Another interesting option is the JBL SUB150P at only $150. It is said to sound remarkably good, very articulate and controlled for a subwoofer (budget or otherwise), although it may be more limited in output than the F12 and is definitely more limited in low frequency extension. One thing that concerns me about it is that it is said to run hot, which is not good for electronics (or most anything else except for incandescent light bulbs and stoves wink.gif). The F12 is still a safer choice overall, in my opinion, but of course it's up to you. As for whether the F12 would have enough output capability for your room...well, it definitely won't pressurize your living space, but depending on placement it should be enough to satisfy, I think--I'll look into it further and get back to you on this.

By the way, I sure miss the days when the Energy S10.3 subwoofer regularly went on sale for about $200--talk about a no-brainer! smile.gif
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Old 03-01-2013, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
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I've been reading a lot on the sub category. It seems the Polk 505 and BIC F12 are usually thrown in together. I have seen that JBL and am very interested in it. What are the pros and cons of down firing vs front firing. From my very little research, I read that it doesn't matter because bass is non-directional. Also, I read that the F12 is actually a 10" with 2" of foam around. The RMS output on the JBL is higher and the design is a little cooler ha. I am very new to subwoofers and don't really know what to look for but I know JBL makes good car subwoofers. That kinda leads to another question. Why is there so much difference in companies with home audio subs as opposed to car audio? I use to have Audiobahn's, JBL's and Rocksford Fosgates; where are those?
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