New Official Axiom Audio Speaker Owners Thread - Page 3 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 488 Old 03-31-2013, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Dumb it down a little more for me - what is lobing? Feel free to use a real world example of what it is like even if that example is not actually lobing (like using the compression of sound waves to explain Doppler shift of light).
Look at the chart I posted. The green line is a single lobe. That's an ideal radiation pattern. The blue line at 15846Hz is eleven lobes, an abominable pattern. The rest of the frequencies are in between the two extremes. If you're sitting inside the lobe you hear that frequency at the same level as you do the 1kHz of the single green lobe. If not, you don't.

As to the value of charts, if you know how to read them, you can tell how a speaker sounds without having to hear it. It's just like being able to read music and know how a song sounds without having heard it, or read a book and know what the words say without someone else having to speak them.

They're also invaluable where fine tuning a system is concerned, as not even the most golden eared audiophile has the ability to hear even 10% of what gear can measure. Getting that other 90% right makes the difference between OK, pretty good, damn good and simply stunning. If you don't care about having more than an OK system by all means don't sweat the measurements. But if you want better than that having the ability to make use of measurements isn't an option, it's a necessity, and one of the first things you do is to use the measurements to tell you if a speaker is capable of more than just OK, or if no amount of system adjustment will ever get any more than that.

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post #62 of 488 Old 03-31-2013, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Look at the chart I posted. The green line is a single lobe. That's an ideal radiation pattern. The blue line at 15846Hz is eleven lobes, an abominable pattern. The rest of the frequencies are in between the two extremes.

As to the value of charts, if you know how to read them, you can tell how a speaker sounds without having to hear it. It's just like being able to read music and know how a song sounds without having heard it, or read a book and know what the words say without someone else having to speak them.

They're also invaluable where fine tuning a system is concerned, as not even the most golden eared audiophile has the ability to hear even 10% of what gear can measure. Getting that other 90% right makes the difference between OK, pretty good, damn good and simply stunning. If you don't care about having more than an OK system by all means don't sweat the measurements. But if you want better than that having the ability to make use of measurements isn't an option, it's a necessity, and one of the first things you do is to use the measurements to tell you if a speaker is capable of more than just OK, or if no amount of system adjustment will ever get any more than that.

HI Bill, I love the charts and with proper explanation they are quite helpful. I have seen these types of charts while combing the web trying to learn all I can. Few if any speaker manufacturer's offer these charts and to most people are completely useless. I really believe most people just want to trust(useless) specs like power handling etc and their ears when buying speakers (think bestbuy lol).

Don't take this the wrong way but I still don't think anyone can tell how a speaker sounds from charts, especially considering the effect a room has on said speaker. I think given the right intellect and a complete understanding of the charts they can be helpful.Honestly though, I don't need to know how to read music to enjoy it.

Quick question , if a golden ear cant hear what the gear can hear, why Is it important?
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post #63 of 488 Old 03-31-2013, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Socketman View Post

The only thing I really read I don't agree with is that someone can tell how a speaker will sound to my ears in my house with my furniture simply by looking at a graph.
Agreed. But I know how it will sound to my ears. Of course said graph would have to be an in-room response chart, but yes, I can do that. Any experienced acoustical engineer can. It's what we do.
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if a golden ear cant hear what the gear can hear, why Is it important?
He can hear it, he just can't sit down with paper and pencil and accurately quantify what he's hearing. But don't tell an oddiophool that, they think they can not only hear a hummingbird fart at 200 yards but they'll also tell you what color it is by the pitch.

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post #64 of 488 Old 03-31-2013, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Off axis charts won't be pretty, but even they only scratch the surface of the issue. What really shows the problem is polar charts. This chart overlays a number of polar charts at different frequencies. Each line shows the region where SPL is equal across the sound field.



In this case the two tweeters are about a foot apart center to center. That's close enough for them to act as a single source at 1kHz, and there the green line shows a nice single lobe, with uniform response across the sound field. But at each successively higher measuring point the number of lobes increases, and the uniformity of response across the sound field progressively deteriorates. And this is with the tweeters spaced a foot apart CTC. The wider the spacing, the worse the result.
Also note that on-axis there's an on-axis lobe at every frequency. If viewing an on-axis chart only one would never suspect how bad the full picture really is.


At what point do the two tweeter cease to act as one. I often see bookshelf speakers placed quite close together. I see this talked about a lot but I still cant quite see why it is such a concern. Flanging(comb filtering) is done on music during mastering, reflections from the room also cause comb filtering.
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post #65 of 488 Old 03-31-2013, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Agreed. But I know how it will sound to my ears. Of course said graph would have to be an in-room response chart, but yes, I can do that. Any experienced acoustical engineer can. It's what we do.
He can hear it, he just can't sit down with paper and pencil and accurately quantify what he's hearing. But don't tell an oddiophool that, they think they can not only hear a hummingbird fart at 200 yards but they'll also tell you what color it is by the pitch.

I am no acoustical engineer so that leaves me out, but I will continue to learn. Is that room a specially treated room, or your personal listening room.
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post #66 of 488 Old 03-31-2013, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Socketman View Post

At what point do the two tweeter cease to act as one.
When their center to center distance exceeds one wavelength. That's not a hard requirement at the lower end of the spectrum, one wavelength being 4.5 inches at 3500Hz. But it's near impossible an octave higher at 7kHz, where a wavelength is 2.25 inches. And that's why well designed speakers that have to use more than one tweeter for adequate output always have them vertically stacked and placed as tight as possible, so any combing occurs on the vertical axis where it's less noticeable. Also, even within the bandwidth where the two tweeters do fully couple the dispersion angle on the plane of their placement is halved compared to one. Halving the dispersion angle on the vertical plane is less problematic than on the horizontal plane. It can even be a plus, reducing early reflections off the floor and ceiling.
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Is that room a specially treated room, or your personal listening room.
Any room, that's why I specified an in-room chart. Some rooms have problems that would make any speaker sound bad, but that would show up on an in-room chart as well, telling you what you need to fix before you can get a good sound.

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post #67 of 488 Old 03-31-2013, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

When their center to center distance exceeds one wavelength. That's not a hard requirement at the lower end of the spectrum, one wavelength being 4.5 inches at 3500Hz. But it's near impossible an octave higher at 7kHz, where a wavelength is 2.25 inches. And that's why well designed speakers that have to use more than one tweeter for adequate output always have them vertically stacked and placed as tight as possible, so any combing occurs on the vertical axis where it's less noticeable. Also, even within the bandwidth where the two tweeters do fully couple the dispersion angle on the plane of their placement is halved compared to one. Halving the dispersion angle on the vertical plane is less problematic than on the horizontal plane. It can even be a plus, reducing early reflections off the floor and ceiling.
Any room, that's why I specified an in-room chart. Some rooms have problems that would make any speaker sound bad, but that would show up on an in-room chart as well, telling you what you need to fix before you can get a good sound.


Ok so how do you know if it is the room that's contributing to the poor response or the speaker.

Since this is an axiom thread I will use the M80 as an example, why the hate for the two vertical tweets,are they not close enough together?
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post #68 of 488 Old 03-31-2013, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Socketman View Post

Ok so how do you know if it is the room that's contributing to the poor response or the speaker.

Since this is an axiom thread I will use the M80 as an example, why the hate for the two vertical tweets,are they not close enough together?
I'd look at the anechoic response versus the in-room, and what's different between the two is the room contribution. The M80 doesn't look all that bad, though having the tweeters frame to frame would be better. But better still would be using tweeters that allow very tight placement, like these:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-1024

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post #69 of 488 Old 03-31-2013, 02:58 PM
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I have used axiom drivers for speaker builds, it would be easy to trim some off the frame I believe without negative effect to get them closer together. I agree that the center channels really don't seem right with the tweeter placement ,but I digress , I have not heard them so have no hands on experience. Thanks for sharing your knowledge, many times ego gets in the way but not this time,thanks
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post #70 of 488 Old 03-31-2013, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Look at the chart I posted. The green line is a single lobe. That's an ideal radiation pattern. The blue line at 15846Hz is eleven lobes, an abominable pattern. The rest of the frequencies are in between the two extremes. If you're sitting inside the lobe you hear that frequency at the same level as you do the 1kHz of the single green lobe. If not, you don't.

Ok, lets see if I understand what you are saying:

The green line is what we should hear. The other lines are what is actually happening. If we are sitting in an area where they match, then all is good. If we are not, then all is not good. What I do not understand is what is not good about it. If I was sitting in a bad area, what would happen to the sound?
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post #71 of 488 Old 03-31-2013, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

they think they can not only hear a hummingbird fart at 200 yards but they'll also tell you what color it is by the pitch.

Ok, this has to be the funniest post of the day. smile.gif
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post #72 of 488 Old 03-31-2013, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

When their center to center distance exceeds one wavelength. That's not a hard requirement at the lower end of the spectrum, one wavelength being 4.5 inches at 3500Hz. But it's near impossible an octave higher at 7kHz, where a wavelength is 2.25 inches. And that's why well designed speakers that have to use more than one tweeter for adequate output always have them vertically stacked and placed as tight as possible, so any combing occurs on the vertical axis where it's less noticeable. Also, even within the bandwidth where the two tweeters do fully couple the dispersion angle on the plane of their placement is halved compared to one. Halving the dispersion angle on the vertical plane is less problematic than on the horizontal plane. It can even be a plus, reducing early reflections off the floor and ceiling.

AH! Now that makes sense. When they want to increase the tweeter number (for whatever reason they determine), they put them vertically which is almost never an issue. I actually understand that. smile.gif
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post #73 of 488 Old 03-31-2013, 03:58 PM
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Cyber, check out comb filtering exaggerated Here to help understand what it is and what it sounds like. I personally have never experience this, at least not on a level that bothered me or was noticeable , at least not that I remember. It has been said that some people actually like a bit of comb filtering and find it adds something .
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post #74 of 488 Old 03-31-2013, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Socketman View Post

I personally have never experience this, at least not on a level that bothered me or was noticeable , at least not that I remember. It has been said that some people actually like a bit of comb filtering and find it adds something .

My experience with the VP150 and comb filtering was voices became stuffed up sounding and at one point I had the M22s at -2 on the receiver and the CC VP150 was set to +6 to the point that the woofers would make a ringing shrill noise from dynamic peaks from yelling voices or something.
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post #75 of 488 Old 03-31-2013, 04:45 PM
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GT I own a vp100 which works great in my bedroom setup, and my home built center in my living room. Never heard the VP 150, when I first bought my speakers I was cash strapped and opted for Vp100 and bought a sub locally. That is the kind of feedback that would be well received on any forum without any rebuff, it s an honest opinion from personal experience without any bashing.
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post #76 of 488 Old 03-31-2013, 07:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Socketman View Post

Cyber, check out comb filtering exaggerated Here to help understand what it is and what it sounds like. I personally have never experience this, at least not on a level that bothered me or was noticeable , at least not that I remember. It has been said that some people actually like a bit of comb filtering and find it adds something .

Thanks!

To me, it sounds like it "expands" the drum sound. It is definitely different than the original. Actually reminds me of when a friend of mine did not have a center channel and he used a phantom center created by his AVR.
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post #77 of 488 Old 04-01-2013, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Logical fallacy??? Are you freakin' kidding me? Where is the logical fallacy in using objective data, (i.e., data that is unbiased and scientifically acquired), to tune an audio system. Professional audio consultants use objective data all the time to tune audio systems. Anyone who would trivialize such data is a fool, (or an "audiophool.") Your continual insistence that no graph can tell you what to like is so naive that it borders on foolishness. The fact that you've never taken a measurement, and wouldn't know how to interpret one if you did, confirms your naivety. Naivety is curable, but only if you recognize how naive you truly are. If you refuse to admit your own naivety, you'll never move beyond it.
It's clear that your personal experience is more important to you than any objective data, whether you understand that objective data or not. While you are welcome to your personal experience, don't try to portray it as anything more than your personal experience. The mere fact that you prefer a comb-filtered mess of a center channel speaker speaks volumes about the sophistication of your personal experiences. "Like" whatever you want to like. Just don't try to portray it as any thing more than what you "like." On the AV SCIENCE forum, we should be far more concerned with objective, scientific data than with unsophisticated and naive personal preference.

If you want to have an intelligent and unbiased discussion about your comb-filtered mess of a CC, or Axiom's comb-filtered mess of a CC, please post your measurements of those systems. Short of that, you are just spewing your own biased personal preferences. In a discussion of objective data, your biased personal preferences are meaningless to anyone but you.

Craig


I find scientific types such as yourself really rely on graphs and such to much and not enough on your ears. All that is important is what we hear as we listen and to enjoy the experience. I would highly recommend reading the book Sound Reproduction by Floyd E Toole. I have only just begun but already have learned a lot. Here an excerpt that really caught my eye.


Two ears and a brain comprise a powerful acoustical analysis tool,
able to extract enormous resolution, detail, and pleasure from circumstances
that, when subject to mere technical measurements, seem to be disastrous.
Something that in technical terms appears to be impossibly scrambled is perceived
as a splendid musical performance.
Back to the Beginning: Direction and Space


Also I believe I read somewhere in a previous thread that cybrsage is using some level of Audyssey


Richard
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post #78 of 488 Old 04-01-2013, 09:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Socketman View Post

I find scientific types such as yourself really rely on graphs and such to much and not enough on your ears. All that is important is what we hear as we listen and to enjoy the experience. I would highly recommend reading the book Sound Reproduction by Floyd E Toole. I have only just begun but already have learned a lot. Here an excerpt that really caught my eye.


Two ears and a brain comprise a powerful acoustical analysis tool,
able to extract enormous resolution, detail, and pleasure from circumstances
that, when subject to mere technical measurements, seem to be disastrous.
Something that in technical terms appears to be impossibly scrambled is perceived
as a splendid musical performance.
Back to the Beginning: Direction and Space

Very nice, and that is exactly what I am saying, only Mr. Toole says it in a far superior way. I wonder if he is important enough for anyone to bother listening to him, though. Nah, he basically says personal experience is the most important thing, so he must be a hack. wink.gif

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Also I believe I read somewhere in a previous thread that cybrsage is using some level of Audyssey


Richard

Yep, I update the firmware on the AVR first (I have first reflection point absorption panels already installed), then make sure the room is quiet and the cat is locked away someplace else, then I run Audyssey XT32 with dual subwoofer calibration. Greatly improves my enjoyment of the sound. I then bump up the dB of the rears and sides a bit because I like them to be more pronounced...that makes me happier, which is what this is all about. smile.gif
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post #79 of 488 Old 04-01-2013, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

He's actually quite right. Dispersion issues aside, and they are major, when horizontally placed drivers are spaced more than 1 wavelength apart center to center there will be comb filtering. At 10kHz one wavelength is 1.3 inches, so for all intents and purposes it's impossible not to have comb filtering with horizontally placed tweeters. But at 10kHz you can live with it. However, the crossover to the tweeters of the VP180 is 2.7kHz. 1 wavelength at 2.7kHz is 5 inches, which means the VP180 tweeters are severely comb filtering throughout their entire pass band. It would be audible even with a six inch shift in the listening position.

so when axiom designed the vp-180, would the design goal have been "better" sound at the listening position at the expense of off axis response?
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post #80 of 488 Old 04-02-2013, 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Logical fallacy??? Are you freakin' kidding me? Where is the logical fallacy in using objective data, (i.e., data that is unbiased and scientifically acquired), to tune an audio system. Professional audio consultants use objective data all the time to tune audio systems. Anyone who would trivialize such data is a fool, (or an "audiophool.") Your continual insistence that no graph can tell you what to like is so naive that it borders on foolishness. The fact that you've never taken a measurement, and wouldn't know how to interpret one if you did, confirms your naivety. Naivety is curable, but only if you recognize how naive you truly are. If you refuse to admit your own naivety, you'll never move beyond it.
It's clear that your personal experience is more important to you than any objective data, whether you understand that objective data or not. While you are welcome to your personal experience, don't try to portray it as anything more than your personal experience. The mere fact that you prefer a comb-filtered mess of a center channel speaker speaks volumes about the sophistication of your personal experiences. "Like" whatever you want to like. Just don't try to portray it as any thing more than what you "like." On the AV SCIENCE forum, we should be far more concerned with objective, scientific data than with unsophisticated and naive personal preference.

If you want to have an intelligent and unbiased discussion about your comb-filtered mess of a CC, or Axiom's comb-filtered mess of a CC, please post your measurements of those systems. Short of that, you are just spewing your own biased personal preferences. In a discussion of objective data, your biased personal preferences are meaningless to anyone but you.

Craig

Don't waste your time...
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...especially in light that almost no one makes on-walls any more.
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post #81 of 488 Old 04-02-2013, 07:22 AM
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Bill - I don't know if you care at all, but it is nice having an engineer post within these threads!
Thanks. But I'm out of this one now, having said what needed to be said. Just state the facts and get out, there's no point in trying to teach those who aren't interested in learning.

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post #82 of 488 Old 04-02-2013, 07:59 AM
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I don't know why anyone would dismiss measurements so quickly. Like Craig said earlier, measurements are essential in fine tuning your system and, my personal experience with measurements and EQ lead me to believe they are essential in improving what you have. Like Craig's example earlier, I had a large bass bump in my room and the midrange bass was overpowering other notes. Without measurements and EQ, I could not have tamed that bump and the before and after difference using measurements and EQ was dramatic to me. EQ is not enough. You need to measure response in your room and even moving speakers 6-12" in your room can result in differences in response.

As for Axiom, I would simply tell people to do their research. Some of their speaker designs are less conventional and, as Bill has clearly explained, go against what a skilled audio engineer would design since those unconventional designs result in issues. The good news is that Axiom offers lots of designs and choice, so if you are deadset on buying Axiom they do offer speakers that have a more ideal design.
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post #83 of 488 Old 04-02-2013, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't know why anyone would dismiss measurements so quickly. Like Craig said earlier, measurements are essential in fine tuning your system and, my personal experience with measurements and EQ lead me to believe they are essential in improving what you have. Like Craig's example earlier, I had a large bass bump in my room and the midrange bass was overpowering other notes. Without measurements and EQ, I could not have tamed that bump and the before and after difference using measurements and EQ was dramatic to me. EQ is not enough. You need to measure response in your room and even moving speakers 6-12" in your room can result in differences in response.

Exactly right. You used the measurements to make the system sound better. You found a problem, changed things, and it sounded better. This is a great use for them. A bad use is to make the sound worse via the use of measurements. If your changes made the sound worse, you would have reversed the changes, yes? Basically, it is the exact reason why some people turn off Audyssey. They run the system without it, run Aussysey correction, then listen after it is engaged. If it sounds better (most people say it does), they keep it on. However, if it sounds worse, only a fool would keep it on.
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As for Axiom, I would simply tell people to do their research. Some of their speaker designs are less conventional and, as Bill has clearly explained, go against what a skilled audio engineer would design since those unconventional designs result in issues. The good news is that Axiom offers lots of designs and choice, so if you are deadset on buying Axiom they do offer speakers that have a more ideal design.

Quite right. They make great on-walls for the price, such as the M3, M2, and M0. Most speaker companies makes some speakers that are not worth their price.
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post #84 of 488 Old 04-02-2013, 10:39 AM
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I've got truly mint condition M60's, a VP150 and QS8's for sale in the Knoxville, TN area-All are Boston cherry.
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post #85 of 488 Old 04-02-2013, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Have you tried contacting Axiom and seeing about selling them through the auction house they run?
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post #86 of 488 Old 04-02-2013, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Have you tried contacting Axiom and seeing about selling them through the auction house they run?

I'm not sure how the Acution works but it may not work in the way you suggest....if your considering an upgrade with your Axiom they'll assit you...otherwise....you know.

Ps: I'm not entirly sure on the process but it wouldn't hurt to ask or wait & see if one of the more knowledgeable members from Axiom chimes in...

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post #87 of 488 Old 04-02-2013, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Exactly right. You used the measurements to make the system sound better. You found a problem, changed things, and it sounded better. This is a great use for them. A bad use is to make the sound worse via the use of measurements. If your changes made the sound worse, you would have reversed the changes, yes?

You also use measurements to determine if the speaker is good or bad. In some examples you can tell whether its a bad sounding speaker or not. Like the VP150 has a -10db drop off at 1500hrz 20degrees off axis. If I have listening areas 10+ degrees off axis that its gonna be a bad speaker. If I see a speaker with a 5db midbass hump, I will know that it will be annoying and bloated/boomy bass. Eventually your gonna have to listen but you can get a damn good picture before hand. Thats not to say I'm going to judge 100% on a graph online, but I can weed out the lower quality speakers with issues. Like the examples I mentioned and there many more. Well designed speakers are much harder to judge by measurements and listening is going to be the final decision on whats better or worst.
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post #88 of 488 Old 04-02-2013, 11:20 AM
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I've been reading the Arx thread with interest & am learning a lot about ribbon tweeters (of which I'm totally ignorant) that are used in those fine units.

I didn't know that those type of drivers had a somewhat narrow dispersion characteristics as contrasted to most domes (most speakers use including Axiom). Evidently this sometimes requires toeing-in and/or tilting the speaker back to establish a good sweet spot to properly take advantage of their fine sound. While this no doubt would work wonderfully for an audio only system, how this would this be implemented in a HT setup where people often sit off axis. Would there be deficits in the sound from the mains for the viewers that didn't win the fight to sit on the sweet spot on axis?

Just wondering since dispersion is being discussed...

TAM
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post #89 of 488 Old 04-02-2013, 12:00 PM
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Did Floyd Toole provide any concrete examples to illustrate his statements?

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post #90 of 488 Old 04-02-2013, 12:51 PM
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