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post #31 of 54 Old 03-06-2013, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I didn't realize how much of this was going on, but not surprised.

I wonder, too, whether or not some design at the budget audio level is coming out of Chinese factories instead of from the companies themselves. Sort of "what can you make for us cheap queries," that result in a product that the company rebadges as their own with only minor changes. Sort of the way Emotiva Pro Airmotivs seem to be Chinese QMS audio speakers with only a minor update.
It works in the other direction too.

A company may contract the Chinese manufacturer to build something, and then the manufacturer turns around, tweaks something a bit, and sells it as something else. Not saying this is or isn't the case with Airmotivs.

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post #32 of 54 Old 03-06-2013, 09:56 AM
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The worst thing I can think of that has happened, is when the Chinese manufacturer decides to make a change in the design on there own. This happened to a small highly regarded driver designer/supplier. The drivers failed and ultimately put him out of business. It is not all rosy no matter which way you go. There are always pitfalls. This is where good customer service comes in. Something I always keep in mind when purchasing a high dollar item.

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post #33 of 54 Old 03-06-2013, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

It works in the other direction too.

A company may contract the Chinese manufacturer to build something, and then the manufacturer turns around, tweaks something a bit, and sells it as something else. Not saying this is or isn't the case with Airmotivs.

Protecting IP is a difficult job.

Apparently the QMS speakers were available a good bit before the Emotiva. But I know what you mean.

Another thing is when manufacturers switch to another overseas factory. A great example of this is Agile guitars. For a while, Gibson was making the Epiphone Les Pauls in Korea. When they switched to China, the factory in Korea kept making Les Pauls. Those are the low end models I linked to, but they have a wide variety of body construction, finishes, necks, etc. Get a better guitar for the money than buying an Epiphone Les Paul. No IP violation there, either, since the patent on the Les Paul has long expired.

We'll definitely see more of that since the Chinese have no compunction about violating IP rights.

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post #34 of 54 Old 03-06-2013, 10:48 AM
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Do ID speakers sound better than B&M speakers? Some do and some don't.

Do B&M speakers sound better than ID speakers? Some do and some don't.

You will see people who prefer ID & people who prefer B&M, regardless of the price range and manufacturer.

In the end, audition the speakers for yourself and take all opinions from EVERYONE with a grain of salt. Just because people rave about certain speakers (ID or BM) does not mean you will feel the same.
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post #35 of 54 Old 03-06-2013, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

It works in the other direction too.

A company may contract the Chinese manufacturer to build something, and then the manufacturer turns around, tweaks something a bit, and sells it as something else. Not saying this is or isn't the case with Airmotivs.

Protecting IP is a difficult job.

That reminds me of the original Oppo Blu-ray Player and what a certain manufacturer did with it (or didn't really do with it if you know the background). I think we all remember that one. smile.gif

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post #36 of 54 Old 03-06-2013, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ProfD View Post

What is it about Ascend, TAI, Philharmonic Audio, Aperion, etc, that makes their speakers better sounding than Polk, Klipsch, Bose, Martin Logan, etc? Do the internet direct brands have lower profit margins? Why doesn't the big money associated with mass market sales figures allow for higher R&D spending and thus better audio products? Seriously. I want to know.

I don't know the answer to your quesion but.... from what I understand, (in the beginning) Klipsch was a one man show with a couple assocates.  Today the One Man is gone (as I guess are many of those early associates) but the company is one of the namesakes.  Who's to say that "Joe Internet Brand" of today won't evolve/grow into tomorrow's giant?

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post #37 of 54 Old 03-06-2013, 03:07 PM
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post #38 of 54 Old 03-06-2013, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by coytee View Post

I don't know the answer to your quesion but.... from what I understand, (in the beginning) Klipsch was a one man show with a couple assocates.  Today the One Man is gone (as I guess are many of those early associates) but the company is one of the namesakes.  Who's to say that "Joe Internet Brand" of today won't evolve/grow into tomorrow's giant?


Well, I'm saying it won't be me.
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post #39 of 54 Old 03-06-2013, 04:32 PM
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Well, I'm saying it won't be me.

Just for that...ill pay your estate for use of your name. Soon it will be Klipsch or a dMiller Phil 932b in the forums!

Humm...they both are horn loaded... Seems that dMiller Phil's 932b's have a great finish but don't sound too good...

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For every unit of the dMiller Phil 932b's sold $.50 will be donated to the "One Hit Wonder of the Year -- Rap Music Fund".

On second thought...don't know if cracking jokes at Dennis when he still has my speakers in his hands is a good idea wink.gif
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post #40 of 54 Old 03-06-2013, 05:09 PM
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Edit: delete.

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post #41 of 54 Old 03-07-2013, 03:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Edit: delete.

Changed your mind?
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post #42 of 54 Old 03-07-2013, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by ProfD View Post

Changed your mind?

I received a number of messages of "why bother" proves nothing. In typical AVS fashion.

So we will leave it at that.

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post #43 of 54 Old 03-07-2013, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr.SoftDome View Post

I received a number of messages of "why bother" proves nothing. In typical AVS fashion.

So we will leave it at that.

MSF, for what it's worth, I'm in ID and I found your comments on the subject insightful. I'm sorry they weren't received as well as they could have been.

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post #44 of 54 Old 03-07-2013, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by coytee View Post

 from what I understand, (in the beginning) Klipsch was a one man show with a couple assocates. 
So was JBL. There's a notion amongst many who are not themselves engineers that only a large entity has the resources to do the R&D to create the best products. You won't find that sentiment repeated by engineers. It's not the size of your factory that matters, it's what's contained in that storage area between your ears. To those who suggest that small operations cannot compete against the likes of a large organizations you might want to consider the creators of the steam engine, telegraph, telephone, radio, hot air balloon, A/C electric generators and motors, aircraft, rockets, vaccinations, antibiotics, open heart surgery, Teflon, the discovery of DNA, and this neat ride:

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post #45 of 54 Old 03-07-2013, 06:24 AM
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I found this interesting and somewhat relevant. From the PE website

Personal Commentary on the State of DIY Speakerbuilding
Part 2 – My thoughts on the current state of the art of DIY speaker building.

While it’s true that Arnie Nudell began Infinity in his garage, this does not represent what DIY speaker building was really all about at that time. When I began my interest in this hobby it was 1979 and I was in college. At the time most speaker builders were like me – we went to Radio Shack and picked up drivers (8” woofer, 50Watts, 20Oz magnets – that’s it for specs), put them in a box with little understanding of tuning, and used first order crossovers, sometime only tweeters. I guess there are quite a few commercial speakers made the same way today, but I digress….

In the first couple of years my curiosity led me to discover AES journals in the library and I began to learn more about speaker design from the experts. Needless to say much of it was way over my head, but I was still able to learn about alignments and pick up some formulas and began to discover that some drivers came with T/S parameters that would tell me what box to put them in. What a leap in my understanding!

In the 80’s I built speakers using a calculator and notepad. My crossovers were beginning to use Zobels and things like that, and I was probably moving into the upper levels of the DIYer world at the time just by doing so. Commercial products however, were light years ahead. They were measuring frequency response and impedance and designing complex crossovers that most of us in the hobby didn’t even understand. There was a huge chasm between what they could do and the average DIYer hobbyist. The birth of Speaker Builder magazine in the 1980 helped a lot, but we were still far behind the pro’s.

As the 90’s rolled in this changed slowly with the creation of on-line bulletin boards and email lists, like the old Bass List. Madisound had a bulletin board you reach via modem. Then in the late 90’s the internet began to open the door and Madisound’s discussion forum became the haven for discussion. I discovered it in 1997 and quickly settled in. I have been Jeff B. ever since. This was where I connected with people like Paul V., John k, dlr, PEB, Rick Craig, Ron E, Andy G, and many others. It was working with Paul V and John K that I began to create my spreadsheets. These weren’t built in a vacuum, there was a huge exchange of knowledge taking place. I have hundreds of emails from discussions that went off-board as we worked together on tools for designing. Pretty much everything I learned of VBA I learned from Paul, and John taught me math that went well beyond my schooling, but I’ve always been able to pick things up and run with them.

Some well-known names would frequent the board. One of those was Siegfried Linkwitz. I still have a post of his that I copied off in the early 2000’s where he posted an encouragement to the community that we DIYers had the means to surpass what was commercially available because we were not forced to compromise in the way a commercial design needed to. I was inspired by what he wrote and decided to push even harder for more understanding. If Linkwitz thought we could do it, then I wanted to do it. It was during this time that I began to create Passive crossover Designer, as Paul and John, and others also began to create design tools that would all work together. The FRD Consortium was born. The Consortium was Paul’s idea and he hosted. FRD’s by the way were file format from LAUD by Bill Waslo, who just happens to be one of us.

Now, let’s leap frog to 2012. Attending gatherings like the InDIYana gathering in Fort Wayne or the MWAF in Dayton reveals the current state of the art in DIY speaker building, and it reveals that this state is quite high. In the early gatherings I attended there were a handful of impressively nice speakers, but there were also some speakers that, well, I wouldn’t be able to brag about much. But now, this is no longer the case. Sure, there are imperfect speakers, but it is rare now to get any multiway loudspeaker that doesn’t have reasonably flat response and isn’t based on a decent design philosophy. Then when you look at the craftsmanship…. Wow! It is amazing what these guys can do. The fact is, for a small investment, tools like OmniMic and DATS give the DIYer a very easy way to measure almost anything you would ever need to measure to design a good set of speakers. There are other tools available that help to design crossovers and predict speaker behavior like diffraction and polar response even before you build. When you couple this with uncompromising design and craftsmanship you quickly realize that we have reached that point where the DIYer (any DIYer who really wants to) can meet or exceed the performance of almost any commercial product available today.

Twenty years ago very few of us could make the measurements or use them like a speaker company could, but that is no longer the case, today we can do almost exactly the same things (believe it or not I have been contacted by several professional engineers asking for permission to use my design tools on their jobs). And because of this we have reached the point where Siegfried’s statement enters in – we can do this and not compromise anything if we don’t want to. For a one-off-speaker for ourselves we can choose drivers, crossover components, and cabinet construction that mass producers just can’t do unless they want to sell for Wilson Audio prices. Take Dan N’s Echelons, for example, what would a commercial version of that speaker be priced at? $20,000? More?

I came away from the MWAF convinced that we are there. We have, as a community, not just as a couple of individuals, reached the point where we can build at a level of performance comparable or exceeding that of the finest commercial offerings. You can quote me on that – I won’t take it back. I saw and heard too many excellent examples of what I am referring to as proof for my statement. This is the current state of the art of DIY speaker building, and it is state of the art.

I want to close by calling out a couple of designs that really impressed me in one way or another. First, this was the second time I listened to Dan’s Echelons – without a doubt one of the best sounding speakers I have ever heard in my life. It is certainly on the same plane or higher as the Salk Soundscapes or Archos, two speakers that I was involved with personally. 6th Planet’s open baffle design was beautiful, very creative, and sounded very nice. One of the highest scorers on my list was Tom Zarbo’s curved Cellos. I was disappointed that they didn’t win something because they were one of the best sounding and best looking speakers of the day in my opinion. This just shows how high the bar has been raised. Dave Pellegrene’s Dragsters show what kind of creativity exists in the group. And Wolf's designs are always impeccably voiced.

There were many more designs that were excellent, but it’s impossible to comment on all of them. I can only say that I am impressed, and I am humbled by the level of skill I see demonstrated which is some ways is well beyond my own. I am thus honored to be included in this group of hobbyists.

Jeff B
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A bunch of the so called "big" speakers and other audio companies were independent one man shows in the beginning very small companies and the only reason any of them are around anymore is because a bigger corporation or a partnership with money who thought this business can still make money bought them and other audio companies if not most would of them would be out of business by now.
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post #47 of 54 Old 03-07-2013, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfD View Post

What is it about Ascend, TAI, Philharmonic Audio, Aperion, etc, that makes their speakers better sounding than Polk, Klipsch, Bose, Martin Logan, etc? Do the internet direct brands have lower profit margins? Why doesn't the big money associated with mass market sales figures allow for higher R&D spending and thus better audio products? Seriously. I want to know.

Have you heard each of these brands yourself and you came to the conclusion that the former group is better than the latter? Personally I like my Ascends very much. I've also heard some Martin Logans I liked very much as well as some older large Klipsch speakers (and some newer Klipsch bookshelfs that I'm not so fond of). I'd love to hear more, there's only so much time and opportunity. I've mostly bought in audio stores for most of my purchases over the years, but lately have tried some of the ID offerings and think they're very well made and priced and sound great, as did some of my B&M purchases. I'd love to make some speakers of my own some day too. I tend to support smaller businesses than larger when I can, too as mostly I come from a small business background. There's a lot of great choices....

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post #48 of 54 Old 03-07-2013, 10:34 PM
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I tend to support smaller businesses than larger when I can, too as mostly I come from a small business background. There's a lot of great choices....

That's a good point, too. In an age where many of the audio companies have been bought up into mega corps with multiple speaker lines that used to be separate companies, I fear what happens if the smaller businesses aren't supported because of what they contribute to the diversity of offerings. Whereas the bigger companies are often more interested in out marketing each other, rather than out designing.
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post #49 of 54 Old 03-08-2013, 04:14 AM
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Apparently the QMS speakers were available a good bit before the Emotiva. But I know what you mean.
So are the QMS speakers as good as the Emotivas?! confused.giftongue.gif
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post #50 of 54 Old 03-08-2013, 07:56 AM - Thread Starter
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I received a number of messages of "why bother" proves nothing. In typical AVS fashion.

So we will leave it at that.

For whatever it is worth. I was personally interested in hearing your impressions. But I understand your decision.
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post #51 of 54 Old 03-08-2013, 11:01 AM
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So are the QMS speakers as good as the Emotivas?! confused.giftongue.gif

Well, probably the only tweaking done was the logo, The chinese have making speakers and audio equipment for a very long, thanks to the companies offshoring their manufactures venue.
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post #52 of 54 Old 03-08-2013, 11:07 AM
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Well, probably the only tweaking done was the logo, The chinese have making speakers and audio equipment for a very long, thanks to the companies offshoring their manufactures venue.

I don't think the QMS speakers have balanced inputs like the Airmotivs. But that's a minor feature upgrade.

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post #53 of 54 Old 03-08-2013, 11:24 AM
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I don't think the QMS speakers have balanced inputs like the Airmotivs. But that's a minor feature upgrade.
Yea the power inlet is different too and a few more things on the bass and treble label, but i think the overall design is the same. My point is that the chinese can make some good stuff. I have heard cave from china, a tube system and i was really impressed with the sound that put out from the bookshelves that were smaller then my sierra 1. Of course i might have been tricked.
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post #54 of 54 Old 03-08-2013, 01:04 PM
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Yea the power inlet is different too and a few more things on the bass and treble label, but i think the overall design is the same. My point is that the chinese can make some good stuff. I have heard cave from china, a tube system and i was really impressed with the sound that put out from the bookshelves that were smaller then my sierra 1. Of course i might have been tricked.

I know. Look at the IEM market where Chinese companies are producing some of the best from $25 up to $200. I think all this complaint about cheap Chinese manufacturing here in the US is overlooking the fact that there are going to be Chinese entrepreneurs asking why they don't just design and sell their own brands to the rest of the world.

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