Please lots of help guys on speaker setup and placement - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 14 Old 03-18-2013, 08:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi guys

Well let me tell you i am no expert about his, i don't know where is the best place to buy stuff or how to install it. I am electrical engineer so i know something, i am not that dumb, i can setup equipment, networks etc... so after been looking to buy a house and having some people declining our offers we pulled the trigger to build our own house. I have floor plan(see the pics)






So first wife said game room is for the tv( i dont want tv on the living room ), she also wants audio outside and in the living room to hear pandora, sportify or other stuff

so i was looking at the ONKYO TX-NR717 7.2 which is around $569 dollars why? because it has 3 powered zones.

then i think in the game room i will have the left center and right speaker in wall mounted and the other 4 on the ceiling? does it makes sense? or what would be the best way to do it. could you paint the speaker grills?

since the main tv is going to be on the game room with the sound system i have decided to put the receiver on that room in some kind of TV stand and not hidden in some closet, does it makes sense?

definitely i don't want to break the bank i am looking for the best bang for my buck i am not asking high quality sound just what is the best i can get for around $2200 $2400... because i know there are speakers that cost around thousands of dollars.

i will have talk with the builder next week so i need to arrive prepared for this stuff to tell him if he is going to charge me more to wire everything to the desire spots.


i would appreciate your help on this guys, since i am not savvy enough on this subject. i promise to send you picture in 6 months when it is finished lol...
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post #2 of 14 Old 03-19-2013, 05:46 AM
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Personally, I would not want ceiling speakers, much less with a 10ft high ceiling, but that is me.
You are much better off using all in-wall speakers.

Right now the best bang for the buck in-wall speakers are JBL P941...these speakers will go down to 32 htz...so you could choose not to get a sub, or at least not right off. These speakers as the name suggests, have a 9" al mid-bass, 4" Al midrange, 1" Ti tweeter.

The full retail is over $1600/ea....But there is a dealer on ebay selling them for $370/ea...sold in pairs. So if you bought 3 pairs that is only $1,110. So you would have your LCRs, L/RS and either a single rear surround for 6.0 or an extra. And of coarse, with your budget, plenty left for a sub or two.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JBL-P941-Reference-In-Wall-Speaker-/230938833487?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item35c506f24f

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post #3 of 14 Old 03-19-2013, 07:35 AM
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then i think in the game room i will have the left center and right speaker in wall mounted and the other 4 on the ceiling? does it makes sense? or what would be the best way to do it.

It makes sense, but even for surrounds I would preferentially go with in-walls if possible, and in-ceilings only if I had no other choice. I recommend placing the TV and in-wall LCR speakers on the right-side wall (in the diagram), the left & right surround speakers in the left-side corners as far forward as they'll go before reaching the windows or doors (or placed above them if necessary, depending on where your seats will be), and the back surrounds in the wall behind the seats, of course. Where do you plan to place your seats, by the way?
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could you paint the speaker grills?

Yes, if they are perforated metal grilles. Use thinned paint and take care to not clog any of the holes, of course.
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since the main tv is going to be on the game room with the sound system i have decided to put the receiver on that room in some kind of TV stand and not hidden in some closet, does it makes sense?

It's a matter of aesthetics versus convenience, and is entirely up to you. The same goes for in-wall speakers--I wouldn't bother, myself, but it's important for some folks.
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Personally, I would not want ceiling speakers, much less with a 10ft high ceiling, but that is me.
You are much better off using all in-wall speakers.

I agree, and far as I can tell, there is only one home theater system orientation that would work for this (described above).
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Right now the best bang for the buck in-wall speakers are JBL P941...these speakers will go down to 32 htz...so you could choose not to get a sub, or at least not right off. These speakers as the name suggests, have a 9" al mid-bass, 4" Al midrange, 1" Ti tweeter.

The full retail is over $1600/ea....But there is a dealer on ebay selling them for $370/ea...sold in pairs. So if you bought 3 pairs that is only $1,110. So you would have your LCRs, L/RS and either a single rear surround for 6.0 or an extra. And of coarse, with your budget, plenty left for a sub or two.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JBL-P941-Reference-In-Wall-Speaker-/230938833487?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item35c506f24f

This looks like a good deal. A single center back surround should suffice, but if the OP would rather have a full 7.1 system with two back surrounds, then he could buy two pairs of these for the front (sell the extra one) and a couple of pairs of the following instead for the surrounds (for example):
http://www.amazon.com/JBL-SP8II-8-Inch-In-Wall-Speaker/dp/B000MFRXNU
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post #4 of 14 Old 03-19-2013, 10:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Guys this is a lot of help. I guess in wall is the way to go on this.

How far apart from the tv the lcr speakers should be?
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post #5 of 14 Old 03-20-2013, 04:56 AM
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Thanks Guys this is a lot of help. I guess in wall is the way to go on this.

How far apart from the tv the lcr speakers should be?

If you are setting up along the 18ft wall, then 8 ft, L/R center/center. That provides a good soundstage leaving about 5 ft to the sides. Which is what I had in a room of similar width.

If you do go with the JBL P941, you either use one of those for a center, or a horizontal center.
Depends on the size of your screen and how high you have it placed. JBL does have in-wall centers, but a vertical speaker is still best.
Or you could use a JBL on-wall center placed just below the screen. I say this cos the only JBL in-wall center I found was a straight MTM. Whereas the on-wall centers have the tweeter/midrange stacked vertically.



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post #6 of 14 Old 03-20-2013, 07:18 AM
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Is it worth the investment to get a pair of B&W CCM663 ceiling speakers? So, to be more exact with set up, couch is 13.5 feet away from TV ( far wall) sitting on a large stand with the CM 5's sitting on the sides of the TV. the center is in the stand. My ceiling is 9 feet high. I am worried about those ceiling speakers "drowning" out my CM 5's. In other words, it just sounding weird because of the set up. What I have now is fine, but like everyone else I am always trying to Find the best set up for the room I have. So, just wondering if installing the speakers would give me that "surround" feeling. Thanks for all your help
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post #7 of 14 Old 03-20-2013, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by ray16kv View Post

Is it worth the investment to get a pair of B&W CCM663 ceiling speakers? So, to be more exact with set up, couch is 13.5 feet away from TV ( far wall) sitting on a large stand with the CM 5's sitting on the sides of the TV. the center is in the stand. My ceiling is 9 feet high. I am worried about those ceiling speakers "drowning" out my CM 5's. In other words, it just sounding weird because of the set up. What I have now is fine, but like everyone else I am always trying to Find the best set up for the room I have. So, just wondering if installing the speakers would give me that "surround" feeling. Thanks for all your help

Why are you using both the CCM663s and the CM5s?
My thoughts on in-ceiling speakers, no matter what the brand, or if they have adjustable tweeters, every one I have heard sounds like you're listening to something from outer space. Most certainly when used for LCRs.
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post #8 of 14 Old 03-20-2013, 09:34 AM
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Using the CM5's because they fit next to the TV. No room for towers. Plus with the center and sub, it is enough power. Just thinking if I really need to add the ceiling speakers for that extra surround
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post #9 of 14 Old 03-20-2013, 09:50 AM
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How far apart from the tv the lcr speakers should be?

If you are setting up along the 18ft wall, then 8 ft, L/R center/center. That provides a good soundstage leaving about 5 ft to the sides. Which is what I had in a room of similar width.

That sounds good to me--just about perfect, in fact, once all of the factors are considered (as they will be below). To make sure it's clear, that's 8' apart for the left & right, measured from the centerline of one speaker to the centerline of the other. The center speaker should be right between them in the very middle, of course, and oriented vertically like the left & right speakers if possible. Work around the internal structure of the wall as best you can--nothing has to be all that precise.
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If you do go with the JBL P941, you either use one of those for a center, or a horizontal center.
Depends on the size of your screen and how high you have it placed. JBL does have in-wall centers, but a vertical speaker is still best.

To elaborate without going into too much detail, a vertically-oriented speaker changes in sound very little as you move to its sides horizontally (the same is usually not true in the vertical direction), which is good for viewers who are sitting on either side of the very center, and is precisely why speakers are typically vertically-oriented. The same principle holds true for the center speaker, and in general it is imperative that movie dialogue, the vast majority of which is reproduced by the center speaker, be as readily intelligible as possible. Many people have to compromise with a horizontally-oriented center speaker for various reasons, and it can work alright and is better than using no center speaker at all, but it would still be even better to use a vertically-oriented center if you can. If you can't, however, then don't worry about it--it's an optimization for sound quality, but plenty of people manage fine without it.

Now, as for the distance from the primary seats to the screen, with regard to speaker placement, somewhere around 9.5' (measured from the front wall to the ears of the viewers) is where you would get a nice 45 degree spread between the left & right front speakers, which is considered by many to be ideal for home theater. As luck would have it, this would be just about the right distance from the back walls to justify the use of back surrounds, and would also place the side surrounds at a nice angle, somewhere around 15 degrees behind and to the sides, so this distance would be my recommendation. Feel free to experiment and do whatever you think sounds (or looks, in terms of viewing the screen) best to you, though (it's your home theater)--I'm just describing the "proper" way to set things up in order to come as close as possible to how movie soundtracks are intended to be experienced, that's all. wink.gif
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post #10 of 14 Old 03-20-2013, 12:34 PM
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To elaborate without going into too much detail, a vertically-oriented speaker changes in sound very little as you move to its sides horizontally (the same is usually not true in the vertical direction), which is good for viewers who are sitting on either side of the very center, and is precisely why speakers are typically vertically-oriented. The same principle holds true for the center speaker, and in general it is imperative that movie dialogue, the vast majority of which is reproduced by the center speaker, be as readily intelligible as possible. Many people have to compromise with a horizontally-oriented center speaker for various reasons, and it can work alright and is better than using no center speaker at all, but it would still be even better to use a vertically-oriented center if you can. If you can't, however, then don't worry about it--it's an optimization for sound quality, but plenty of people manage fine without it.

Wrong. If you take a straight MTM speaker and place it vertically its good...but as soon as you turn it horizontally you screw up the sound (except for the person sitting right dead center). Anyone sitting off to the left/right will get a smeared sound and the dialogue will not be very distinctive.
Which is the reason many speaker companies started making horizontal centers with the tweeter/midrange stacked vertically...to improve the off axis dialogue output.

If on the other hand, a MTM has the tweeter offset so its not on the dual M centerline, and then placed horizontally is then going to place the tweeter above the M-M centerline. That works.
And any vertical 3-way, like the P941, never wants to be on its side.
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post #11 of 14 Old 03-20-2013, 01:24 PM
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a vertically-oriented speaker changes in sound very little as you move to its sides horizontally (the same is usually not true in the vertical direction)

Wrong. If you take a straight MTM speaker and place it vertically its good...but as soon as you turn it horizontally you screw up the sound (except for the person sitting right dead center).

I meant as you move to the sides of the speaker horizontally, not when you turn the speaker 90 degrees onto its side! eek.gif
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Anyone sitting off to the left/right will get a smeared sound and the dialogue will not be very distinctive.
Which is the reason many speaker companies started making horizontal centers with the tweeter/midrange stacked vertically...to improve the off axis dialogue output.

I know that--I've only practically been on a mission for years now, spreading the "gospel" about the advantages of vertically-oriented centers. wink.gif
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If on the other hand, a MTM has the tweeter offset so its not on the dual M centerline, and then placed horizontally is then going to place the tweeter above the M-M centerline. That works.
And any vertical 3-way, like the P941, never wants to be on its side.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1462882/wtmw-comb-filtering/0_100#post_23072722

Sorry about the misunderstanding here--poor wording on my part. redface.gif Note that I did say the following immediately before: "The center speaker should be right between them in the very middle, of course, and oriented vertically like the left & right speakers if possible."
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post #12 of 14 Old 03-23-2013, 08:12 AM - Thread Starter
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this is been really helpfull guys...

what about the reciever, is better to have it hidding in a closet or right where the tv is? or is just personal preference..?
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post #13 of 14 Old 03-23-2013, 10:34 AM
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what about the reciever, is better to have it hidding in a closet or right where the tv is? or is just personal preference..?

It's purely a matter of personal preference. I place mine in my TV stand because I don't mind it being visible, I find its built-in display convenient at times, and I can use the remote control directly, while others prefer to have a very clean, polished-looking home theater and are willing to go through the trouble and some expense to conceal their electronic components, and that's perfectly understandable, too.
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post #14 of 14 Old 03-23-2013, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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is there a store where they sell furniture for tv stands kind of special to put a receiver and connections?
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