home audio questions - in ceiling speakers - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 21 Old 03-16-2013, 10:00 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
supersmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
hello all!

Apologies for the ignorance I am potentially about to display...

I am currently in the process of building a house and had the main level wired for sound (6 spots for speakers. 4 in the living room and 2 in the kitchen, as well as a sub output) and 4 in the lower level which I will use for a media room.

Initially I am looking to the upper level, primarily for music... I just visited the magnolia store where I auditioned the Sonance VP 85 R as well as the Sonance VP 81R - the 85s had a fuller sound (with a nearly 300.00 per speaker premium attached to it)

I plan on using a maurantz sr5006 initially, maybe long term to power the upstairs set up, which I purchased new for a steal a year ago for 200.00.

7-channel amplifier
100 watts per channel into 8 ohms (20-20,000 Hz) at 0.08% THD, with 2 channels driven
Dolby® TrueHD, DTS-HD™ Master Audio, Dolby® Digital Plus, DTS-HD™ High Resolution Audio, Dolby® Digital EX, DTS-ES™, Pro Logic® IIx, Pro Logic® IIz, SRS Circle Surround II, and DTS Neo:6 decoding

in the demo room they were running a McIntosh amp to power the speakers, big difference between this amp at nearly 4K and I know the McIntosh reputation, and a 200.00 (originally 8-900$) Maurantz...

I tested an equivalent Maurantz with these speakers and there seemed to be an appreciable difference in sound quality.

So, here is the question for your folks whom have worked with this (or have knowledge)

Really looking for the most bang for the buck, obviously best sound reproduction possible with the Maurantz (though maybe it is worth investing in high end speakers and plugging in a different amp later)

I had hoped to spend 250 or less for speakers though if I have to cough up 5-600 to REALLY make a difference I will. I am thinking 3 way, but wondering what your thoughts are on speakers (2vs3 way) brand, etc. would love to be able to FILL THE ROOM with Clean, Crisp, pure sound that ROCKS and yet appreciate music at much lower levels at times...

Also, for the downstairs, no receiver yet, but thoughts on mid and surrounds for the media room in ceiling speakers?

Thoughts? and thank you in advance for any answers... if you need more information let me know.
supersmith is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 21 Old 03-16-2013, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
supersmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
OH, another note, not sold on setting up a sub for the main living areas and I have been reading about HTD Hd r80s - seem interesting, wondering if anyone has used these as a whole house set up?
supersmith is offline  
post #3 of 21 Old 03-21-2013, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
supersmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
still no opinions? How about this, as anyone used the HTD in celiing speakers?
supersmith is offline  
post #4 of 21 Old 03-21-2013, 02:18 PM
Senior Member
 
PlexMulti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 291
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 44
The HTD speakers look like any other generic in-ceiling speaker. If you're looking for clean, clear, crisp, dynamic sound these are not going to do it.

BG Radia makes the finest architectural speakers I have ever heard. They range from $349 a pair (RT-6CJ) to $700 a pair MSRP (PD-6Ci) for the in-ceiling models. They are stunning and at either price point will suit your needs. Maybe do the 6CJ in some rooms and the 6Ci in rooms where you really want heavy bass or serious listening. We've used the 6CJ in multi million dollar homes and people rave about them, so they aren't a bad choice at all. They can't be touched at their priced point and the PD-6Ci is untouchable period unless you go to the 8" version, which gets much more expensive. There is even a middle model that is price between the two that doesn't have the bass of the PD-6Ci, which is incredible for an in-ceiling, but it DOES use the same planar magnetic tweeter which is what accounts for a large improvement of sound between the entry level model and the higher end.

And your Marantz receiver is perfectly fine!

Here is a link to their distributed audio products: http://bgcorp.com/distributed_audio_table.html

EDIT: The speakers I listed above would be for distributed audio NOT for your theater downstairs. If I read correctly, you were looking to add that later?
PlexMulti is offline  
post #5 of 21 Old 03-21-2013, 02:24 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,702
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1356
Quote:
Originally Posted by supersmith View Post

still no opinions? How about this, as anyone used the HTD in celiing speakers?
You probably won't find many here using speakers of that sort. No offense, but that's what you put in an elevator, hotel lobby or restaurant for background music. Which is fine if that's what you want, but they're not for anything one would call serious listening, be it music or HT.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is online now  
post #6 of 21 Old 03-21-2013, 03:06 PM
Senior Member
 
PlexMulti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 291
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

You probably won't find many here using speakers of that sort. No offense, but that's what you put in an elevator, hotel lobby or restaurant for background music. Which is fine if that's what you want, but they're not for anything one would call serious listening, be it music or HT.

OP, please please please do NOT listen to this line of thinking. Unfortunately, some people are still stuck in the 70's. Today, there are hundreds of models available from a great many well respected comapnies and speaker engineers.
PlexMulti is offline  
post #7 of 21 Old 03-21-2013, 03:38 PM
Advanced Member
 
Newbie01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: North Wales, PA
Posts: 834
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlexMulti View Post

OP, please please please do NOT listen to this line of thinking. Unfortunately, some people are still stuck in the 70's. Today, there are hundreds of models available from a great many well respected comapnies and speaker engineers.

Just because they sell them and people buy them does not mean they sound good. No offense but I take what Bill says as pretty much gospel. Bill rarely gives opinions he gives facts backed by physics and engineering.

Ignore him if you like...but people with allot more knowledge than me have never, to my knowledge, called Bill out on being wrong.
Newbie01 is offline  
post #8 of 21 Old 03-21-2013, 04:10 PM
Senior Member
 
PlexMulti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 291
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

Just because they sell them and people buy them does not mean they sound good. No offense but I take what Bill says as pretty much gospel. Bill rarely gives opinions he gives facts backed by physics and engineering.

Ignore him if you like...but people with allot more knowledge than me have never, to my knowledge, called Bill out on being wrong.

Just because someone builds (certain types of) speakers doesn't mean that they know how to do everything and anything in audio. Although, SOME people will tell you otherwise.

Please don't be offended when I suggest that you shouldn't take anything anyone says on here as gospel or be in anyone's fan club. Always do your own research and seek truth, not just believe it.

I'm not going to type up a post slamming one person or another just for the sake of doing so. I will say, however, that I have been in the audio business for 15 years both in manufacturing and in owning a custom integration firm. I work hand in hand with speaker manufacturers, engineers, and designers every week to engineer environments for people to listen to music, watch movies, and enjoy technology in general. There are absolutely wonderful in-ceiling speaker systems available to people out there that offer excellent detail, articulate bass, and a high quality experience for TV watching and listening to music while remaining relatively hidden and out of the way. To suggest otherwise is not only behind the times, but egregiously so.
PlexMulti is offline  
post #9 of 21 Old 03-21-2013, 04:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
flyng_fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Frisco, TX
Posts: 3,425
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 71
There are only a couple of in ceiling speakers I would even consider for HT use and only as a last resort.

Like these ones:

http://www.hideflifestyle.com/audio/speakers/in-wall-speakers/definitive-technology-uiw-rcs-ii-in-ceiling-speaker.html

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
flyng_fool is offline  
post #10 of 21 Old 03-21-2013, 04:25 PM
Senior Member
 
ProfD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 472
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 18
A lot of ppl recommend the Monoprice in ceiling speakers. There is a thread about them here. But if you want a hardcore speaker setup then in ceiling is the wrong way to go IMO. If you are going for a clean look instead of top notch audio, then go in ceiling for sure.
ProfD is offline  
post #11 of 21 Old 03-21-2013, 04:46 PM
Senior Member
 
PlexMulti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 291
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

There are only a couple of in ceiling speakers I would even consider for HT use and only as a last resort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfD View Post

A lot of ppl recommend the Monoprice in ceiling speakers. There is a thread about them here. But if you want a hardcore speaker setup then in ceiling is the wrong way to go IMO. If you are going for a clean look instead of top notch audio, then go in ceiling for sure.

Just to get a point of reference, which theater systems have you listened to that use in-ceiling speakers? And, if you can recall, which brands/models were they and how tall were the ceilings?
PlexMulti is offline  
post #12 of 21 Old 03-21-2013, 05:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
flyng_fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Frisco, TX
Posts: 3,425
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 71
I've listened to plenty and they all sounded like the sound was coming from overhead instead of the screen. None of them sounded natural at all.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
flyng_fool is offline  
post #13 of 21 Old 03-21-2013, 05:25 PM
Senior Member
 
ProfD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 472
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlexMulti View Post


Just to get a point of reference, which theater systems have you listened to that use in-ceiling speakers? And, if you can recall, which brands/models were they and how tall were the ceilings?

Well I admit that I am not an AV guy who has listened to tons of in-ceiling setups.

The best I can give you is that I have a relative who lives in a mansion in NJ with her family. They had an top rated AV professional set up a 5.1 wired in-ceiling speaker system in their large family room last year, with a huge samsung plasma TV. They have wired in ceiling speakers in about 5 rooms in their house that you can control with a Sonos setup through a laptop or other devices. Ceilings are 8ft or 10ft depending upon the room. I never asked the brand of speaker they used, but they are all 8" speakers and trust me they spared no expense.

Do I complain about the sound quality when I am in their house? No. It sounds very good, no question. But if I compare the sound quality of their setup to decent tower speakers for 2 channel listening, or several well rated 5.1 speaker setups that I have heard it is really no comparison. The regular speakers sound much better.

That said, I am about to put two monoprice 8" speakers into my kitchen ceiling on Saturday. And two more to use as surrounds in my living room. (This was a wife request.) But I greatly prefer to go down to my basement and listen to my B&W setup. smile.gif
ProfD is offline  
post #14 of 21 Old 03-21-2013, 07:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,702
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1356
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

There are only a couple of in ceiling speakers I would even consider for HT use and only as a last resort.

Like these ones:

http://www.hideflifestyle.com/audio/speakers/in-wall-speakers/definitive-technology-uiw-rcs-ii-in-ceiling-speaker.html
Those aren't too bad, as at least their radiation pattern is coming from the right direction. But they cost at least twice what a comparable free standing speaker does, and with the midbasses horizontally aligned they will have comb filtering and narrowed midrange dispersion.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is online now  
post #15 of 21 Old 03-21-2013, 08:09 PM
Senior Member
 
PlexMulti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 291
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfD View Post

Well I admit that I am not an AV guy who has listened to tons of in-ceiling setups.

The best I can give you is that I have a relative who lives in a mansion in NJ with her family. They had an top rated AV professional set up a 5.1 wired in-ceiling speaker system in their large family room last year, with a huge samsung plasma TV. They have wired in ceiling speakers in about 5 rooms in their house that you can control with a Sonos setup through a laptop or other devices. Ceilings are 8ft or 10ft depending upon the room. I never asked the brand of speaker they used, but they are all 8" speakers and trust me they spared no expense.

Do I complain about the sound quality when I am in their house? No. It sounds very good, no question. But if I compare the sound quality of their setup to decent tower speakers for 2 channel listening, or several well rated 5.1 speaker setups that I have heard it is really no comparison. The regular speakers sound much better.

That said, I am about to put two monoprice 8" speakers into my kitchen ceiling on Saturday. And two more to use as surrounds in my living room. (This was a wife request.) But I greatly prefer to go down to my basement and listen to my B&W setup. smile.gif

Ok, this is a perfect response and I thank you for taking the time to provide details about your experiences.

THIS is a great place to start. Can I give a blanket statement that in-ceiling speakers = towers or bookshelf speakers? Absolutely, positively NOT. Can I say that there are some in-ceiling speakers that sound a lot better than some tower or book shelf models..... heck yes. There are some nasty sounding speakers out there for sure!

- The point of an in-ceiling speaker system in a home is not critical, full range stereo listening. Anyone trying to achieve or expect that is probably going to be in for a disappointment. An in-ceiling system is meant for sound reproducing equipment to kept out of the way in rooms where that activity isn't going to be a primary focus. Kitchen, Bathroom, Foyer, Patio, etc. My point to the OP is that there are some excellent, incredible sounding in-ceiling speakers out there that will allow sound to float throughout your room and, should you choose to get really into what you're listening to, allow for some very good listening experiences, even at high volumes.

- In-ceiling surround. This is the toughest thing to do right, and is definitely expensive to do so. Just about all of the in-ceiling LCR speakers under, say, $400-600 each are going to be of the variety where the manufacturer just took a woofer, tilted it 15 to 30 degrees, and stuck a tweeter over it. These are all going to sound about the same, which is just kind of OK. Not real dynamic, and it's hard to justify spending a lot on this config.

But, there are some models out there that when placed and installed correctly can be stunning performers.There is certainly a premium price tag tied to those. Typically, a really great in-ceiling LCR is going to go for around $1,000 and will need to be placed properly and in a proper room to be effective. This is not to say it will or will not equal a $1,000 floor standing speaker or book shelf. I can give examples both ways.

Which brings me full circle back around to some of the other posts... This is technology we're dealing with. There is very little anyone can put a black and white stamp on when it comes to audio/video/control. It is constantly evolving and changing with new and amazing products coming out every day that change the way things are done.
PlexMulti is offline  
post #16 of 21 Old 03-22-2013, 05:56 AM
AVS Special Member
 
flyng_fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Frisco, TX
Posts: 3,425
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 71
I have to disagree with you there. In-ceilings for the surrounds are probably the easiest because all they're providing is some ambient surround effects and not necessarily discrete, precise location and imaging duties.(although that is beginning to change). The front's job is to provide a seamless soundstage with pinpoint imaging with wide dynamic range. I can't think of one in-ceiling that can do this well. Now if he got some higher-end in walls for the front stage, he will have a way better experience than in-ceiling speakers.

Also, a tower speaker that costs of fraction of what the best in-ceilings does will be able to easily outdo it in terms of response, dynamics and imaging. Although I tend to agree that there are some seriously lousy speakers out there claiming to be the best ever!

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
flyng_fool is offline  
post #17 of 21 Old 03-22-2013, 06:44 AM
Advanced Member
 
Skytrooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Baden, Pa.
Posts: 515
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 84
I had no choice other than to use in ceiling speakers in my old listening room. ( Surrounds and Surround Back ) They worked quite well. ( Paradigm SA-15R ) Being on a budget for my new family room, I re used them and mounted them in the side walls and back wall. I built enclosures for them and now they sound even better. I like in walls because the room does not seemed cluttered with speakers and they are only used for surround effects anyways.

(LCD - Sony KDL - XBR4) (Receiver - Sony STR-DA4ES)(Blu Ray - Oppo BDP-83) (PS3)( Dish Hopper DVR With Sling) Speakers (L & R - Paradigm Studio 20) (Center -Paradigm CC-470) (Surrounds & Back Surrounds - Paradigm SA-15R in walls) (Subwoofer 1 - Sunfire HRS-12) (Subwoofer 2 - Paradigm PW-2100)
Skytrooper is online now  
post #18 of 21 Old 03-22-2013, 07:25 AM
Senior Member
 
PlexMulti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 291
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

I have to disagree with you there. In-ceilings for the surrounds are probably the easiest because all they're providing is some ambient surround effects and not necessarily discrete, precise location and imaging duties.(although that is beginning to change). The front's job is to provide a seamless soundstage with pinpoint imaging with wide dynamic range. I can't think of one in-ceiling that can do this well. Now if he got some higher-end in walls for the front stage, he will have a way better experience than in-ceiling speakers.

Also, a tower speaker that costs of fraction of what the best in-ceilings does will be able to easily outdo it in terms of response, dynamics and imaging. Although I tend to agree that there are some seriously lousy speakers out there claiming to be the best ever!

There are a lot of speakers out there at various price points ranging from cheap crap to surprisingly expensive that do an awful job and nowhere near pin-point imaging or carry dynamics for a front stage and just plain sound bad. This happens all the time in boxed, in-ceiling, and in-wall speakers across the board.

Feel free to check out this speaker: http://bgcorp.com/PDFs/IC-201%20ProductSheet.pdf

And this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMRVPXTmjzs

I will vouch for this speaker 100%! Several other manufacturers have decent ones, too. This is just what I have found to be best. We had a project where the client was not finishing his lower level theater, but wanted something killer for his family room to hold him over. We installed two of these: http://bgcorp.com/PDFs/SA-320%20ProductSheet.pdf as left and rights behind acoustically transparent artwork and one of the IC-201 in the ceiling for the center above the flat panel. This was done because wall construction made using the in-wall as a center impossible. Because BG speakers all carry virtually the same "voice", the result was a seamless system where it was impossible to know that the center was in-ceiling and not coming from the wall. The only place where the center in-ceiling was apparent was about 3 to 4 feet from in front of the TV - and nobody (at least in that house) watches it from there. Am I going to say that this was 100% perfect/optimal? NO. It was, however,100% the best blend of performance, cost, and aesthetics the room could have and I would not hesitate doing this layout for even the most discerning client (this particular one was certainly into performance and loves the system).


I have one of these sitting around our design center somewhere and will take some pics of it later today when I get back from from my field checks.
PlexMulti is offline  
post #19 of 21 Old 03-22-2013, 01:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
flyng_fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Frisco, TX
Posts: 3,425
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 71
BG Radia is a very well respected company with some very good products. In just looking at the speaker it appears to me it's set up for some nasty comb filtering. I would have to hear it in person to make any sort of judgement.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
flyng_fool is offline  
post #20 of 21 Old 05-17-2013, 10:52 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
supersmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hey all, apologies for dissapearing.. just got moved in!

Reviewing all of your comments and I very much appreciate your insights here.

I have a 2 channel set up for my media room (will be 5.1 with 2 in ceiling, 2 tower fronts, center and sub) living spaces, dont expect the same performance as in towers but just good, clean music.

Thank you again, will look through!
supersmith is offline  
post #21 of 21 Old 05-21-2013, 10:08 AM
Advanced Member
 
MusicFirst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 839
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlexMulti View Post

There are a lot of speakers out there at various price points ranging from cheap crap to surprisingly expensive that do an awful job and nowhere near pin-point imaging or carry dynamics for a front stage and just plain sound bad. This happens all the time in boxed, in-ceiling, and in-wall speakers across the board.

Feel free to check out this speaker: http://bgcorp.com/PDFs/IC-201%20ProductSheet.pdf

And this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMRVPXTmjzs.

I installed three IC201's as lcr's up front and two IC202's for surround duty for a customer and was simply floored at how good they sounded. The front soundstage literally sounded as if the sound was coming from the front wall. BG Radia told me that the audio signal on the forward facing speakers is delayed through the crossover so it will match the audio coming through the speakers facing the front wall after it reflects off that wall.

But PlexMulti is right, unless you are a few feet from the front wall you cannot tell that the speakers are mounted in the ceiling. Even listening to music in stereo, it sounds amazing..,..
Anyway, since I now have a full time job (and only do AV work occasionally on the weekends), I have not had the opportunity to install any more of these systems. But I would not hesitate on making the recommendation. You won't believe it until you hear them....
MusicFirst is offline  
Reply Speakers

Tags
In Ceiling Speakers

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off