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-   -   Another 5.1 speaker placement question - Couch against wall (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/1464237-another-5-1-speaker-placement-question-couch-against-wall.html)

raist3001 03-19-2013 06:59 PM

I hope you fine folks can really help me out with a bit of advice.

I've read over so many opinions in regards to a 5.1 speaker placement.

My issue like so many others is that my sectional sits against 2 walls - picture attached



I just purchased a 5.1 set of the Definitive Pro cinema 1000 series. I love the way they sound.

With the new baby on the way I have to sacrifice my TV room and move all my equipment to the living room.

Thus my dilemma.

I was hoping to place a speaker on my night stand which is just about ear level, and then tuck in the corner when not in use (System is for movies only-no TV).
Then mount the other speaker ear level on the side wall. However, the speaker will stick out making an accident easy to happen. And the speaker will be in someones ear who may be sitting in the corner sectional.

Or I can place the speaker 3-4 feet above ear level on the BACK wall on either side of the back sectional.
This is what I am leaning towards as my solution.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance.

Resonate 03-19-2013 07:41 PM

fwiw Denon/Marantz receiver manuals specify the midpoint of a surround speaker being 1' - 2' 2' - 3' above ear level, slightly behind the viewer, and not angled down, which would seem to jibe with mounting them on the back wall.

raist3001 03-19-2013 07:53 PM

Thank you Resonate.

I have a new Denon 2313ci and I just looked in the manual. It indeed shows the surround speakers positioned 2-3 feet above ear level slightly behind the viewer. This will work for me.

Robert Cook 03-19-2013 08:13 PM

In your situation, I'd mount the surrounds on the back wall 2'-3' above ear level, and place them symmetrically on either side of the central viewer--that is, place the left surround as far to the left as you can, leaving a few inches between the left wall and the speaker, and then place the right surround an equal distance to the right of the central viewer. Swivel both speakers inward to point to the central viewer, and experiment with tilting them down, too--those who prefer fidelity in their surrounds will want to tilt them, while others who wish for their surrounds to sound different and less distinct than their front speakers (typically more recessed in the midrange) will not want to tilt them. Personally, I think that the notion of making the surrounds sound less localizable is outmoded and obsolete with today's soundtracks and discrete digital surround formats, but ultimately your own preferences are all that truly matter in your home theater.

By the way, the corner placement of the left surround is going to make it sound a bit different from the right surround, specifically in its bass response, but hopefully room correction (if you use it) can help clean that up. There are always going to be compromises involved with non-ideal home theater layouts. I suppose that you could place the right surround on the right-side wall, but I don't know whether a door would get in the way.

One other thing, if you prefer your surrounds to have high fidelity, then you may wish to rotate them to a primarily horizontal orientation, with the tweeters away from the back wall. Swivel and tilt them like you would a vertically-oriented surround speaker, as described above, except that they're twisted to effectively lay them on their sides. This would provide the widest dispersion and the most even frequency response across the seats in the back (the seats on the side will get a sub-par surround experience no matter what you do anyway). Skip this step if you don't care or have enough to worry about as it is. wink.gif

raist3001 03-20-2013 05:21 AM

Great info Robert. Thank you very much. I am going to install the speakers about 2 feet above ear level angled towards the central viewer.

Now I get to worry about getting the speaker wire in the wall, into the basement and up to the receiver.

ray16kv 03-20-2013 06:16 AM

Is it worth the investment to get a pair of B&W CCM663 ceiling speakers? So, to be more exact with set up, couch is 13.5 feet away from TV ( far wall) sitting on a large stand with the CM 5's sitting on the sides of the TV. the center is in the stand. My ceiling is 9 feet high. I am worried about those ceiling speakers "drowning" out my CM 5's. In other words, it just sounding weird because of the set up. What I have now is fine, but like everyone else I am always trying to Find the best set up for the room I have. So, just wondering if installing the speakers would give me that "surround" feeling. Thanks for all your help

raist3001 03-21-2013 05:51 PM

What is the best set up for my crossovers for my speakers and sub?

Definitive Pro 1000 all around and 1000 sub.

I have my L/R/C and surrounds at 80Hz.

Sub at 120Hz.

My Denon 2313ci lets me control my crossovers for each speaker.

My option is crossover for individual where i can change the crossover range on the speakers (all set to 80)
I also have the option to change form Individual to setting the crossover for the subwoofer which I have at 120Hz.

Then I have an option for Bass
Subwoofer mode is set to LFE
LPF for LFE is set to 120 Hz

Am I missing anything?

Robert Cook 03-22-2013 06:29 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by raist3001 View Post

I have my L/R/C and surrounds at 80Hz.

On the one hand, they have 5.25" woofers, but on the other hand they're pretty small speakers. Their specs say to use an 80 Hz crossover in your AVR, and you could try that initially, but also try 100 Hz (and maybe 90 and 110 as well) to see whether that sounds fuller or just plain better to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by raist3001 View Post

Sub at 120Hz.

If you mean the crossover frequency dial on the rear panel of the sub, then set that as high as it will go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by raist3001 View Post

My Denon 2313ci lets me control my crossovers for each speaker.

My option is crossover for individual where i can change the crossover range on the speakers (all set to 80)
I also have the option to change form Individual to setting the crossover for the subwoofer which I have at 120Hz.

If by the latter you mean the single setting for all of the speakers, then since all of your speakers are identical, go ahead and set this to 80 Hz instead of using the Individual settings. Then experiment with higher frequencies as described above because I suspect that these speakers can't quite be crossed over at 80 Hz (could be wrong, though).
Quote:
Originally Posted by raist3001 View Post

Then I have an option for Bass
Subwoofer mode is set to LFE
LPF for LFE is set to 120 Hz

These are fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by raist3001 View Post

Am I missing anything?

I think we've covered everything as far as bass management is concerned.

raist3001 03-23-2013 07:05 PM

Thank you Robert.

Now for my next dilemma.

My Entertainment center is 76" wide (16' Depth) on a wall 130 inches wide.
I have it centered on this wall. Standing in front of the unit, I have a wall to my left as in the original picture above.

I am 10 feet from my TV (60" Samsung 54 inches wide)

I have read over an over that the distance between the front left and right speakers should be equal to the distance from the center viewer.

If I do this, that places my front speaker 10' apart, 2 feet from the Console and 4 feet high. Ear level.

In this picture you can see where I marked off 2 feet from my console for the left speaker

AppleMark

In this picture you can see where I marked off 2 feet from my console for the right speaker

AppleMark

This photo shows just how far form my archway the right speaker is:

AppleMark

Will this work for my room? Should the speakers be closer than 10 feet wide?

Robert Cook 03-23-2013 09:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by raist3001 View Post

My Entertainment center is 76" wide (16' Depth) on a wall 130 inches wide.
I have it centered on this wall. Standing in front of the unit, I have a wall to my left as in the original picture above.

I am 10 feet from my TV (60" Samsung 54 inches wide)

I have read over an over that the distance between the front left and right speakers should be equal to the distance from the center viewer.

If I do this, that places my front speaker 10' apart, 2 feet from the Console and 4 feet high. Ear level.

Technically the well-known "ideal" placement for a stereo speaker pair is in the shape of an equilateral triangle, with the distance between the two speakers equal to the distance of each speaker to the listener. This works out to there being 60 degrees of separation between the speakers from the listeners' point of view (an order of magnitude greater than with Kevin Bacon wink.gif). In this case, with the speakers even with the screen and the viewer 10' from the screen, the speakers should be separated by about 11.547' or 138.564" (you do not have to be this precise wink.gif) instead of 10'; all of the measurements between the speakers are from the center of one speaker to the center of the other.

That's the theory, but in practice you can do whatever works best for you. For home theater a popular angular separation to shoot for is 45 degrees, so that the action is not as separated from the screen, I suppose, and many people have even less separation due to placement issues and/or a desire to place the speakers even closer to the screen, and usually there aren't any serious issues as long as the system is used primarily for movies, as yours will be. In order to get 45 degrees of separation, for example, your speakers should be about 99.4" apart. Whatever you end up deciding to do, make sure that the speakers are even with the front of the entertainment center or closer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by raist3001 View Post

In this picture you can see where I marked off 2 feet from my console for the left speaker

Are you planning to mount the left & right fronts on the wall? confused.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by raist3001 View Post

Will this work for my room? Should the speakers be closer than 10 feet wide?

In your case, it almost doesn't matter how far apart you place them, as long as you're not committing any unnecessary "sins" with the room acoustics (aside from having the left wall closer, but that's unavoidable). Even right on either side of your TV could provide pleasing results, although there are some who would gag at the thought of the soundstage being that narrow. As far as I'm concerned, however, your focus is on the action on the screen, so it doesn't necessarily make sense to have your speakers separated by a MUCH greater angle (unless two-channel music is important). My own left & right front speakers, due to placement issues, are only separated by 20 degrees eek.gif (not much wider than my TV), and this works just fine for home theater. In fact, I listen to quite a bit of music on my home theater system, too, in which case I'd bring in a chair from the dining room and sit closer to the speakers, but sometimes I don't bother (the sofa is more comfortable) and it still sounds pretty good anyway. smile.gif

raist3001 03-23-2013 09:50 PM

Yes I was planning on mounting my left and right speakers on the wall. Bad idea?

Robert Cook 03-23-2013 11:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by raist3001 View Post

Yes I was planning on mounting my left and right speakers on the wall. Bad idea?

Acoustically speaking, it is generally more ideal to place bookshelf speakers on stands so that they are not real close to walls, which could otherwise noticeably boost their mid-bass response, and maybe in a way that doesn't make for the best sound quality. That said, my own front speakers are all wall-mounted in order to keep them relatively safe from pets and small children, and I feel that I'm getting great performance from them regardless. This is why I rarely hesitate to recommend wall-mounting, even of rear-ported speakers (not that yours are, with their top-firing passive radiators), and it's actually not why I'm concerned about you doing it (just wanted to give you a general overview here).

What I don't want, for the sake of sound quality in your system, is for something to be in their way for some or all of the viewers, or even close to their sides where early and strong reflections can negatively impact sound quality. Speakers should ideally be out in the open as much as possible, in the forward direction at least--from the speakers' point of view, starting from the plane of its front baffle--even if there is a wall right behind them. You'd get the same advice from anybody who is fairly knowledgeable about speaker placement--put them out in front of everything nearby, closer to the audience. From your photos it looks like you're in danger of violating this rule, even if you can see the entirety of both speakers from all of the viewing positions; and if you can't, then you'd really need to move them, either outward or preferably forward toward the seats on stands. It's too bad that there doesn't appear to be sufficient depth to set the speakers on the outermost parts of the entertainment center (or is there?).

PM-Performance 03-24-2013 03:52 AM

71 Attachment(s)
Do you have space to do behind the sofa , on the floor facing up?
I know it sounds weird, but I have a similar scenario and the back wall and sides up higher did not work well for me.
I placed my speakers on the floor behind the sofa and pointed up and the surround effect is amazing!

raist3001 03-24-2013 05:20 AM

I may be able to fit the front speakers on the console at the ends. If I can, would my depth of field be too small then?The center speaker will be placed in the the center shelf viewable in the photos. If the front speakers are placed on the console they would be real close to the left and right of the front speaker.

I think I am going to wall mount them and experiment. I can always stand mount them later.

Robert Cook 03-24-2013 08:00 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by raist3001 View Post

I may be able to fit the front speakers on the console at the ends. If I can, would my depth of field be too small then?

This would give your front soundstage an angular separation of approximately 35 degrees, if we assume that the speakers will be about a foot closer to the viewers than the screen. That's significantly greater than the 20 degrees in my home theater that I'm quite satisfied with for movies. Whether you would be satisfied may be another matter, and that is why you should experiment with this placement as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by raist3001 View Post

The center speaker will be placed in the the center shelf viewable in the photos. If the front speakers are placed on the console they would be real close to the left and right of the front speaker.

I think I am going to wall mount them and experiment. I can always stand mount them later.

I think that putting them on the console would work fine, as well as be more ideal from an acoustical standpoint because there would be no obstacles to cause early reflections and also because the left front speaker would be farther from the left wall. Experiment with this, and before drilling into your walls, place the speakers on makeshift stands (anything you have available) and try them in every configuration, at various angular separations.

sdg4vfx 03-24-2013 02:03 PM

Re surrounds placement - I also have a couch-against-the-wall situation and have been experimenting with the surrounds placed horizontally (facing the ceiling). It's definitely giving me a better sound overall - before this only the center seating position on the couch got balanced surround, now all the seating gets a good sound.

raist3001 03-24-2013 06:06 PM

Robert I took your advice and went out and purchased speaker stands. Best buy did not carry the definitive pro stands so I purchased a generic set for the time being and ordered my definitive stands from amazon.

I have placed the stands just a bit forward of the console as you advised. I placed my surround speakers on my back wall 2 feet above ear level and angled them towards the viewer.

I have an amazing sound experience, At least for my ears and could not be happier.

I am grateful for your help Robert and to all those who offered advice.

Thank you smile.gif

sdg4vfx 03-24-2013 08:27 PM

Congrats - enjoy ; )

Robert Cook 03-24-2013 10:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by raist3001 View Post

Thank you smile.gif

You're very welcome, and thank you for actually telling us how it all worked out (doesn't always happen)--that's my reward. wink.gif Enjoy! biggrin.gif


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