New Official Axiom Audio Speaker Owners Thread - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 460 Old 04-05-2013, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Good, you removed your claim about a "$4000 LCR speaker". That is what I challenged, since it was not correct. Even the Omnis you just linked are only $1850 each, a far cry from $4000.
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Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

The Axiom LFR at almost $4,000

You misread what I posted I didn't say LCR I said LFR (linear field radiator) or something like that. And I didn't say $4000 I said almost $4000. LFR1100s are $3760 a pair. Which is almost $4000.

As a disclaimer Dale Rasco received/receives discounts for Axiom stuff. Axiom sent him a brand new Epic 80-800 and he gave it a great review and decided to keep them and Axiom gave his a discount. I view that as a conflict of interest. If Audioholics/Gene, Sound and Vision Brent or any of the others did that people would be crying foul.

Axiom also sent him those LFRs for review and then he bought them.

"I like the EP800, but I would not have paid MSRP for it. I agree with Chad that at the MSRP I would look at a Seaton Submersive, SVS or the Chase if you have the space and funds"

Read more: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-audio-speakers/56819-axiom-grand-master-5-2-home-theater-system-discussion-thread-2.html#ixzz2Pbksx1fs


"The Axiom Epic 80 7.1 with the EP800 is absolutely the best sounding set of speakers I have heard in its price range. These aren’t boutique level, but more of an audiophile quality workhorse. Not a Ferrari, but easily a Corvette Z06. I have no qualms about recommending this very setup, and have

Read more: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/speaker-subwoofer-reviews/45768-axiom-epic-80-speaker-review.html#ixzz2PblJYwmu
"

Here recommends it but would not pay full MSRP???? rolleyes.gif If he feels its not worth the MSRP he needs to say so in his review and say something like "Its a great sounding system blah blah but at the current MSRP I feel there might be just alittle better options for the price"
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post #122 of 460 Old 04-05-2013, 10:50 AM
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At least he was upfront about it which adds to his credibility & integrity IMHO. It is highly doubtful that he would have purchased them if he didn't like them - discount or not.

I certainly wouldn't buy & keep something that I didn't like regardless of what kind of great deal it was. It's only common sense...

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post #123 of 460 Old 04-05-2013, 10:58 AM
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You would have to comb through the forum to find that he doesn't think its worth its full asking price. Nothing about it in the review. Axiom guys cried foul with Gene and EMP speaker and thats part of the reason Ian backed out of Audioholics. But its ok for Dale to take discounts and give positive reviews on the products the same company gave him the discount on? It was a brand new set and its the same as what everyone else buys, it he won't pay full MSRP like everyone else or thinks its not worth the full price than it should have been stated clear as day in the review.

Its not uncommon to see a reviewer praise a product as great performing blah blah but then say at its price I feel there might be better options out there.

I'm skeptical of all his reviews. If he only considers Axiom a great set if he can get a discount than why should his reviews be trusted?
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post #124 of 460 Old 04-05-2013, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post


You misread what I posted I didn't say LCR I said LFR (linear field radiator) or something like that. And I didn't say $4000 I said almost $4000. LFR1100s are $3760 a pair. Which is almost $4000.

LFR then...and it is not almost $4000 for a LFT, it is almost $4000 for TWO of them.

Does anyone pay full MSRP for anything?
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post #125 of 460 Old 04-05-2013, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

LFR then...and it is not almost $4000 for a LFT, it is almost $4000 for TWO of them.

Does anyone pay full MSRP for anything?

You can't buy them separate only in pairs so why would I list the price as a single. Just about every speaker we discuss on the forums is priced per pair its not some new idea. Yes they are almost $4k a pr and thats exactly what i've said. Now your twisting it around one minute pairs then singles then almost and exact and then almost and not quite and then singles and then LCR and then LFT and then LFR and then and then and then.

You missed the whole point of the post I made. They are exactly $3760 per pr and they are mirrored pairs so you cant buy one. For that price and for being the companies "flagship" model it should be of higher quality, its a low volume "halo" product and its something you should put every little bit of effort into and show it off as a work of art and a great sounding speaker at a great price. You don't make a "halo" show piece using the lowest quality parts from you bread and butter basic line. And you don't make a more expensive speaker than similar competition that not only undercuts you in price but does so using top notch "top shelf" components, and finishes.

Yes, except Dale did not pay the same price that everyone else gets it for. Are you saying that the M22s are listed at $518 a pr that you can get them cheaper, not counting B-stock or damaged. So I can call Ian and he'll give me a discount on M22s that no one else gets?

When I bought the VP150 is what listed at $407 and thats exactly what I paid. Same with the M22s, M2s, Arx A5, A1, SVS subwoofers ect.....
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post #126 of 460 Old 04-05-2013, 11:51 AM
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Again, he wouldn't have them in his house if he didn't like them. Either would I & most others.

Despite providing space on his site for a nice Arx review (of which he most likely fully supports or it wouldn't be there), his admonishment of the same stuff that you are doing here is telling.

I can't believe that in an 'Owners' thread like this one, we have to continually justify our sense of value, sense of hearing, what we spend, the aesthetics of our gear, the sound signature that we prefer, etc, etc. to anyone. Yet it goes on & on like it has for over a year.

Is this continually happening anywhere else?

TAM
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post #127 of 460 Old 04-05-2013, 12:02 PM
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Dale is just a mod at HTS, he has no say in what gets posted and what doesn't, he doesn't decide what products get reviewed, who buys "company forums" who advertises or anything. Sonnie is the owner and its his website and he is the one doing the give away of products for people who stay active over there. Jim Wilson is the one who did the Arx review.

I don't care if he like them or not. Its like Car and Driver giving a (what ever brand) a great glowing review and then saying in their forum that they probably would not buy it at it current price but if given a discount they would. It would be nice for people to know IN THE REVIEW that Dale doesn't think the EP800 is worth the asking price. He should have said its a great system and for Axiom guys and those that just have to have a matching system go for it. But at the EP800 price, "I think there might be some better performing options out there". Maybe Axiom would see that as they have the EP800 priced too high and that they need to rethink their price stragety.

If he loves those speakers GREAT! thats not the point, its he is giving them recommendation, when he said he won't have paid the asking price. But he didn't post that in his review he buried it in a forum and would never had said anything about it.

I would not have posted in this had Chu not mentioned me by name "GT" and had what I posted in response to his post not be twisted around into a priced per pair/single blah blah your wrong blah they are not x price cause a single costs blah and you said lcr or something and blah. I'm done with this thread. I'll stay out of the Axiom thread, theres nothing more to say and this ******** will just keep going so theres not point in wasting time with it any more.

So you guys can ignore everything I've said and get on with discussing how much you like Axioms.
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post #128 of 460 Old 04-05-2013, 01:39 PM
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Industry accommodations with reviewers is nothing new but there has been more disclosure compared to years ago. These accommodations can range from reduced pricing to freebies and typically come with conditions such that the product may not be resold until a certain period of time has passed. As to why Rasco took them up, who knows. Whenever reviewers subsequently obtain the product at reduced pricing, it's only reasonable that doubts are raised. That's why it's important to know the review policy of the organization and to see if the reviewer's comments align with your own experiences.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #129 of 460 Old 04-05-2013, 01:40 PM
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Dale says that he got the standard Axiom discount that any one gets if you buy a package ,I believe its 10%. Now on top of that he did get a discount because Axiom is a sponsor. Axiom may have added a discount in liue of having to ship everything back. I would like to think that dale would not buy something solely based on price alone. In the thread linked above , he says he has 2 sets, one in the living room which his wife insisted he buy because she liked them so much and the setup he has which he calls the the temple of boom.Regardless of price, the living set was a done deal, I think the extra discount is probly a bonus. Most anywhere I have ever worked I got a discount on products because I worked their, I see nothing wrong with it.

Excerpt from Dales post -"I got a good deal on them, they normally have an initial discount off of MSRP and I think that since they are a sponsor they give additional discount to forum staff. "




I get asked regularly , what is such and such a car worth. My reply is , it depends on who is buying it. If a car is for sale at a great price, im still not buying it, why because I don't like it. Where I live people will pay a lot extra for a used Subaru, I wouldn't buy one at any price, personal preference.. So maybe dale wasn't ecstatic about the ep 800 at the msrp that's fine,its an individual choice,plenty of others have bought them without regrets.
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post #130 of 460 Old 04-05-2013, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

That part does not address his previous quote. His quote is reposted here:
He says the graphs and charts said what he was hearing was a disaster yet his ears said it was splendid. This is saying that the ears are what is important, not a chart or graph (else what is the purpose of the quote at all?). If the chart of graph says you must dislike what your ears say you like you should follow what your ears tell you.
That conclusion doesn't follow. The problem is that the wondrous discriminatory powers of ears+mind are as good at hearing things that aren't there as hearing things that are.

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post #131 of 460 Old 04-05-2013, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Nowhere in that does he say anything along the lines of "if something sounds good to a person is all that matters". Quite the opposite, in fact. He consistently says that if it measures good it will sound good, and that if it measures bad it will sound bad as well.

Thank you, Bill.
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post #132 of 460 Old 04-05-2013, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

That part does not address his previous quote.
He says the graphs and charts said what he was hearing was a disaster yet his ears said it was splendid. This is saying that the ears are what is important, not a chart or graph (else what is the purpose of the quote at all?). If the chart of graph says you must dislike what your ears say you like you should follow what your ears tell you. You are free to follow the graph instead of your ears and make the sound worse to your ears but I am not going to do such a thing. I will continue to enjoy the splendid musical performance.

"When we combine the subjective with the objective data, it is clear
that the loudspeakers that yielded the best set of technical data, also
were preferred by the listeners."

"The results are monotonously the same. Loudspeakers that look good
in the spin-o-rama measurements are the ones that are subjectively
preferred."

Quotes are from HIS white paper:

http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Documents/White%20Papers/LoudspeakersandRoomsPt2.pdf

You can learn more about him here: http://www.torontoaes.org/Seminar2008/bios/guests/Floyd_Toole.html

You can contact the Audio Engineering Society, Harman International, Paul Barton or any other speaker manufacturer that uses the NRC’s anechoic chamber and ask them if they agree with your interpretation of his research.

http://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20130405/5276.pdf
http://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20130405/5270.pdf
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post #133 of 460 Old 04-05-2013, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Industry accommodations with reviewers is nothing new but there has been more disclosure compared to years ago. These accommodations can range from reduced pricing to freebies and typically come with conditions such that the product may not be resold until a certain period of time has passed. As to why Rasco took them up, who knows. Whenever reviewers subsequently obtain the product at reduced pricing, it's only reasonable that doubts are raised. That's why it's important to know the review policy of the organization and to see if the reviewer's comments align with your own experiences.

Looks like he enjoys the Axioms so much he is looking at selling the VP180 and buying something "warmer" for his home theater smile.gif
Quote:
Speakers:
Here is where I am having some issues. While I love my Axiom LFR1100’s and the VP180 center, I am looking for something that is a bit warmer. I am leaning heavily toward three JTR Triple 8’s, but I have not ruled out a DIY LCR so that they are all identical. I will definitely be keeping the LFR’s and using them for music in a separate listening area and selling the VP180 along with a few other things.

Read more: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-theater-design-construction/65091-temple-boom-redux.html#ixzz2Pd0p9UsS
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post #134 of 460 Old 04-05-2013, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

That part does not address his previous quote. His quote is reposted here:
He says the graphs and charts said what he was hearing was a disaster yet his ears said it was splendid. This is saying that the ears are what is important, not a chart or graph (else what is the purpose of the quote at all?). If the chart of graph says you must dislike what your ears say you like you should follow what your ears tell you. You are free to follow the graph instead of your ears and make the sound worse to your ears but I am not going to do such a thing. I will continue to enjoy the splendid musical performance.
I think you're misinterpreting Toole's writings. In the context of what he's saying, Toole is stating that before we had measurements and looked to correlate it with listening preferences, we were largely ignorant of what factors were responsible for better sound. In the context of that information vacuum, we might find ourselves saying that this or that speaker was great. I'm sure that some indeed were given the state of the art at that time.

In the course of their studies, they subjected some these speakers which were deemed excellent performers (ML comes to mind) and measured them. They then put them up against others, some of which embodied thir general principals, in blind listening tests. When that was done, the speakers which were once deemed to be great came up short. in fact they were largely consistent with their measurements.

Now, one can challenge Harman's findings. They've said that they use a single speaker in their evaluations as this makes rankings easier. Using two speakers makes it more difficult. So what happens when one goes multi channel with 5 or 7 speakers? IMO, other factors likely come into play.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #135 of 460 Old 04-05-2013, 04:01 PM
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Did Rasco hear the JTR's. If not, maybe he's fishing for a review and an industry accommodation! Maybe he ought to measure his room but I'm a bit leery of his general measurrement and interpretation skills.biggrin.gif

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #136 of 460 Old 04-05-2013, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Did Rasco hear the JTR's. If not, maybe he's fishing for a review and an industry accommodation! Maybe he ought to measure his room but I'm a bit leery of his general measurrement and interpretation skills.biggrin.gif

I am assuming he has heard other speakers aside from Axiom, but I am not sure. His review of the LFR1100 speakers is off the charts, and then he states he wants something "warmer" and different for his home theater?

At any rate I have always been a little apprehensive of reviews when the reviewer and the vendor seem to have a relationship. Which is one of the reasons why measurements are nice to have from an independent third party who tests consistenly with a recognized standaRd (like Ricci).
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post #137 of 460 Old 04-05-2013, 04:35 PM
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Yup, a warmer speaker for a room that's not yet finished, furnished, etc.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #138 of 460 Old 04-05-2013, 05:36 PM
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For anyone interested and believe's Dale Rasco somehow was coerced to write a positive review about AXIOM , I will say this, I contacted Dale by PM asked him straight up what the deal was and he said he received the same discount everyone gets when buying a package which is 10% and because he is a HTS Forum member he got 15% additional discount. Anyone who becomes a HTS Forum member is entitled to that discount. . If you read the thread , you will see that his wife was behind the purchase of the in wall/on wall setup. For some reason whenever a positive review is done of an AXIOM setup , certain people here start screaming foul when they have no proof yet they insinuate that the reviewer was coerced .A lot of stuff that's posted should be taken with a grain of salt regarding Axiom products. Axioms Speakers are what they are, you go to their website, you look , you read ,you analyze , if you like what you see you try before you buy,if you don't like whats on offer then you can move on to another brand. If you try them and don't like them you can send it back. I too was leary at first, I decided to buy smaller speakers from axiom in case I didn't like them and would be cheaper to send back. Turns out I like them just fine, and I don't feel I was wronged in any way, they fit the budget I had at the time. I have since added more Axiom's to my repertoire . Now I have lots of different products in my music arsenal , and I like most of them but I don't feel the urge to lurk on every forum for every product I own and pimp them. I have had bad experiences and I bought things I didn't want any longer,they get sold or repurposed, no need to tell the world my woes.

Here are some quotes from a certain member that they posted here about 1 year ago, about his purchase of Axiom Speakers

'I by the way love my Axiom M22s and Vp150';

'I like my VP150 i'm happy with it and no one is going to tell me that is sounds horrible, I evaluate speakers with my ears not a chart or someones option';

'I use the m22's and vp150 and its awesome for movies, although on this forum alot of people do not like Axioms they seem to be universely hated for some reason.' and

'I own an Axiom 5.0 system and I couldn't be happier, very neutral speakers, I replace a pair of Boston Acoustics VR1 towers with the Axiom M22s the M22s blow the Bostons away for sound quality and detail'


Yet this same person seems intent on souring every person on the planet from buying Axiom merely because he see things only one way, his way and no one else can possible be right. Axiom makes a decent product for decent price and suggest to anyone who is curious , that they give them a try. Stamped steel is strong enough for my car, to keep my life safe, I think they are fine for making a speaker.


Edited because I incorrectly stated Dale did not work for HTS. My apologies.
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post #139 of 460 Old 04-05-2013, 06:17 PM
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Below is an excerpt from and article I would like to share from audioholic's website, written by Gene DellaSala, here is the Linky to the article ,which gene encourages people interested in loudspeakers to read. Gene is an electrical engineer and runs Audioholics.

Next time you see someone pop up in the forums declaring a loudspeaker’s superiority because of a frequency graph or a manufacturer’s scientific claims, send them a link to this article and hope it at least gets things churning in their heads to not formulate a final opinion on a product they’ve never heard firsthand themselves. How a loudspeaker plays into a room and how we ultimately perceive that experience is a far more complex topic than we can fully understand and neatly frame with a few measurements and listening tests (sighted or blind).
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post #140 of 460 Old 04-05-2013, 06:33 PM
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A nice 'sale' on Axiom speaker finishes til 30 Apr...

TAM
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post #141 of 460 Old 04-05-2013, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socketman View Post

Below is an excerpt from and article I would like to share from audioholic's website, written by Gene DellaSala, here is the Linky to the article ,which gene encourages people interested in loudspeakers to read. Gene is an electrical engineer and runs Audioholics.

Next time you see someone pop up in the forums declaring a loudspeaker’s superiority because of a frequency graph or a manufacturer’s scientific claims, send them a link to this article and hope it at least gets things churning in their heads to not formulate a final opinion on a product they’ve never heard firsthand themselves. How a loudspeaker plays into a room and how we ultimately perceive that experience is a far more complex topic than we can fully understand and neatly frame with a few measurements and listening tests (sighted or blind).

But the article clearly points out that measurements are useful and can quickly determine if there is a major issue with a speaker design or with a room. I don't think anyone in this thread has argued that measurements are the end all be all, but they are most certainly useful when trying to get the best sound quality from what you have.

Sorry guys, this is AVS. You can't dismiss the science portion of this and pretend it doesn't matter. There are other forums for that.
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post #142 of 460 Old 04-05-2013, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socketman View Post

Below is an excerpt from and article I would like to share from audioholic's website, written by Gene DellaSala, here is the Linky to the article ,which gene encourages people interested in loudspeakers to read. Gene is an electrical engineer and runs Audioholics.

Next time you see someone pop up in the forums declaring a loudspeaker’s superiority because of a frequency graph or a manufacturer’s scientific claims, send them a link to this article and hope it at least gets things churning in their heads to not formulate a final opinion on a product they’ve never heard firsthand themselves. How a loudspeaker plays into a room and how we ultimately perceive that experience is a far more complex topic than we can fully understand and neatly frame with a few measurements and listening tests (sighted or blind).

http://www.axiomaudio.com/NRC biggrin.gif
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post #143 of 460 Old 04-05-2013, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

But the article clearly points out that measurements are useful and can quickly determine if there is a major issue with a speaker design or with a room. I don't think anyone in this thread has argued that measurements are the end all be all, but they are most certainly useful when trying to get the best sound quality from what you have.

Sorry guys, this is AVS. You can't dismiss the science portion of this and pretend it doesn't matter. There are other forums for that.

No one is trying to dismiss science ,just put it in its rightful place, please feel free to read THIS article for more.
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post #144 of 460 Old 04-05-2013, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Badouri View Post

http://www.axiomaudio.com/NRC biggrin.gif

Yeah most of us know who Gene was referring to. that's ok I didn't say gene was perfect ,he too was once smitten with axiom and then had a falling out and felt he must retaliate. In the second article you will read how gene built the best speaker EVER and was a hero, before he started audioholics. He then went on to endorse Axiom and sing their praises,then out of nowhere,had some kind of reversal and then decided he needed to attack ian and his company. But all that does not make his assessments of frequency graphs any less real since he is an electrical engineer.


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post #145 of 460 Old 04-06-2013, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Socketman View Post

Below is an excerpt from and article I would like to share from audioholic's website, written by Gene DellaSala, here is the Linky to the article ,which gene encourages people interested in loudspeakers to read. Gene is an electrical engineer and runs Audioholics.

I remember this article.

From Gene; "In most cases, nobody adheres to strict DBT protocol (where both the listeners and testers are unaware of what they are testing). Instead, they often at best set up a SBT (Single Blind Test) which have their own biases often not disclosed by the testing party."

This description includes Axiom, despite their claims that they do DBT.
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post #146 of 460 Old 04-06-2013, 11:26 AM
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This description includes Axiom, despite their claims that they do DBT.
I bet there are a lot of people interested in this sort of sniping, and luckily for you, you have a whole thread now reserved for that, the Official Axiom thread.

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post #147 of 460 Old 04-06-2013, 12:12 PM
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I bet there are a lot of people interested in this sort of sniping, and luckily for you, you have a whole thread now reserved for that, the Official Axiom thread.

It's not sniping. I am willing to bet that Axiom is far from the last to mis-use the DBT, or what it means, or how you actually apply it.
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post #148 of 460 Old 04-06-2013, 02:15 PM
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It's not sniping. I am willing to bet that Axiom is far from the last to mis-use the DBT, or what it means, or how you actually apply it.

More importantly, is it really necessary? This has been argued ad nauseam ,all over the WWW. I only referred that article to help show a different viewpoint of an engineer , since we seem to revere engineers as holier than thou, yet they cant even agree with each other.
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post #149 of 460 Old 04-07-2013, 10:29 AM
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More importantly, is it really necessary?

I think Gene's article is interesting, and enlightening, even if it is a thinly-veiled criticism of Axiom - it can easily be applied in other cases.
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This has been argued ad nauseam ,all over the WWW.

Well, I wasn't the one to link the article in this thread. smile.gif
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I only referred that article to help show a different viewpoint of an engineer , since we seem to revere engineers as holier than thou, yet they cant even agree with each other.

Point taken. But there's a lot of information within that article.
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post #150 of 460 Old 04-07-2013, 10:58 AM
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There was lots of good info there; however, it was very heavily opinionated as well - although from the outset of the article, he declared that it was. The article, plus the discussion following, did point out the difficulties in assessing speakers both in measurement techniques. In the end after the science it done, the results are still subject to room characteristics & the listeners' ears & preferences. Seems to me that there is a lot of 'similarly good' product out there - it's just up to customers to choose what is right for them at the price point that they want to pay.

I've been in Axiom's anechoic chamber - quietest place I've ever been. Ian ran some sweeps on an M60 in there for us to demo how it all works. The graph was displayed outside on the screen for us all to see & it looked pretty darn flat to me with the expected slope at the left end.

That sophisticated chamber (modeled after NRC's) there is used extensively for research & experimenting & is not intended as a marketing device, although having one does embellish your bragging rights, ha!

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