3 x ascend sierras 1 OR 3 x Arx A1b ???? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 1Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 02:43 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cschang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA
Posts: 14,738
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

Give it time and the Arx may prove to be just as long lived as the Ascends stuff. The reason why the Arx is getting so much attention is that they sound great, owners are happy with them. Top notch components seen in much more expensive speakers, high quality woofers that I would put up against woofers costing many times more. Its not the typical cheap xovers and outdated woofers from 20 years ago. I think thats why they are getting alot of attention.

Arx has been compared to the Dana line and the Arx towers to the Swan towers. I've never heard any of the Swan models and the expensive "custom" Swan line doesn't get much attention anywhere really. Mostly due to the price which is even higher than the Sierra 1.
Chad...

I didn't say they don't sound great. Are you saying they sound great to all? What I said is listen to what he can since he seems to have a great budget.

Who compared them...can you point me to the comparison? How would you compare them?

Can you point me to an respected publication with a review of the Arx's that confirm they are high quality drivers via measurements or inspection? Is there a picture of the crossover you can point me to as well? You know how old XBL^2 technology is, right?

-curtis

Owner of Wave Crest Audio
Volunteer Mod at the Ascend Acoustics Forum
Like all things on the Internet, do your research, as forums have a good amount of misinformation.
Help beat breast cancer!

cschang is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 02:46 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cschang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA
Posts: 14,738
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by ousooner2 View Post

Price of components isn't everything though
No, it's not...but it can be good indicator.

My issue...and it may just be my issue, but I haven't seen any indicator one way or the other.

-curtis

Owner of Wave Crest Audio
Volunteer Mod at the Ascend Acoustics Forum
Like all things on the Internet, do your research, as forums have a good amount of misinformation.
Help beat breast cancer!

cschang is offline  
post #33 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 02:50 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cschang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA
Posts: 14,738
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 70
OK...with that all said...

Is there anyone in the Los Angeles area with a pair of Arx's? I need to hear a pair.

-curtis

Owner of Wave Crest Audio
Volunteer Mod at the Ascend Acoustics Forum
Like all things on the Internet, do your research, as forums have a good amount of misinformation.
Help beat breast cancer!

cschang is offline  
post #34 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 03:45 PM
Senior Member
 
BufordTJustice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 434
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

Give it time and the Arx may prove to be just as long lived as the Ascends stuff. The reason why the Arx is getting so much attention is that they sound great, owners are happy with them. Top notch components seen in much more expensive speakers, high quality woofers that I would put up against woofers costing many times more. Its not the typical cheap xovers and outdated woofers from 20 years ago. I think thats why they are getting alot of attention.

Arx has been compared to the Dana line and the Arx towers to the Swan towers. I've never heard any of the Swan models and the expensive "custom" Swan line doesn't get much attention anywhere really. Mostly due to the price which is even higher than the Sierra 1.
Chad...

I didn't say they don't sound great. Are you saying they sound great to all? What I said is listen to what he can since he seems to have a great budget.

Who compared them...can you point me to the comparison? How would you compare them?

Can you point me to an respected publication with a review of the Arx's that confirm they are high quality drivers via measurements or inspection? Is there a picture of the crossover you can point me to as well? You know how old XBL^2 technology is, right?


Curtis, I don't think you want to go down this road.

The Audax woofer in the CBM isn't exactly a spring chicken...neither is the Tang Band in the Sierra-1. I don't think "newness" is a good metric for somebody to determine what speaker is best for them.

The only way for the OP to know is to compare in his own room.


Info on Arx:

http://www.theaudioinsider.com/forum/showthread.php?1757-About-Arx-Technology

Arcam AVR300, Panny BDT-500, Toshiba SD-9200 CD transport, Vizio XVT 55" LED/LCD (full direct-backlit w/ local dimming), Arx A5 & A3rx-c Mains, Arx A2rx-c center, HSU VTF-15h, BJC ten white w/ ultrasonically welded connectors.
BufordTJustice is offline  
post #35 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 03:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Jon Lane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,177
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Here's hoping I don't regret this, but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

In fact, while the Sierra-1 is newer, it also is not "new". Higher end Swans (d2.1), also sold by TAI have been compared to it on the forums, and in some publications. It is interesting that the Arx's don't get compared to the Swans on the boards...not even any speculation on TAI's own forum...it is odd.

How is that odd, Curtis?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

[Y]ou owe to yourself to get out and to listen to everything you can. Just because speakers get high praise(any brand or model) on these forums do not mean they are the speaker for you. [...] BTW...these forums are NOT unbiased.

The irony aside, this is all quite true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

I didn't say they don't sound great. Are you saying they sound great to all? What I said is listen to what he can since he seems to have a great budget.

Who compared them...can you point me to the comparison? How would you compare them?

Can you point me to an respected publication with a review of the Arx's that confirm they are high quality drivers via measurements or inspection? Is there a picture of the crossover you can point me to as well? You know how old XBL^2 technology is, right?

Irony aside once again, can you point me to a "reputable source" that - sheer listening experience aside, which is really all that counts - discredits this collection of proven technologies and competent design? Say, XBL2 or the planar technology that typically appears in $75 dollar aftermarket tweeters? I know my 33 years doing this cannot, which is why we selected those elements.

Conversely, can you yourself discredit anything in the product you're publicly doubting? Have you been under the hood, and if you have, do you know how to correlate any one component or its use or its numeric value precisely to nine octaves of sound?

If not, I propose that all this casts doubt while bench-racing, probably a method of biasing proceedings, Curtis. Personally I don't care how that thrust turns out, but personally I am interested in the actual sound of things, should that matter. That and user value.

I have to wonder how much of this is centered on that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

[Component quality] can be good indicator [of sound].

My issue...and it may just be my issue, but I haven't seen any indicator one way or the other.

Nor have you heard one, as you go on to say, but have you developed an opinion?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

OK...with that all said...

Is there anyone in the Los Angeles area with a pair of Arx's? I need to hear a pair.

I'd send you a pair but bearing in mind just how such things can go I'd need some assurances, as you can probably anticipate based on the past. On the other hand - and as a hypothetical to highlight your bias - how about a comparison between the A1b and your personal favorite, regardless of price, with the venue to be a consensus of interested and professionally uninvolved parties?

In other words there are a few ways to parry your own biases, Curtis, and there are a number of ways to prefer elements of the very broad mix of performance features of sample A to sample B and vice versa, none of which validate common bias and doubt-casting. Things mostly sound different at this level and to hunt around for individual variables to conjecture about serves little purpose.

Just listen. TAI has plenty of customers who've done just that and have selected TAI products against what I suspect some would prefer to think is convention. It's not a competition. It's preference.

As we can also see in many of these threads, there's not really a way to avoid preconceptions. Given that the OP seems to just want to navigate the market, maybe he would question how valuable any of this is is to him...

Jon Lane
Chane Music & Cinema
Jon Lane is offline  
post #36 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 03:53 PM
Senior Member
 
BufordTJustice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 434
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 33
I'll add that Jim Wilson's experience that the Arx A1b's tend to have value that belies their price (as mirrored by many users on TAI forums and here) is reason enough to compare them to whatever speaker the OP sees fit. If he wants to look at the Sierra-1 vs the Arx A1b...then let him.

Jim's review:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/speaker-subwoofer-reviews/65546-arx-a1b-a2b-speaker-review.html#post590376

Arcam AVR300, Panny BDT-500, Toshiba SD-9200 CD transport, Vizio XVT 55" LED/LCD (full direct-backlit w/ local dimming), Arx A5 & A3rx-c Mains, Arx A2rx-c center, HSU VTF-15h, BJC ten white w/ ultrasonically welded connectors.
BufordTJustice is offline  
post #37 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 03:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Jon Lane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,177
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

I don't think "newness" is a good metric for somebody to determine what speaker is best for them.

My personal favorite loudspeaker technologies are seventy years old by now. Their principles inform a lot of TAI's preferences today. There, I said it. wink.gif

Jon Lane
Chane Music & Cinema
Jon Lane is offline  
post #38 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 04:02 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cschang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA
Posts: 14,738
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post

Here's hoping I don't regret this, but...
How is that odd, Curtis?
The irony aside, this is all quite true.
Irony aside once again, can you point me to a "reputable source" that - sheer listening experience aside, which is really all that counts - discredits this collection of proven technologies and competent design? Say, XBL2 or the planar technology that typically appears in $75 dollar aftermarket tweeters? I know my 33 years doing this cannot, which is why we selected those elements.

Conversely, can you yourself discredit anything in the product you're publicly doubting? Have you been under the hood, and if you have, do you know how to correlate any one component or its use or its numeric value precisely to nine octaves of sound?

If not, I propose that all this casts doubt while bench-racing, probably a method of biasing proceedings, Curtis. Personally I don't care how that thrust turns out, but personally I am interested in the actual sound of things, should that matter. That and user value.

I have to wonder how much of this is centered on that.
Nor have you heard one, as you go on to say, but have you developed an opinion?
I'd send you a pair but bearing in mind just how such things can go I'd need some assurances, as you can probably anticipate based on the past. On the other hand - and as a hypothetical to highlight your bias - how about a comparison between the A1b and your personal favorite, regardless of price, with the venue to be a consensus of interested and professionally uninvolved parties?

In other words there are a few ways to parry your own biases, Curtis, and there are a number of ways to prefer elements of the very broad mix of performance features of sample A to sample B and vice versa, none of which validate common bias and doubt-casting. Things mostly sound different at this level and to hunt around for individual variables to conjecture about serves little purpose.

Just listen. TAI has plenty of customers who've done just that and have selected TAI products against what I suspect some would prefer to think is convention. It's not a competition. It's preference.

As we can also see in many of these threads, there's not really a way to avoid preconceptions. Given that the OP seems to just want to navigate the market, maybe he would question how valuable any of this is is to him...
Jon...just quickly as I have to get to some work...but I will leave this window open.

Regarding what I have bolded...where did I give any opinion on how they sounded or their quality?

-curtis

Owner of Wave Crest Audio
Volunteer Mod at the Ascend Acoustics Forum
Like all things on the Internet, do your research, as forums have a good amount of misinformation.
Help beat breast cancer!

cschang is offline  
post #39 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 04:11 PM
Senior Member
 
BufordTJustice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 434
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Jon...just quickly as I have to get to some work...but I will leave this window open.

Regarding what I have bolded...where did I give any opinion on how they sounded or their quality?

In post # 31:

"Can you point me to an respected publication with a review of the Arx's that confirm they are high quality drivers via measurements or inspection? Is there a picture of the crossover you can point me to as well? You know how old XBL^2 technology is, right?"

Jon refers to the implication is that if it is not confirmed by a "respected publication with a review" that the drivers are "high quality", then they must not be. When, in fact, you do not know either way.

Arcam AVR300, Panny BDT-500, Toshiba SD-9200 CD transport, Vizio XVT 55" LED/LCD (full direct-backlit w/ local dimming), Arx A5 & A3rx-c Mains, Arx A2rx-c center, HSU VTF-15h, BJC ten white w/ ultrasonically welded connectors.
BufordTJustice is offline  
post #40 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 04:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
gtpsuper24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,080
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Chad...

I didn't say they don't sound great. Are you saying they sound great to all? What I said is listen to what he can since he seems to have a great budget.

Who compared them...can you point me to the comparison? How would you compare them?

Can you point me to an respected publication with a review of the Arx's that confirm they are high quality drivers via measurements or inspection? Is there a picture of the crossover you can point me to as well? You know how old XBL^2 technology is, right?

I know you didn't say they don't sound great, since you've never heard them. What I didn't like is how you insinuated that because Ascend has been around longer and has been "proven" that they are better than the Arxs. And that the only reason they are getting attention is because they just a new forum darling only. The real reason isn't because they are just a fade or forum darling, its because they use great quality components seen at much higher priced speakers, and are great sounding speakers.
gtpsuper24 is offline  
post #41 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 04:22 PM
Senior Member
 
BufordTJustice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 434
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 33
I think we've sidetracked enough.

cub4bearin, the only way for you to know what YOU like is to do an in-home audition with both speakers at the same time. If you can afford the cash to audition even a stereo pair of each (saving shipping costs for each on the 3rd, center speaker), then I'm confident you'll be able to determine what you like best. None of us can tell you what you like.

EDIT: You've selected some really good speakers to choose between. It's not like you're trying to decide between B*SE and a real speaker model....I don't think you can lose here.

Arcam AVR300, Panny BDT-500, Toshiba SD-9200 CD transport, Vizio XVT 55" LED/LCD (full direct-backlit w/ local dimming), Arx A5 & A3rx-c Mains, Arx A2rx-c center, HSU VTF-15h, BJC ten white w/ ultrasonically welded connectors.
BufordTJustice is offline  
post #42 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 04:38 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cschang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA
Posts: 14,738
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 70
OK....I'll hold off to what I have to do later. rolleyes.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post

Here's hoping I don't regret this, but...
How is that odd, Curtis?
You don't want to reference them to your own products in terms of sound/quality?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post

Irony aside once again, can you point me to a "reputable source" that - sheer listening experience aside, which is really all that counts - discredits this collection of proven technologies and competent design? Say, XBL2 or the planar technology that typically appears in $75 dollar aftermarket tweeters? I know my 33 years doing this cannot, which is why we selected those elements.

Conversely, can you yourself discredit anything in the product you're publicly doubting? Have you been under the hood, and if you have, do you know how to correlate any one component or its use or its numeric value precisely to nine octaves of sound?

If not, I propose that all this casts doubt while bench-racing, probably a method of biasing proceedings, Curtis. Personally I don't care how that thrust turns out, but personally I am interested in the actual sound of things, should that matter. That and user value.

I have to wonder how much of this is centered on that.
Jon...you have a customer touting the quality of parts. Does he get that just from listening the speaker, which is subjective, or is there an objective way to show this?

The listening experience is subjective. Do you consider "quality" a subjective or objective trait? Do you consider engineering a "collection of proven technologies and competent design" a technical and objective achievement or subjective?

Here's what Chad posted:
"Top notch components seen in much more expensive speakers, high quality woofers that I would put up against woofers costing many times more."
My question is what makes that so? Nobody is bench racing here...or maybe someone is when they want taught quality of parts with no back up. Is that all an subjective observation of Chad's?

Jon, I realize you are only interested "in the actual sound of things"...that is of course the bottomline. I find it hard to believe that you do not believe there is actually no correlation between what you measure and what hear, especially when you engineer a product. Technology is advanced without measurement, and physics is not subjective art.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post

I'd send you a pair but bearing in mind just how such things can go I'd need some assurances, as you can probably anticipate based on the past. On the other hand - and as a hypothetical to highlight your bias - how about a comparison between the A1b and your personal favorite, regardless of price, with the venue to be a consensus of interested and professionally uninvolved parties?

In other words there are a few ways to parry your own biases, Curtis, and there are a number of ways to prefer elements of the very broad mix of performance features of sample A to sample B and vice versa, none of which validate common bias and doubt-casting. Things mostly sound different at this level and to hunt around for individual variables to conjecture about serves little purpose.

Just listen. TAI has plenty of customers who've done just that and have selected TAI products against what I suspect some would prefer to think is convention. It's not a competition. It's preference.

As we can also see in many of these threads, there's not really a way to avoid preconceptions. Given that the OP seems to just want to navigate the market, maybe he would question how valuable any of this is is to him...
I would rather have a listen to a pair that a user has in their own home...and bring my pair of speakers with me. No worries about break-in and what not. If that doesn't happen then we can discuss you sending me a pair. I'll compare them to anything you want me to compare them to. I am also certain that members of the LA A/V "club" will would be willing to listen as well....owner of all kinds of brands of speakers.

Yes...it is all preference...that was never an issue.

-curtis

Owner of Wave Crest Audio
Volunteer Mod at the Ascend Acoustics Forum
Like all things on the Internet, do your research, as forums have a good amount of misinformation.
Help beat breast cancer!

cschang is offline  
post #43 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 04:40 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cschang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA
Posts: 14,738
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

I know you didn't say they don't sound great, since you've never heard them. What I didn't like is how you insinuated that because Ascend has been around longer and has been "proven" that they are better than the Arxs. And that the only reason they are getting attention is because they just a new forum darling only. The real reason isn't because they are just a fade or forum darling, its because they use great quality components seen at much higher priced speakers, and are great sounding speakers.
Understandable....but I did not mean to insinuate that.

Again though, you "great and quality components seen at higher priced speakers". Can you say that these exact components are use in other speakers? Which speakers? Are you insinuating that the Arx are a better speaker because the "Top notch components seen in much more expensive speakers, high quality woofers that I would put up against woofers costing many times more" of which you have no means to back up, makes them a better speaker?

-curtis

Owner of Wave Crest Audio
Volunteer Mod at the Ascend Acoustics Forum
Like all things on the Internet, do your research, as forums have a good amount of misinformation.
Help beat breast cancer!

cschang is offline  
post #44 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 04:46 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cschang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA
Posts: 14,738
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

In post # 31:

"Can you point me to an respected publication with a review of the Arx's that confirm they are high quality drivers via measurements or inspection? Is there a picture of the crossover you can point me to as well? You know how old XBL^2 technology is, right?"

Jon refers to the implication is that if it is not confirmed by a "respected publication with a review" that the drivers are "high quality", then they must not be. When, in fact, you do not know either way.
If someone makes a claim...how do you confirm it is true? To you always take it to be true?

Of course I don't know, which is why I asked the question.

-curtis

Owner of Wave Crest Audio
Volunteer Mod at the Ascend Acoustics Forum
Like all things on the Internet, do your research, as forums have a good amount of misinformation.
Help beat breast cancer!

cschang is offline  
post #45 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 05:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ousooner2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 2,004
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 75

Panny 65st60 / Denon X1000 / EMP e55ti / EMP e56ci / EMP e5bi / (2) e1010i
ousooner2 is offline  
post #46 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 05:32 PM
AVS Special Member
 
gtpsuper24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,080
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

If someone makes a claim...how do you confirm it is true? To you always take it to be true?

Of course I don't know, which is why I asked the question.

I don't know but Hspecialist seems to know everything. Wonder how he came to the conclusion that the Ascend is a better choice. How did he come to the conclusion that they far surpass the Arx?

Hspecialist replied to this thread on March 2, 7:15 pm
Huge build difference between these two. The Sierra bamboo enclosures are dramatically better in rigidity and thickness. Totally in a different league. The sound quality and capability far surpasses the Arx. The choice if drivers and reference level crossover components present themselves just as they are...reference monitors. The SEAS drivers are dramatically refined and these enclosures are capable and for those demanding dynamic and deep high resolution audio. Sierra 1's are the better between your choice.


I think Arx uses some pretty good close to reference parts and I don't believe that the Sierras far surpass the Arxs either.
gtpsuper24 is offline  
post #47 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 05:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Jon Lane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,177
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

You don't want to reference them to your own products in terms of sound/quality?

I have my opinion and my customers have theirs. "Odd" doesn't really factor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Jon...you have a customer touting the quality of parts. Does he get that just from listening the speaker, which is subjective, or is there an objective way to show this?

That's not the right question, Curtis. Rather, do you have grounds to doubt him? Do you doubt me? And if you do, on what grounds and just as importantly, by what metric of value or character would you do so?

Of course you do not have grounds to doubt - but we've had you touting other things for hundreds of posts - and the seeds of doubt are cast anyway.

The correct question is a different question, which perhaps is: How is it that a firm can offer stuff like this at these prices? How can a concern put two excellent technologies together in one platform at a fraction of the customer price of other products that don't use either? Or any of a half a dozen other questions that would, honestly, probably hew closer to objective fact.

Do you see the difference in tone? I do. Others do. Which set of questions is the more valid, Curtis?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

The listening experience is subjective. Do you consider "quality" a subjective or objective trait?

Do you consider engineering a "collection of proven technologies and competent design" a technical and objective achievement or subjective?

You tell me: Given that you've said that listening pleasure is to some significant degree subjective, do you consider quality a subjective or objective trait?

You raised the questionable premise but if you want to demand I answer it, I will, like this. I consider both, not one or the other.

Personally, I consider quality what I said it was, which is a combination of effective technologies and design, together with hard objective market value per a good, well-rounded, competent product. I'll add that I also personally factor in a large measure of design philosophy, which I've written about here a number of times before.

None of it is either mysterious or complex, but the sum is an art. Is this debatable?

And you, Curtis, what sounds most like unamplified music in a natural space, to paraphrase TAS's old byline? A magazine review? A line on a screen? Conventional wisdom? Popular acclaim? Marketing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Here's what Chad posted:
Quote:
"Top notch components seen in much more expensive speakers, high quality woofers that I would put up against woofers costing many times more."

My question is what makes that so?

Economics?

Or if you prefer, materials, select components, cost to manufacture, design goals, complex parameters, distortion specs, other measured characteristics, and then customer experiences, other popular acclaim, and professional opinion. Or as I've also put it, all of this in a guerilla effort spread word of mouth as an alternative to the usual methods.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Nobody is bench racing here...or maybe someone is when they want taught quality of parts with no back up.

No back up? Curtis, are we lying?

Of course it's benchracing - at least it is now, thank you very much - and I think I resent this latest implication, if that's what it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Is that all an subjective observation of Chad's?

I'm not Chad but I suspect it's rather objective, actually, and I just answered you why that is. But again, maybe you're asking questions aimed at casting doubt rather than just assuming that others are being truthful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Jon, I realize you are only interested "in the actual sound of things"...that is of course the bottomline. I find it hard to believe that you do not believe there is actually no correlation between what you measure and what hear, especially when you engineer a product.

Did I say that, Curtis? And since I have not, why are you raising it as a point? It's not really a point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Technology is advanced without measurement, and physics is not subjective art.

Fine...
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

I would rather have a listen to a pair that a user has in their own home...and bring my pair of speakers with me. No worries about break-in and what not. If that doesn't happen then we can discuss you sending me a pair. I'll compare them to anything you want me to compare them to. I am also certain that members of the LA A/V "club" will would be willing to listen as well....owner of all kinds of brands of speakers.

We'll see. Given the slant (and the track record) you can understand my not leaping at the chance to basically open cans of worms. Likewise, consider the implications of sending your gear here for a party to arrange for a set of locals to audition against some of our stuff.

Meh. It's frenetic and it's not fun and it doesn't serve anybody's best interests that I can see. What's productive is the present course, making friends and customers, and gathering the opinions of music lovers. I can live with that. In fact, I can live with asking you to not consider our stuff, Curtis. You have what you like and I'm okay with that.

Do not buy this product. Now we're both happy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Yes...it is all preference...that was never an issue.

Except when it's a question of quality, technology, reputable reporting, measurement, or physics, of course. Then it's an issue. Or of personal integrity, now alluded to be impaired or worse.

Jon Lane
Chane Music & Cinema
Jon Lane is offline  
post #48 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 05:59 PM
Advanced Member
 
Newbie01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: North Wales, PA
Posts: 834
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Ok...I think we have established these are both great speakers. As others may have noted you are not exactly comparing apples to apples in that the Sierra-1 far out cost the Arx.

Listen if you can... If not ...go with the cheaper and see if it works for you. Maybe try the CMD 170 SE if that does not work then work your way up till your happy either in the Arx line or the Ascend line.

You can't go wrong with either brand...follow your ears and you will be happy.
cschang and cub4bearin like this.
Newbie01 is offline  
post #49 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 06:45 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cschang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA
Posts: 14,738
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

I don't know but Hspecialist seems to know everything. Wonder how he came to the conclusion that the Ascend is a better choice. How did he come to the conclusion that they far surpass the Arx?

Hspecialist replied to this thread on March 2, 7:15 pm
Huge build difference between these two. The Sierra bamboo enclosures are dramatically better in rigidity and thickness. Totally in a different league. The sound quality and capability far surpasses the Arx. The choice if drivers and reference level crossover components present themselves just as they are...reference monitors. The SEAS drivers are dramatically refined and these enclosures are capable and for those demanding dynamic and deep high resolution audio. Sierra 1's are the better between your choice.


I think Arx uses some pretty good close to reference parts and I don't believe that the Sierras far surpass the Arxs either.
First...I'm not Hspecialist...so don't ask me to defend what he posted.

Again, you post "I think Arx uses some pretty good close to reference parts and I don't believe that the Sierras far surpass the Arxs either." I'm not saying you are right or wrong...but how do you come to this conclusion?

-curtis

Owner of Wave Crest Audio
Volunteer Mod at the Ascend Acoustics Forum
Like all things on the Internet, do your research, as forums have a good amount of misinformation.
Help beat breast cancer!

cschang is offline  
post #50 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 06:57 PM
Advanced Member
 
csgamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 670
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Is there any plans to get some professional reviews done on Arx speakers? I didn't see any the last I looked. Of course listening in one's home is the best. However, I think sending a review sample to audioholics to get reviewed would attract more customers. Many customers such as myself are unwilling to risk losing on shipping costs if professional reviews are lacking. Having not heard ascend or arx speakers, I would likely take a chance on ascend first for this very reason.
Billy p likes this.
csgamer is offline  
post #51 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 07:03 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cschang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA
Posts: 14,738
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 70
I will take one excerpt of your post, since it is the basis for the discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post


That's not the right question, Curtis. Rather, do you have grounds to doubt him? Do you doubt me? And if you do, on what grounds and just as importantly, by what metric of value or character would you do so?

Of course you do not have grounds to doubt - but we've had you touting other things for hundreds of posts - and the seeds of doubt are cast anyway.

The correct question is a different question, which perhaps is: How is it that a firm can offer stuff like this at these prices? How can a concern put two excellent technologies together in one platform at a fraction of the customer price of other products that don't use either? Or any of a half a dozen other questions that would, honestly, probably hew closer to objective fact.
Hmm...the right question? So you are telling me that I am not asking the right question...correct? Or is it a question to which you can't answer?

Because I ask him for back-up, it means I doubt him? So if a salesman is trying to sell you a product, and says it contains the best technology at a fraction of the cost, do you believe him? First, I am not interested in costs...I am interested in results.

Technologies together in one platform....what are the claimed advantages? How do you confirm those advantages?

I tell you the water I put in front of you is cold...40 degrees. How do you verify?

Would you consider...let's say....the modern disc brake a technology? It is used in just about all cars, but performance of the cars all vary...even braking performance. Agreed? We can go on forever with this direction.

-curtis

Owner of Wave Crest Audio
Volunteer Mod at the Ascend Acoustics Forum
Like all things on the Internet, do your research, as forums have a good amount of misinformation.
Help beat breast cancer!

cschang is offline  
post #52 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 07:08 PM
Advanced Member
 
RicardoJoa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Posts: 616
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Most review ive read always says good thing.
If they find a cost cutting factor they will usually mention thats is normal at this price point. Few people review for free.
RicardoJoa is offline  
post #53 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 07:12 PM
Advanced Member
 
Ascend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: San Clemente, CA
Posts: 589
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 76
If I may interject here...

cub4bearin -- might I simply suggest ordering a set of the Arx and our CBM-170SE's. The reason for this is that the Sierra-1 and Arx are at very different price points and as many have mentioned, there are so many other speakers in between these price points that might also fit the bill, including our 340SE -- which I feel is one of the best bang for buck loudspeakers ever released.

You can then closely compare the Arx and 170's and from your likes/dislikes of our 170's, I would be happy to discuss with you if the Sierra-1 is the right speaker for you or not. Or, you might simply find the 170's to be everything you are looking for -- don't discount the 170's because they are not as hyped on this forum. This is a multi-award winning loudspeaker used in many research labs, college music rooms and studios due to its accuracy. They are also capable of playing extremely loud while maintaining composure. Or, you might find you prefer the Arx, which I suspect is going to be considerably less efficient but with gaining deeper bass. So much depends on what YOUR personal preferences are and if you are unsure of what you like in a loudspeaker -- take the first step and start listening, lots and lots of listening smile.gif

If you are concerned about return shipping charges, should you want to return the 170's and stick with Arx -- we would be happy to cover the return shipping costs for you (provided, of course, that you are in the continental US)

You need to take the first step for yourself -- you won't get the "answer" to your question as the only person who can answer that is you smile.gif

Feel free to contact me directly if I can be of any assistance.

David Fabrikant

audio professional and soft spoken representative of www.AscendAcoustics.com

Ascend is offline  
post #54 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 07:21 PM
Advanced Member
 
csgamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 670
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicardoJoa View Post

Most review ive read always says good thing.
If they find a cost cutting factor they will usually mention thats is normal at this price point. Few people review for free.

Not all reviews say good things, I see plenty of bad, good, and average. And people want speakers for different reasons, a mediocre review may still appeal to some. it could say poor bass extension, but the customer doesn't care about that, they want nice mids and highs. Basically, a review helps give a customer a little more peace of mind. I mean there are so many speaker companies to choose from, why chance shipping costs on a brand that doesn't have any reviews. I sure won't, but some others don't care. Although, I know I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Few people review for free? Well, that's business, then I guess you have to invest in some marketing costs by going this route then. Maybe another downside is fear of a biased unfavorable review because it is ultimately the reviewer's ears who is judging. Even with these downsides, I think it is a good route to have a review if you believe in your product and its value.
csgamer is offline  
post #55 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 07:23 PM
Advanced Member
 
Ascend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: San Clemente, CA
Posts: 589
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

I don't know but Hspecialist seems to know everything. Wonder how he came to the conclusion that the Ascend is a better choice. How did he come to the conclusion that they far surpass the Arx?


gtpsuper24,

Hspecialist can be overly passionate at times, he certainly does not "know" which is a better choice for the OP, only the OP can make that determination. I asked Hspecialist to immediately remove his post once I became aware of it as it was entirely unprofessional and not at all representative of my company's philosophy. My apologies to TAI and Jon Lane - believe me, he won't be making that mistake again wink.gif

David Fabrikant

audio professional and soft spoken representative of www.AscendAcoustics.com

Ascend is offline  
post #56 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 07:29 PM
Advanced Member
 
RicardoJoa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Posts: 616
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by csgamer View Post

Not all reviews say good things, I see plenty of bad, good, and average. And people want speakers for different reasons, a mediocre review may still appeal to some. it could say poor bass extension, but the customer doesn't care about that, they want nice mids and highs. Basically, a review helps give a customer a little more piece of mind. I mean there are so many speaker companies to choose from, why chance shipping costs on a brand that doesn't have any reviews. I sure won't, but some others don't care. Although, I know I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Few people review for free? Well, that's business, then I guess you have to invest in some marketing costs by going this route then. Maybe another downside is fear of a biased unfavorable review because it is ultimately the reviewer's ears who is judging. Even with these downsides, I think it is a good route to have a review if you believe in your product and its value.

No one wants to pay a reviewer to have rate as bad or average, at least not in a marketing point of view. Most audioholics review are positive. i have yet to read a negative review.
RicardoJoa is offline  
post #57 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 07:33 PM
Advanced Member
 
csgamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 670
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Hmm, I have to recheck all of audioholics reviews some time. I was referring to reviews elsewhere as well, not just at audioholics.
csgamer is offline  
post #58 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 07:44 PM
Advanced Member
 
RicardoJoa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Posts: 616
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by csgamer View Post

Hmm, I have to recheck all of audioholics reviews some time. I was referring to reviews elsewhere as well, not just at audioholics.

I honestly have not heard a review that says like, these speaker bass is awefull or the highs are so fatiguing, that sort of negativity. I guess, most writer will mellow their writing so they dont appear to be as negative as one might think.
RicardoJoa is offline  
post #59 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 07:49 PM
Advanced Member
 
csgamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 670
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicardoJoa View Post

No one wants to pay a reviewer to have rate as bad or average, at least not in a marketing point of view. Most audioholics review are positive. i have yet to read a negative review.

Well, that is a risk that a brand may have to take. Of course nobody wants to pay for a negative review. In fact, if a company has a bad product I would recommend to not have a review. However, not having any pro reviews decreases credibility and leaves a customer to having to trust other customers' opinions. Also, there are many existing speaker brands that seem to avoid reviews, who knows, they may be selling a lot and doing financially great, and that is there choice to make. But if there product is really good for the money, I think companies are missing out by not having more reviews out there. Just my opinion.
csgamer is offline  
post #60 of 109 Old 03-04-2013, 07:50 PM
Advanced Member
 
Newbie01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: North Wales, PA
Posts: 834
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Lol..yeah about as negative a review I saw (I just looked at a TON of professional reviews) was 4 out of 5 stars...that was as negative as it got.
Newbie01 is offline  
Reply Speakers

Tags
Pioneer , Ascend Acoustics , Hp Digital Projector Sb21 Dlp Projector 1000 Ansi Lumens Svga 800 X 600

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off