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hit007 03-10-2013 01:07 PM

My room layout is as follows and i am planning a 5.1 system in this family room. We usually listen to a lot of music (60%) and some movies (40%) . I have two Polk Audio RTi10 for fronts and Klipsch 350w powered subwoofer and Denon 3311. I am confused which rear surrounds should i buy ?

I have two questions

1. Which kind of speaker is better for this room BIPOLEs (Defnitive Technology SR8040BP or Polk Audio Fxi A4) or Regular surrounds (Def Tech Mythos Two)

2. Which is the ideal location for this surrounds ?


Or should consider Inceiling (like Speakercraft AIM7 Three) for rears.

 




 

Family room arrangement.jpg 119k .jpg file

layout family room.png 36k .png file

I appreciate if anybody can help me with this. The the arrangement is really tricky

Thanks in advance


hit007 03-10-2013 01:15 PM


Newbie01 03-10-2013 01:46 PM

You don't have allot of options there...

1) SW corner near windows and on back wall next to kitchen.
2) In ceiling speakers (not good)


That is why allot of people have to have the TV room upstairs and a theater room other place...all this open living spaces are not easy to have a theater in.

This is just surround sound...so those two should work.

hit007 03-10-2013 05:19 PM

Thanks for the reply. Since it is a open floor plan it is really hard to place the speakers.

 

I also dont think that in-ceiling is a good option.

 

I am really concerned about the rear surrounds in this 5.1 setup. Should i go for bipole speakers or regular ones.

 

if i place the speakers on the back wall (in breakfast nook) near to kitchen, the sound will be obstructed by the small 3 ft wall at the end of the kitchen (next to living room) and also if it is bipole speakers the sound will be dispersed to kitchen

 

Please advice


Newbie01 03-10-2013 09:03 PM

You for sure dont want bipole - dipole here...they really must be 90-110 degrees from sitting position. You need monopoles.

Can you put the speaker near the closet wall with the shelf on the diagram...that may work too.

Another option is 3.1 and use virtual surround sound... Not optimal but it is something to think about.

Then when you get a real juicy movie you can break out the stands you have in the closet and a set of something inexpensive like the Ascend 170 SE or the equivlent.

3.1 95% of the time..and 5.1 when it is worth breaking out the stands and speakers...

Robert Cook 03-11-2013 04:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by hit007 View Post

1. Which kind of speaker is better for this room BIPOLEs (Defnitive Technology SR8040BP or Polk Audio Fxi A4) or Regular surrounds (Def Tech Mythos Two)

Regular speakers (monopoles) would be best, in my opinion. I'd say this for virtually every home theater, though. As for which speakers, we can decide on that once we get the placement down (unless you already own speakers that you could use).
Quote:
Originally Posted by hit007 View Post

2. Which is the ideal location for this surrounds ?

I'm not sure that I understand what has been discussed thus far, so I'll provide a diagram of what I'd recommend, just from the diagrams you posted:


Are there any reasons the surround speakers could not be mounted on stands or on the walls at the locations indicated by the red squares?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hit007 View Post

Or should consider Inceiling (like Speakercraft AIM7 Three) for rears.

In-ceiling speakers can work alright for surrounds (especially if your ceiling is level as opposed to slanted), but I still think that regular speakers are the better option of the two.

hit007 03-11-2013 10:52 PM

thanks both of you for the advice.

 

I am kind of convinced that Bipoles or dipoles are inappropriate as rears.

 

 

Quote:

 

"Are there any reasons the surround speakers could not be mounted on stands or on the walls at the locations indicated by the red squares?

since the back of the sofa is a passage and since i have small kids, mounting surrounds in stands may not be feasible. If we put on the locations of the red square, the surround rear might be at 90 degree angle (as recommended by THX). But since the distance between the sofa and the TV is short, we might need to pull back the sofa a little, and then the surrounds will be off position.

 

what is your opinion on this placement (as in pic below). I am thinking of buying "Definitive Technology Mythos Two Speaker" and wall mounting them in these positions slightly tilted towards the direction of the sofa at an angle 110 degree. The REAR RIGHT speaker will be ok, but then we have to make sure that the door near the REAR LEFT is closed while using the speakers.

 

Which of these TWO options (the one below vs the one suggested by Robert Cook) is best ?

And also to answer a previous question placing speakers near the closet wall is not feasible as it will be in the passage.

 

 

Also : Which REAR SURROUND does everybody recommend to suit my fronts and center. Is "Definitive Technology Mythos Two Speaker" a good choice.

 

My system so far : I have two Polk Audio RTi10 for fronts; Polk CSi5 as center and Klipsch 350w powered subwoofer and Denon AV3311 reciever.

 

Please let me have your expert opinions.


Newbie01 03-12-2013 11:08 AM

Like you...I had to come here to become edumecated.

In a 5.1 system...there are no "rear speakers" there are surround speakers...that should be placed from 90-120 degrees of sitting position and 2-3 feet above ear level while seated.

In a 7.1 you can have rear speakers.. However, the general public things of surround speakers as rear speakers...I know I did.

Now of course..this is all if you are able to shoot for 100% optimal placement. Dipole - Bipole speakers can be used for surrounds...allot of debate on this subject..but they do not work really as rear speakers.

Unless you are listening to multichannel music...allot...it is fine to mix and match front sound stage and rear / surround speakers.

Front left / center and right should be same.

To some extent...your over thinking this... Surrounds dont have a ton of information going through them...you should be fine.

Get Transformers dark of the moon...play the very start...and the stars sound will go around the room. Test it from different speaker placement...go with what sounds best.

Robert Cook 03-12-2013 11:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by hit007 View Post

Quote:
"Are there any reasons the surround speakers could not be mounted on stands or on the walls at the locations indicated by the red squares?
since the back of the sofa is a passage and since i have small kids, mounting surrounds in stands may not be feasible.

Could you mount them on the walls, then, high enough to put them out of the reach of your kids?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hit007 View Post

If we put on the locations of the red square, the surround rear might be at 90 degree angle (as recommended by THX). But since the distance between the sofa and the TV is short, we might need to pull back the sofa a little, and then the surrounds will be off position.

That distance looks fine to me--very typical of many if not most home theaters. I'm curious as to why you think the TV may be too close, and whether there is anything that could be done to solve the problem without moving the sofa back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hit007 View Post

what is your opinion on this placement (as in pic below).

This should work fine if you decide to move your sofa back a few feet (and keep the door closed while watching movies wink.gif), but then your screen would look smaller.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hit007 View Post

I am thinking of buying "Definitive Technology Mythos Two Speaker" and wall mounting them in these positions slightly tilted towards the direction of the sofa at an angle 110 degree.

Your positioning is fine, but this speaker seems a bit long and large for what it can do, in my opinion. Definitive Technology's specs for it say that it should be crossed over to the subwoofer at 100 Hz, which is a bit higher than ideal, in my opinion. I'd recommend checking these out instead:
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/htm200/htm200.html

They're a bit thicker but less than half the height, and they can be crossed over at 80 Hz.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hit007 View Post

The REAR RIGHT speaker will be ok, but then we have to make sure that the door near the REAR LEFT is closed while using the speakers.

These are not rear speakers, by the way, they are surround speakers, and if anything we should call them "side surrounds." Rear or back speakers are the additional pair used in standard 7.1 systems. I don't mean to be pedantic or didactic for the sake of being so, but I think this is an important distinction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hit007 View Post

Which of these TWO options (the one below vs the one suggested by Robert Cook) is best ?

If you'd prefer to place your surround speakers slightly behind the seats, as many people do (including me), then generally I would recommend my surround placement with the sofa moved forward, but if you feel that you must move the sofa back, then I think that your suggestion would be better. One change that I would make, though, is to move the right surround right up to the edge of the 3' wall (the top of the wall in the diagram) in order to avoid strong reflections.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hit007 View Post

Also : Which REAR SURROUND does everybody recommend to suit my fronts and center.

The best match would be the Polk Audio RTi4, but it's a bit chunky at 11.5" deep, which many people would find objectionable. The speaker that I mentioned earlier would not be a close match to your front speakers in terms of how they sound, but they're slimmer and make for great surrounds. Personally, I'd prefer to have as closely-matched a system as possible, including the surrounds, but people have different priorities, so obviously it's up to you. If you have any other requirements for the surrounds, such as maximum depth or whatever, then let us know.

Robert Cook 03-12-2013 11:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

Unless you are listening to multichannel music...allot...it is fine to mix and match front sound stage and rear / surround speakers.

It's still generally better to match than not to match whenever possible, as some effects are panned or imaged between the front and surround speakers. In addition, some movies have multichannel scores that would benefit from a seamless blend between matched fronts and surrounds. Most of the time it doesn't matter, though--that is true enough...except when it isn't. smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

Surrounds dont have a ton of information going through them...you should be fine.

...except when they do, in which case you'd be missing out if you skimped on your surrounds too much, and some movies (e.g. many war movies) have intense surround content.

Newbie01 03-12-2013 06:21 PM

I don't disagree with Rob... (I hope he dosen't mind being called Rob)

It is all a case of diminishing returns though... In a perfect world we would have 5 full range tower speakers...or 7 ..or 9 or 11 and 2, 4, 8 or 16 subwoofers.

If the speaker line you have in L/C/R is expensive and the corresponding surrounds would cost you allot...then its probably better spent getting a decent but not overly expensive set of surrounds.


Rob is right...but if you have to pick an area to "save" surrounds is a good place to do it.

HT = Sub + Center, Music = L/R + Sub

Adjust the rest based on your other priorities...

hit007 03-12-2013 09:35 PM

Thanks so much for all the inputs. Also thanks for correcting me to say "surrounds".

 

 

Quote:
One change that I would make, though, is to move the right surround right up to the edge of the 3' wall (the top of the wall in the diagram) in order to avoid strong reflections.

I will do this. I think i will go for the setup as shown below. I will be doing the pre-wiring as the house is under construction now. I have the appointment with the low voltage guys for this next week.

 

 

Also attaching below the actual photo of the model home for the house i am building. The room will be set up exactly like this. Please let me know if you have any more suggestions on placement or if the above placement is a bad idea, so that I can finalize the exact placement location

 

 

 

Hope these pics will help to illustrate and judge a suitable option (both placement location and also which speakers)

 

 

I listen to a lot of music and i like the Multichannel stereo. So at one point i was thinking of putting floor standing (full range) speakers as surrounds. But if you think this is not a bad idea, then i can think of putting floor standing (full range) speakers as surrounds if we can find something which not that bulky and huge to be placed in a family room as shown above. Please advice.

 

The reason i chose "Def Tech Mythos Two" is one...many reviews says it is good. Two...its sleek and compact design make the family room look better. I even thought of going with Def Tech Mythos Five (and wall mounting it...eventhough it may look as two long speakers on wall)  when i thought the concept of 5 channel stereo music ( which i like when listening to music).

 

Quote:
Unless you are listening to multichannel music...allot...it is fine to mix and match front sound stage and rear / surround speakers.

 

Will Def Tech Mythos (Two or Five) sound match with my current front sound stage setup ? If so what is my option in this room setup in the above recommended positions ?

 

Please advice if you have something similar in mind which will match the my front sound stage at the same time not compromising the beauty of the family room (esp when we think this has to go in the back). Polk Audio RTi4 is a bit bulky. Some reviews and forum says that Def Tech Mythos Five may sound good for multichannel stereo. I do agree with the concept of Timbre matching the speakers, but Polk surrounds are bit bulky. My friend has Polk OWM5, i have heard it and it didnt sound good to me.

 

Once again thank you Robert Cook and Newbie01 for the suggestions


Robert Cook 03-12-2013 10:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

I don't disagree with Rob... (I hope he dosen't mind being called Rob)

Well, my last name isn't Banks or Jewelrystore, so I guess I'm OK with that. wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

It is all a case of diminishing returns though... In a perfect world we would have 5 full range tower speakers...or 7 ..or 9 or 11 and 2, 4, 8 or 16 subwoofers.

If the speaker line you have in L/C/R is expensive and the corresponding surrounds would cost you allot...then its probably better spent getting a decent but not overly expensive set of surrounds.

Oh, I agree. I just want people to be fully aware of what they're trading off. Budget is the usual culprit that forces tradeoffs, and that's alright as long as we know what we're doing. In this case, the OP has the budget for matching surrounds of sufficient capability, but the question is whether the speakers would be too large (aesthetics and other placement issues are the other major culprit).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

Rob is right...but if you have to pick an area to "save" surrounds is a good place to do it.

Agreed, as long as you don't compromise more than you're compelled to.

Robert Cook 03-13-2013 11:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by hit007 View Post

Also attaching below the actual photo of the model home for the house i am building. The room will be set up exactly like this. Please let me know if you have any more suggestions on placement or if the above placement is a bad idea, so that I can finalize the exact placement location

My only concern is whether the speakers would get in anybody's way (physically or at least visually), but if this placement is OK with you, then it's OK with me. Actually, on second thought I didn't realize how close the couch would be to the right surround (left surround in the mirror-image model house). Now I see why you originally had it farther across the wall, and now I'm thinking that that placement would be better overall unless your couch will be placed more to the left (to the right in the photo). Whatever you end up doing, make sure that both surrounds are more to the side than behind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hit007 View Post

I listen to a lot of music and i like the Multichannel stereo. So at one point i was thinking of putting floor standing (full range) speakers as surrounds. But if you think this is not a bad idea, then i can think of putting floor standing (full range) speakers as surrounds if we can find something which not that bulky and huge to be placed in a family room as shown above. Please advice.

If you like listening to multichannel music (whether it's mixed that way or your receiver duplicates the stereo signal in the surrounds), then I don't think it is necessarily overkill to use full-range tower speakers. Unfortunately, however, to be full-range requires some size, and somehow I doubt that you'd want such speakers standing at those locations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hit007 View Post

The reason i chose "Def Tech Mythos Two" is one...many reviews says it is good. Two...its sleek and compact design make the family room look better. I even thought of going with Def Tech Mythos Five (and wall mounting it...eventhough it may look as two long speakers on wall)  when i thought the concept of 5 channel stereo music ( which i like when listening to music).

These "toothpick towers" (just coined the term wink.gif) sound pretty good, but they're not exactly full-range, as one specifies a 100 Hz crossover to the sub and the other specifies a 120 Hz crossover, so despite all of their drivers they're really more like satellite speakers that can play louder--but not deeper--than most. The other speakers, though chunkier, should sound fuller and can be crossed over as low as 80 Hz, which would be better for both movies and multichannel music. And the following speakers should be slimmer but just as good:
http://www.nhthifi.com/Home-Theater-On-Wall-Speakers

Unfortunately, they're definitely not a match (as in timbral match, or having basically the same "voice") for your front speakers, and I'm not sure about the Def Techs--the only decent match known to me would be something like the RTi4, I'm afraid--pick your poison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hit007 View Post

Will Def Tech Mythos (Two or Five) sound match with my current front sound stage setup ? If so what is my option in this room setup in the above recommended positions ?

Just from unreliable audio memory, I'd say that they'd match somewhat better than the other speakers (besides the RTi4), but they don't sound the same as that brand and series--even other Polk Audio series don't sound like the RTi series.

Robert Cook 03-13-2013 11:43 AM

By the way, for a more in-depth discussion of timbre-matching, you may want to read the following thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1459292/how-important-is-it-to-timbre-match-your-speakers-5-1-home-theater/0_100

There are a few additional examples of surround speakers in there for you to check out, too.

hit007 03-14-2013 06:26 AM

Quote:
My only concern is whether the speakers would get in anybody's way (physically or at least visually), but if this placement is OK with you, then it's OK with me.

The only way to place a Full range (Floorstanding) speaker as the surrounds for multichannel music will be at the top corners in breakfast nook in the very back. I dont know if this will be of any good as the seating is further down. Please advice

 

I am thinking of a budget of a maximum of $400 to $500 for both surrounds. I think i shouldnt spend more than this on surrounds.So then the Def Tech Mythos Five (evenif it is matching) is out of budget.

 

Also what is your opinion on Carver TFM-22 Amplifier. I can get this for $275 in ebay. Will you advice me to buy this for my front speakers

 

Thanks


Robert Cook 03-14-2013 03:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by hit007 View Post

The only way to place a Full range (Floorstanding) speaker as the surrounds for multichannel music will be at the top corners in breakfast nook in the very back. I dont know if this will be of any good as the seating is further down. Please advice

I wouldn't be surprised if there were somebody out there who used this placement and liked it, or even preferred it, but personally I would recommend against it--it's just too far in the rear from what is intended, and more appropriate for 7.1 rear surrounds than for side surrounds in a 5.1 system. I doubt that you would gain enough from using towers to justify this, as well as likely having to step down in sound quality to stay within your budget. I recommend that you just pick the best and best-matching bookshelf/on-wall surround speakers that you can afford and physically accommodate, and mount them on the wall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hit007 View Post

I am thinking of a budget of a maximum of $400 to $500 for both surrounds. I think i shouldnt spend more than this on surrounds.So then the Def Tech Mythos Five (evenif it is matching) is out of budget.

Any of the speakers suggested so far fit within this budget, and your choice is constrained by size anyway. With multichannel audio a priority in your case, if I were you I'd find some way--using self-hypnosis if necessary wink.gif--to accommodate a pair of RTi4s. I've had to make compromises, too, but for me timbre-matching (even of the surrounds) is a significant aspect of sound quality, and that's where I'd like to compromise the least. Others will disagree (some rather strongly) over matching the surrounds to the fronts, but that's their opinion and this is mine, for what it's worth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hit007 View Post

Also what is your opinion on Carver TFM-22 Amplifier. I can get this for $275 in ebay. Will you advice me to buy this for my front speakers

It looks like a good amplifier with plenty of power for your speakers, and the RTi series does tend to benefit from more powerful, high-current-capable amps. That said, your AVR is pretty decent and you may not notice much of a difference except at very loud volumes; additionally, the benefit for home theater would be limited to the left & right front channels, while the center channel, which is generally the most important and heavily-used channel with most movies, would be lacking in comparison (again, if you can hear a difference to begin with at your normal volume) unless you bought another amp for it.

hit007 03-16-2013 03:05 PM

I bought Carver TFM 35 today. Can I connect this to the front speakers from the pre-amp out of Denon 3311 and then using the other normal output for center and surrounds ? Is this ok.

 

I dont think i need another pre-amp. Can i use Denon 3311 as preamp for front channels

 

Also do i need to buy a special RCA cable to connect the Denon to the amp ? Please advice

 

I am also looking at a Hafler T3300 for center channel.

 

Thank you Robert for your advice


Robert Cook 03-16-2013 03:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by hit007 View Post

I bought Carver TFM 35 today. Can I connect this to the front speakers from the pre-amp out of Denon 3311 and then using the other normal output for center and surrounds ? Is this ok.

Yes, it is OK for the Carver to power your left & right front speakers while the Denon powers the rest. This should help the Denon by reducing its total load, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hit007 View Post

I dont think i need another pre-amp. Can i use Denon 3311 as preamp for front channels

Sure, the Denon will continue to function as your pre-amp, except that it will no longer power your left & right fronts since the Carver will be doing that now instead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hit007 View Post

Also do i need to buy a special RCA cable to connect the Denon to the amp ? Please advice

Simply use any decent RCA stereo audio cable; individual cables and video cables will work equally well, too. If you don't have any handy, then Monoprice is a good source. Their premium audio cables are inexpensive and of adequate quality (albeit a bit stiff). Truth be told, however, I seriously doubt that you could hear a difference even if you used the cheapest, thinnest RCA cable (unless you have an interference problem of some kind)--it's just a basic analog cable that carries a fairly undemanding type of signal (unlike HDMI, for example).

hit007 03-17-2013 09:33 AM

thanks for the advice...will follow that

 

For the center channel i am looking at Hafler P1500 ...somebody is willing to sell it to me for $235. Do you recommend to go for that. I was thinking of bridging mono to get 170 watts at 8 ohms  OR should i let Denon handle center channel also


Robert Cook 03-18-2013 08:35 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by hit007 View Post

For the center channel i am looking at Hafler P1500 ...somebody is willing to sell it to me for $235. Do you recommend to go for that. I was thinking of bridging mono to get 170 watts at 8 ohms  OR should i let Denon handle center channel also

Well, generally I'm a "put more money in the speakers and as little as necessary in the amps" kind of guy, and as stated previously I'm not even sure whether you would noticeably benefit from the more powerful amp you have now for your left & right fronts. Purely on principle, if you upgraded the amplification for those, then you should upgrade the amplification for the center as well, but on the other hand if it wasn't needed to begin with, then you might as well save your money and let your AVR power the center. If you feel that you've benefited from having more powerful amps for your left & right fronts, after listening for yourself, then I'd say go for it, otherwise maybe not (only if the peace of mind would be worth the money in your view). Definitely try the Carver first to see what difference it makes.

hit007 03-18-2013 08:58 PM

Thanks Robert...i am going to wait for some time (may be a month of listening) until to see whether to add another amp or not. Thanks for your advice...i really value your advice
 



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