Speakers for a 5.1 setup on a Denon 1913 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 37 Old 02-27-2013, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
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I was hoping to get some advice on some speakers for a 5.1 setup on a Denon 1913.

(Since I am only looking to do a 5.1 setup I was going to get the 1713 due to the better Audyssey. However, there is a deal on the 1913 right now for $279 w/ free shipping. It was too good and I bit, so this is what I have.)


I am aiming to get a high-end budget setup (if that makes sense). I have a smaller living room and live in an apartment. This will probably not change for a few years yet. I am primarily concerned with getting a nice quality sound at a decible level that will not disturb the upstairs/downstairs neighbors. With that said, I would still like them to have some "breathing room" for when I do get my own place or when the neighbors are away so I can have a little fun. The main use would be to watch movies on DVD/Blu-Ray, but I also will use it for video games and music listening as well. My accompanying devices are: Pioneer Kuro HDTV, PS3, Xbox 360, NAS (for streaming video/audio), occasionally connecting my computer to it.


My budget is around $600 for the speakers and sub for a 5.1 setup. But that is more of a flexible ballpark number. If I am getting quite a bit of value by spending a bit more I am willing to do so.


I have been looking around and I have seen quite a number of recommendations for this SP-PK52FS Andrew Jones designed Pioneer set:
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/Speakers/Home+Theater+Speakers/SP-PK52FS

That link sells the package for $550. I thought I might be able to get a better deal at Amazon, but they sell all the speakers individually, and when I added them all up it was actually a little more.


So I guess my questions are: Would you recommend this Pioneer 5.1 package too? Is $550 a good price or do you think I could find it cheaper elsewhere? Do you think a different set of speakers would suit be better? If so what?


I am still relatively new to this so any advice is welcome.
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post #2 of 37 Old 02-27-2013, 11:12 AM
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I've been running the first edition Andrew Jones Pioneer speakers for over a year now. I'm more than satisfied with their sound quality and price. Don't think you can really get much better at the price these are.

If I were you though, I would simply get the floorstanders, center, and bookshelf speakers and buy a different subwoofer. The Pioneer speakers with a Bic F12 or Polk PSW505 would put you around $630 or so. But the upgrade in bass quality is well worth it.

I ran with the Bic F12 with the Pioneer's and it was great. Any less of a subwoofer and it just won't do the system justice.

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post #3 of 37 Old 02-27-2013, 11:14 AM
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On that budget I think the Andrew Jones speakers are about as good as it gets.
Another option would be to build your system slowly. Maybe start with a pair of nicer towers or bookshelves, then add a center, than a sub, and finally surrounds.
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post #4 of 37 Old 02-27-2013, 11:55 AM
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I didn't get the full 5.1 Pioneer package, but I had the FS52s, the SW8-MK2 and the 1913 correction: 2113CI. That setup sounded good, but I ended up getting Cambridge Audio S30s, an SVS SB12-NSD sub and a Marantz SR5007 (the 1913 2113CI sounded great, I mainly got the SR5007 for the futute-proofing preouts). Here's the saga: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1453448/dynamics-at-the-front-fs52-s30-or-hb-1-mk2/60
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Originally Posted by Goride View Post

I am primarily concerned with getting a nice quality sound at a decible level that will not disturb the upstairs/downstairs neighbors.

One of the things I like about the S30s is that they don't need to be loud to sound vivid, full and engaging.

Also, I made a 'Subdude' out of some Home Depot MDF, cardboard and squishy packing foam. Since putting it under the sub, there are no rattles in the room and the the floor doesn't feel like it might cave in during action sequences. Such a thing might help keep your neighbors at bay.
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post #5 of 37 Old 02-27-2013, 12:00 PM
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This thread sounds like exactly like my plan as well. I'm hoping to catch the same 1913 deal. I already bought the two Pioneer towers and will buying the center, surround, and bic-12 from Amazon hopefully on Friday. Looking forward to a massive upgrade from my old sony HTIB that's 6 or 7 years old.
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post #6 of 37 Old 02-27-2013, 08:13 PM
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Where did you find the 1913 for that price?
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post #7 of 37 Old 02-28-2013, 06:07 AM
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Denon.com has a coupon (DENON20 if I remember correctly) for 20% off a purchase. Free shipping too.
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post #8 of 37 Old 02-28-2013, 06:11 AM
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This will be a massive upgrade from a HTIB system. You don't realize how much you've been missing until you have a good system.

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post #9 of 37 Old 02-28-2013, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the replies.


I am still trying to decide whether I want to go with that Pioneer Andrew Jones setup or get 4 Cambridge s30 and a s50 (or even another s30 as a mid).

Unfortunately, I do not really have the option of listening to them beforehand. But according to all the reviews I cannot really go wrong with either.



(and yes I used that DENON20 code on Denon's site for a refurbished model to bring it down to $280)
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post #10 of 37 Old 02-28-2013, 08:18 PM
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For $600:
If you can fit the Cadence CSX12 Mark II, that seems like a good option. Then get as many S30s or BS22s as you can. Btw my vote is solidly and without hesitation for the S30s but it seems like they might be going out of stock soon.

For more than $600:
Consider a Hsu VTF or SVS sub. Also consider the HB-1 MK2s if the S30s aren't an option.

Disclaimer: I have no first hand experience with the Cadence and I only heard the BS22s in the middle of Bestbuy, but they seemed comparable to the FS52s when I heard them in the same place. I initially went with the FS52's because the bass went deeper and they're their own stands, but I learned their bass isn't as important if you have a sub and I found my coffee table would sometimes block the lower drivers. No such obstruction issues with bookshelf speakers on stands or wall mounts though.

EDIT: maybe I'm thinking about this the wrong way, sub wise. I don't know what happens with a sub in an apartment situation so before you get a serious one maybe check around with those who do. To minimize neighbor-hearable subwoofer output but still have good sound, the SW8-MK2 might be a good option. The S30s can legitimately get by without a sub if you turn the LPF for LFE way down (check near the end of my aforementioned thread). I didn't test the HB1-MK2 without a sub but they might work fine too. The FS52s sounded too thin w/o a sub though, iirc.
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post #11 of 37 Old 03-01-2013, 07:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Well I just realized I have a space issue.

Currently I have my girlfriend's antique piano bench thing next to my TV (we don't even have a piano). I just figured I would be able to move it and find some place for it. I cannot! There is no place for this thing, other than where it is.

So basically that means floor standing speakers are out. I am going to have to mount the fronts on the wall (the center can be on my TV stand though).

I guess that means the SP-FS52, or any other floor standing option, are now out.

Out of necessity I will be going with the s30s (though from everything I have read on this site and in reviews I could not go wrong with either of them)

This site still has the s30s in stock: http://www.rakuten.com/prod/cambridge-audio-s30-bookshelf-speakers-in-black-pair/222561751.html?listingId=245677611
And I will just grab 4 of these to mount them: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000X9O8SI/ref=dra_a_cs_mr_hn_it_P1400_1000?t=slickdeals&ascsubtag=Ji1GLoI2EeKrT9Ja3lBe5A0_IstS3_0_0_0&tag=slickdeals

I still need to decide if I want another s30 or a s50 as the center, and which sub to go with though. In another thread a lot of people are saying that the s30 is a better center than the s50 (which seems a little weird to me).



EDIT:


Oh and FWIW, I can go up to $1000 for the 5.1 (not including the Denon 1913). I was just hoping to stay closer to $600. But it is looking like the sweet spot is going to be between those values (which is fine smile.gif )
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post #12 of 37 Old 03-01-2013, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goride View Post

I still need to decide if I want another s30 or a s50 as the center, and which sub to go with though. In another thread a lot of people are saying that the s30 is a better center than the s50 (which seems a little weird to me).

The best timbre match for the front soundstage is three of the exact same speaker. Center channels that manufacturers make are design compromises over having exactly the same because most people need a horizontal speaker for their center.

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post #13 of 37 Old 03-01-2013, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

The best timbre match for the front soundstage is three of the exact same speaker. Center channels that manufacturers make are design compromises over having exactly the same because most people need a horizontal speaker for their center.

+1 I just did a bunch of center channel research and between this^ and potential phase cancellation issues with 'toppled' M-T-M designs, ya might as well go with an exact match center if you can fit it. However, IIRC, the potential M-T-M phase issues seem to diminish if you're 12+ feet away. All that said, I haven't heard anything but good feedback on the S50. Also I've heard that the closer you can match the height of the center channel tweeter with L and R tweeters, the more cohesive the sound stage can be. Fwiw, my setup with three S30s in front sounds great but I have no other center channel experience to compare against.
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post #14 of 37 Old 03-01-2013, 09:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Ahh ok, I did not realize that. Like I said, I am still new to a lot of this.

I had just always assumed that the center was designed a bit different because it was responsible for a handling a different output.


I have a stand similar to this: http://www.staples.com/Z-Line-Vitoria-Flat-Panel-TV-Stand-with-Integrated-Mount/product_726974?cid=PS:GooglePLAs:726974&KPID=726974

I can raise and lower the TV, so I could probably fit the s30 underneath it. However, if I raise it too high, it may become uncomfortable to watch TV.

9" is a little high. It is only 6" if I put it on its side. Would it sound ok on its side?
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post #15 of 37 Old 03-01-2013, 09:19 AM
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My center S30 is atop the TV so it's not in line with the L & R; I angle it down a little to compensate. If I had a flexible stand like that I'd try out the different arrangements.
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post #16 of 37 Old 03-01-2013, 09:33 AM
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Audioadvisor.com also sells the S30 and S50 in two different finishes.

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post #17 of 37 Old 03-02-2013, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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I just ordered 3 pair of the s30s from Audioadvisor.com. smile.gif


I still need to decide what to get for the sub though. I am looking more for a clean and articulate sound, rather than booming bowel shaking earthquakes.

The two front runners are the Cadence CSX12 MkII and the Hsu STF-2 (the Klipsch RW-12D is in the running as well, but after doing some reading I do not think it is the right one for me, as it sounds like it is more for big booms).


I am also finding that I am trying to talk myself into the $500-600 range. I think I will avoid that for now, but as I keep reading I want to more and more lol.
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post #18 of 37 Old 03-02-2013, 08:44 AM
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For a sub in the $500-600 range I would look into the SVS PB1000 the SB1000 (each are $499 shipped), and the Rythmik LV12R ($549 shipped on a promo).

The Hsu would be in there too. How large is your room?
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post #19 of 37 Old 03-02-2013, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goride View Post

I still need to decide what to get for the sub though. I am looking more for a clean and articulate sound, rather than booming bowel shaking earthquakes. . . .

I am also finding that I am trying to talk myself into the $500-600 range. I think I will avoid that for now, but as I keep reading I want to more and more lol.

It will make a difference. Remember that you are buying speaker and amplifier when buying a sub. The Rythmik LV12R, on special for $549 shipped, would be better than the other subs you are considering in every way. It's an updated version of the FV12 which was very popular because of how good it is. But make sure you have room for it. It is big smile.gif

Otherwise, around that price, my choice would be the SVS PB-1000. A little smaller, so a little less max output, but would sound very good.

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post #20 of 37 Old 03-02-2013, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

It will make a difference. Remember that you are buying speaker and amplifier when buying a sub. The Rythmik LV12R, on special for $549 shipped, would be better than the other subs you are considering in every way. It's an updated version of the FV12 which was very popular because of how good it is. But make sure you have room for it. It is big smile.gif

Otherwise, around that price, my choice would be the SVS PB-1000. A little smaller, so a little less max output, but would sound very good.
The lv12r has an impressive looking back panel but the picture is blurry and I cant tell what any of the switches do. Why is there no picture of the front? Or am I missing it?

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post #21 of 37 Old 03-02-2013, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
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The lv12r has an impressive looking back panel but the picture is blurry and I cant tell what any of the switches do. Why is there no picture of the front? Or am I missing it?

My guess is that because Rythmik is a small ID vendor, they are slow to get commercial photos of their new sub and get them loaded on their website.

Here are some pictures: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1214550/official-rythmik-audio-subwoofer-thread/8280#post_22944577

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post #22 of 37 Old 03-02-2013, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

My guess is that because Rythmik is a small ID vendor, they are slow to get commercial photos of their new sub and get them loaded on their website.

Here are some pictures: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1214550/official-rythmik-audio-subwoofer-thread/8280#post_22944577
Thank you.

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post #23 of 37 Old 03-02-2013, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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I think I have been upsold to the Rythmik LV12R. $550 is definitely more than I wanted to spend. However, considering it is an introductory sale price and it includes free shipping, I feel that I will be getting a lot of sub for the money. The LB12R is described as articulate and refined but still powerful - which sounds exactly like I want (as opposed to a raw and rowdy rattler).

My living room is smaller. I forget the exact measurements but it is something like 14" x 11" (and filled with a lot of cloth furniture). I do have a place I can fit the sub so I am not worried on size.
I live in a 3 story house seperated into 3 apartments, one on each floor. I live right in the middle one, so I have upstairs and downstairs neighbors. I mention this because I will not be able to turn up the volume/base too loud at night (which is my favorite time to watch movies and listen to music =/ ). Will the Rythmik still perform well when I am unable to crank it up?


Do you think it will mesh well with these s30s at the often recommended 80hz crossover (the Rythmik site has a lot of information but I am still learning and a lot of that is still over my head)? This quote from the spec page makes me believe so:
Quote:
Integration

This subwoofer is designed to use with the bass management in an AV receiver. With many subwoofers, it is difficult to get a correct and seamless integration with the main speakers because the amplifier settings are often very different to the measured response. You may set the crossover point to 80 Hz, but the actual crossover point may be anywhere between 60 and 100 Hz! The crossover control knob on our plate amplifier can serve as a fine tuning tool to reduce the overlap in output between the main speakers and the subwoofer.


I think the Cadence CSX12 and the Hsu STF-2 are more realistic fits considering my room size. However, if the Rythmik will offer a more articulate and pleasant sound, when matched with these s30s, I will bust my budget and go for it. Plus, I do not intend to stay in this small of a living room forever, so the LV12R can grow with me a bit better.
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post #24 of 37 Old 03-02-2013, 11:18 AM
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Goride
Sounds like a well thought out purchase. You will have no problems with the sub. It is wise to get a little more sub than you need now than a little less. You can always turn it down.

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post #25 of 37 Old 03-02-2013, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
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I am also finding that I am trying to talk myself into the $500-600 range. I think I will avoid that for now, but as I keep reading I want to more and more lol.

I know what ya mean smile.gif For $550 that Rhythmik is pretty appealing, however I would just wonder if you're getting something that's going to be turned all the way down all the time. Watching movies in my 11.5 x 12ish space with a turret wall on one end and openings to other rooms on all sides, the VTF-2 MK4 would smash your face with the gain set at 9 o'clock and the SB12-NSD does same thing at 10 o'clock. Pictures and objects on shelves rattling, infrasonics buzzing in the floor, someone dropping bowling balls from the ceiling. I'm picturing a steady shower of white dust for the floor below. For both of those subs, the lowest gain setting is like 7 o'clock. The Rhythmic looks like it outguns either of those. A Subdude-like isolation platform helps, but unless you have serious insulation above and below I'd grab something small but responsive like an SW8-MK2 from Best Buy and see how it goes for 30 days. Between that and the S30s you should get great music and decent movie impact while being neighborly, especially if you put the sub near the couch. On the other hand, you know your neighbors better than I do.
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post #26 of 37 Old 03-02-2013, 11:41 AM
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I just posted this for someone else...no sense in redoing it smile.gif

$600 is a tight budget. Probably best you can do on that budget is Pioneer Andrew Jones series. Few other options and even more if you go to the micro satelites however you probably lower SQ with the micro.

Going with a 5.1...trying to keep your budget I would go:

Denon 1713 -- http://www.accessories4less.com/index.php?page=item&id=DENAVR1713&gclid=CK_d9bvh3rUCFQSg4Aod0mQAaw (Best room correction for the price) - $320.00

Pioneer SP-FS52-LR Andrew Jones Designed Floor standing Loudspeaker (each) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008NCD2S4/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
Pioneer SP-BS22-LR Andrew Jones Designed Bookshelf Loudspeakers http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008NCD2LG/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
Pioneer SP-C22 Andrew Jones Designed Center Channel Speaker http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008NCD2EI/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Total: ~$300 (Note: Just pasted Amazon for speed...newegg etc may be better price (watch out for Newegg return policy those...it sucks)

Klipsch RW12D 12-inch Reference Subwoofer http://www.amazon.com/Klipsch-RW12D-12-inch-Reference-Subwoofer/dp/B000UVWIO0 (This WILL go on sale for $299...about every Month or every other Month)

Total: ~$950 dollars. For that...you have a darn nice system. Other ways to go but I don't think anyone would disagree for this price range this is one of your best options.
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post #27 of 37 Old 03-02-2013, 11:48 AM
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I just posted this for someone else...no sense in redoing it smile.gif

$600 is a tight budget. Probably best you can do on that budget is Pioneer Andrew Jones series....
Denon 1713 -- http://www.accessories4less.com/index.php?page=item&id=DENAVR1713&gclid=CK_d9bvh3rUCFQSg4Aod0mQAaw (Best room correction for the price) - $320.00

Pioneer SP-FS52-LR Andrew Jones Designed Floor standing Loudspeaker (each) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008NCD2S4/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

On paper that sounds good but, based on my experience with that setup, I would not recommend the AVR 1713 with FS52s.
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post #28 of 37 Old 03-02-2013, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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About the neighbors:


This might work out a bit better for me than I was previously thinking.

My downstairs neighbor does something with the Air Force and she often leaves for 1-2 weeks at a time. Overall she is only there about 50% of the time. In fact, she is gone right now and has been for a week.

My upstairs neighbors just moved out, so no one is living there. One of my friends is considering moving in up there (its a nice place for the price).

So right now my GF and I have the entire place to ourselves and could let her rip a bit.

And if my friend does end up moving in, he would likely be more forgiving than a random new neighbor.





Or, I might just be trying to convince myself to get something I do not really need tongue.gif
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post #29 of 37 Old 03-02-2013, 12:00 PM
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The Klipsch RW12-d would be plenty of sub for you. It is not quite as accurate and articulate as the Rhythmik but it costs almost half as much. $550 vs $300.

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post #30 of 37 Old 03-02-2013, 12:10 PM
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If your friend moves in upstairs, all you have to do is invite him over for movie night some times. You'll be all set smile.gif

If you can afford it, get the Rythmik. It'll have better SQ than the Klipsch, it has a better build quality, and you will get better service from Rythmik. When you get it set up properly with your system and watch some of these four to five star movies, you won't regret it: The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts. Many of us think our good subs are the best investment we made in our home audio setup.

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