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post #31 of 46 Old 03-10-2013, 02:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by smasher50 View Post

fwiw' again the speakers you recommended and the ones recommended by the avs salesperson "imo" are a little over budget for what the op's requires for his needs. to spend $10,000 or more for ceiling speakers in a 7.1 system for t.v listining and background music sounds a little bit much . just my 2 cents unless you can sweet talk him into really needing them like the guy who sold my sister hers.

Who are you or I to set someone's budget for them? He didn't give a budget. He asked an open ended question. I not only listed the upper end (around $1,000 a speaker) but also some brands that offer $400 options. I don't know where this $10,000 figure is coming into play. The BG & Klipsch systems I listed would be $5,000 to $6,000 on the high end. Reasonable if someone works hard, does well for themselves, cares about the quality of their sound and want the best that their environment allows. While the upper end of audio might not be for you, does that mean it isn't right for anyone?
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post #32 of 46 Old 03-10-2013, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by PlexMulti View Post

Performance would all depend on the situation and a lot of variables there within. Without knowing the OPs room and given only the singular qualification of they have to be in-ceiling, I have to go off of the idea that in-wall or in-room is not possible or desired.

My posts were not to assert performance was better one way or the other, but to illustrate that there are a lot of good options out there and even some great ones rather than agree with the other guys (which I don't) who haven't had the experience of using different models and in different configs (which I do).

OPs come on here all the time saying that they need this or that without realizing the consequences of those choices. I believe that it's important for this community to point out when a choice is not a good one. And it's often important to emphasize that something is a BAD IDEA rather strongly to get the message across, in case alternatives are possible.

Now I'm not an audio engineer, speaker designer, or audio installer, but it's not rocket science to know that in-ceiling speakers are a BAD IDEA, even with improvements in technology.

If you disagree, and you believe in-ceiling are generally an equivalent alternative to in-wall or regular speakers, then come out and say so and say why, but with something more than speaker companies have spent lots of money on R&D.

1+^^^^^^^^ 100%
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post #33 of 46 Old 03-10-2013, 02:16 PM
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As far as your car sales analogy, that's like saying the guy who engineer's a Nascar suspension can drive it better than the actual driver. Or the person who design's a scalpel, band aids, or a laser cutter can perform surgery. One does not necessarily lead into the other.

Comparing yourself to a surgeon or a Nascar driver? I mean, I know that there are some very sharp, knowledgeable people out there doing home audio installation. But there are also nineteen year olds doing car installs at BestBuy who are better/more knowledgeable than some home audio installers. rolleyes.gif

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post #34 of 46 Old 03-10-2013, 02:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

OPs come on here all the time saying that they need this or that without realizing the consequences of those choices. I believe that it's important for this community to point out when a choice is not a good one. And it's often important to emphasize that something is a BAD IDEA rather strongly to get the message across, in case alternatives are possible.

Now I'm not an audio engineer, speaker designer, or audio installer, but it's not rocket science to know that in-ceiling speakers are a BAD IDEA, even with improvements in technology.

If you disagree, and you believe in-ceiling are generally an equivalent alternative to in-wall or regular speakers, then come out and say so and say why, but with something more than speaker companies have spent lots of money on R&D.

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+1 9 out of 10 people looking for advice in these forums dont have a clue on where to begin or what will give the best results for quality sound, and to get better options is a virtue i'd want if i was looking for and spending my hard earned cash on some speakers. just my 2 cents

I'm sorry, but most of the members here don't have a clue about what they are really talking about either and that's because their experience is very limited. So, as far as "community knowledge" goes this is a public forum for hobbyists where anyone can hop in and say whatever it is they want (even Mr. Fitzmaurice, who says he invented the concept of sound itself). Many of these folks have one system that they are familiar with and a few local stereo shops they go into from time to time. Some of them have incredibly impressive systems and homes as well. The problem is, again, the more narrow scope of ownership and experience from which people recommend things.

And I will be the first to say that many audio companies are very poorly educated and limited in their experiences as well. Last year we hosted a round table discussion with other integration firms around the state and asked why some of them carried the brands they carry. One guy carried Speakercraft and his answer was because most of the top 100 CI pros in the country use it so they thought it would be good to use as a main brand. Uhhhhh, what? That's a stupid reason to carry something. And this guy does a pretty decent little business (about $1,000,000 a year). Ridiculous.

CEL4145, I NEVER said that in-ceiling LCR is better than in or on wall. EVER. Why do you keep trying to push that idea on me? Is it just to argue? I will say this, and this is to my point of experience, sometimes because of room construction or room design in-ceiling LCR is a better option. No question. But, in terms of absolute performance in general... no. My argument in all of this is that in-ceiling LCR is NOT ALWAYS A BAD IDEA. The guy said he needs in-ceiling LCR.... he needs it. It is not a BAD IDEA to the point of pushing the red panic button.

You asked for reviews. I explained why in-ceiling reviews are seldom done and still provided you with one for what I would call an avg to above avg. product. Did you read it?
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post #35 of 46 Old 03-10-2013, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ntaherian View PostHello, my living room is about 18 x 20 feet and wondering whether or not I need 8" vs. 6" speakers. These will and must be in-ceilings and will be in a 7.1 configuration. It will be mostly for watching TV and background music.... Thanks

Too bad,  My room is about the same size I use B&W 800Ds and 802Ds :)

 

You could always go for CI 800 sets the standard for high-performance custom installation loudspeakers.

 

http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Speakers/Custom_Installation/CI_Series/CI-800.html

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post #36 of 46 Old 03-10-2013, 02:29 PM
 
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Comparing yourself to a surgeon or a Nascar driver? I mean, I know that there are some very sharp, knowledgeable people out there doing home audio installation. But there are also nineteen year olds doing car installs at BestBuy who are better/more knowledgeable than some home audio installers. rolleyes.gif

Did I compare myself to a brain surgeon or a Nascar driver? No. I used the careers as an example because they both use engineered products that are complex and/or simple. Look, you are clearly just looking to be argumentative. Not only do you not address the points I make in response to yours, but now you're taking things out of context and scope just for the sake of fighting about it.

I will make a simpler analogy: Just because a butcher can make wonderful cuts of meat doesn't make him a great chef and a great chef doesn't always have the skill set to be a better butcher. People are good at what they are good at and to an extent can trickle into related fields of expertise and be competent.

To directly use Bill Fitzmaurice's statement to me: Just because Bill knows how to build certain types of speakers does not make him better at designing systems and integrating them into someone's home, lifestyle, and living space.

Edit: The absolute BEST installer & programmer that has ever worked for our firm started as a kid in the car audio arena. If you can install in a car, a house is easy!
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post #37 of 46 Old 03-10-2013, 02:47 PM
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The only real concern about bill and cel is the idea of using in ceiling speakers for the front stage, that's why speaker company's made in wall and in ceiling speakers.
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post #38 of 46 Old 03-10-2013, 02:48 PM
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CEL4145, I NEVER said that in-ceiling LCR is better than in or on wall. EVER. Why do you keep trying to push that idea on me? Is it just to argue? I will say this, and this is to my point of experience, sometimes because of room construction or room design in-ceiling LCR is a better option. No question. But, in terms of absolute performance in general... no. My argument in all of this is that in-ceiling LCR is NOT ALWAYS A BAD IDEA. The guy said he needs in-ceiling LCR.... he needs it. It is not a BAD IDEA to the point of pushing the red panic button.

You asked for reviews. I explained why in-ceiling reviews are seldom done and still provided you with one for what I would call an avg to above avg. product. Did you read it?

I read the review. Seems like the reviewer was impressed in comparison to other in-ceiling speakers, but not as an alternative to other setups. Still a BAD IDEA. It is a BAD IDEA for the OP to go with in-ceiling speakers without knowing the consequences. I wouldn't choose to put those speakers in my ceiling over comparably price in walls or box speakers. Would you? LOL

As for "pushing the idea on" you, I was trying to get you to clearly make your point. You started off with all this hooplah about companies had improved in-ceiling speakers without qualifying what that improvement was. Instead of "awful" are they only "slightly horrible?" I'd think you'd want to provide a clear claim to what you are saying.

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post #39 of 46 Old 03-10-2013, 03:03 PM
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Did I compare myself to a brain surgeon or a Nascar driver? No. I used the careers as an example because they both use engineered products that are complex and/or simple. Look, you are clearly just looking to be argumentative. Not only do you not address the points I make in response to yours, but now you're taking things out of context and scope just for the sake of fighting about it.

I will make a simpler analogy: Just because a butcher can make wonderful cuts of meat doesn't make him a great chef and a great chef doesn't always have the skill set to be a better butcher. People are good at what they are good at and to an extent can trickle into related fields of expertise and be competent.

To directly use Bill Fitzmaurice's statement to me: Just because Bill knows how to build certain types of speakers does not make him better at designing systems and integrating them into someone's home, lifestyle, and living space.

Edit: The absolute BEST installer & programmer that has ever worked for our firm started as a kid in the car audio arena. If you can install in a car, a house is easy!

Actually, you've made it quite clear that you think you know more than Bill because you are an installer before making that analogy. The implication is there because you already setup the binary, whether or not you intended it that way.

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post #40 of 46 Old 03-10-2013, 04:38 PM
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To directly use Bill Fitzmaurice's statement to me: Just because Bill knows how to build certain types of speakers does not make him better at designing systems and integrating them into someone's home, lifestyle, and living space.
I really hate repeating myself, but I don't know how to design just certain types of speakers. I know how to design every type of speaker, and I know how to integrate them into someone's home, lifestyle and living space, whether that's an actual home or a 10,000 seat arena. That's what acoustical engineers do. I don't install them; that's what installers do.

In any event I come here to offer advice to those who want to learn. You clearly do not, so please do us both a favor. Block me as I am now blocking you, so that neither of us wastes any more time seeing each others posts.

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post #41 of 46 Old 03-10-2013, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post I really hate repeating myself, but I don't know how to design just certain types of speakers. I know how to design every type of speaker, and I know how to integrate them into someone's home, lifestyle and living space, whether that's an actual home or a 10,000 seat arena. That's what acoustical engineers do. I don't install them; that's what installers do.

In any event I come here to offer advice to those who want to learn. You clearly do not, so please do us both a favor. Block me as I am now blocking you, so that neither of us wastes any more time seeing each others posts.

Are you an EE?

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post #42 of 46 Old 03-10-2013, 07:19 PM
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Are you an EE?
M. Eng. EE is a related field, but while most acoustical engineers have an EE background few EEs are acoustical engineers.

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post #43 of 46 Old 03-10-2013, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post M. Eng. EE is a related field, but while most acoustical engineers have an EE background few EEs are acoustical engineers.

True at least you studied Physics :)

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post #44 of 46 Old 03-10-2013, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

M. Eng. EE is a related field, but while most acoustical engineers have an EE background few EEs are acoustical engineers.

I had always imagined that speaker design (including driver and tweeter design) would be tough because you'd have to develop a cross-disciplinary understanding of mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, and material science. Is that an incorrect assumption? Or is that all covered now in EE for acoustical engineers?

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post #45 of 46 Old 03-11-2013, 05:38 AM
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I had always imagined that speaker design (including driver and tweeter design) would be tough because you'd have to develop a cross-disciplinary understanding of mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, and material science. Is that an incorrect assumption? Or is that all covered now in EE for acoustical engineers?
EE, is just what it implies, the study of electricity. If you study EE you may learn about amplifier design, but probably not anything directly related to acoustics, which is the study of sound waves. Most acoustical engineers have a BS or BA or Associates degree in a related field, like EE, mechanical or civil engineering, even graphic design, with a minor in acoustical engineering on the undergrad level, or an M.Eng on the graduate level. Transducer engineering is a fairly large field, but not with respect to loudspeaker driver design. Many driver designers have a degree in a related field, but AFAIK there isn't any degree specific to driver design.

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post #46 of 46 Old 03-11-2013, 11:32 AM
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