Looking to buy some high sensitivity bookshelf speakers - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #1 of 33 Old 03-19-2013, 11:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Guys,
I am looking to buy three identical high sensitivity bookshelf speakers for my LCR channel to be used 100% for movie. Budget is about $100-200 each. I tried the BIC FH-65B but am dissappointed as they sound thin and not loud as all which I do not understand as I am expecting a 96db speaker to be at least sound loud in my 2500 Cu Ft room. Please list a few high sensitivity bookshelf speakers (17.5" in heigh max) that I should be considering. How does the Klipsch rb61 ii sound? I understand it costs more than I would like to spend but I don't mind spending if they worth it. What about DIY speakers like the Fusion-8 Alchemy from diysoundgroup? How does it sound?I am not handy at all so I rather not DIY unless someone can convince me that the Fusion-8 Alchemy sounds fantastic or better than the $500 pair Klipsch rb61 ii. Thanks for chiming in.
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post #2 of 33 Old 03-19-2013, 11:34 PM
 
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Just because it has a higher sensitivity rating doesn't mean it will be a quality sound nor even reach very loud levels. You might check this thread for some ideas and info....although most speakers there are outside of your budget you may have to rethink your budget in any case. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1387083/list-of-reference-level-high-sensitivity-spl-speakers
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post #3 of 33 Old 03-20-2013, 04:00 AM
 
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There isn't a lot of high sensitivity bookshelf speakers in your budget range. There is no way that BIC bookshelf is anywhere near 96 dB sensitivity. Chase Home Theater has some but they are more expensive than the Klipsch, but they are true high sensitivity speakers. Pi speakers also offer some high sensitivity speakers but they are a bit above your budget range as well.
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post #4 of 33 Old 03-20-2013, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post

I tried the BIC FH-65B but am dissappointed as they sound thin and not loud as all which I do not understand as I am expecting a 96db speaker to be at least sound loud in my 2500 Cu Ft room. .
That's because it's not a 96dB sensitive speaker. They are posting a phony SPL spec that's based on the sensitivity of the horn loaded tweeter. Accurate SPL specs are based on the woofer sensitivity. With consumer grade woofers that will run between 85 and 90dB, with 87dB being the average. With dual woofers sensitivity can be between 88 and 93dB. Claims for more than that are BS, pure and simple. That includes Klipsch, who pull the same charade as BIC.

To get true high sensitivity the woofer must be horn loaded and/or it must be a high sensitivity pro-sound woofer. Klipsch Heritage products do have high sensitivity for that reason. If the woofer is a pro-sound woofer but not horn loaded its high sensitivity is realized at the cost of low end extension. So if you see a direct radiator woofer cab rated for 98dB with 40Hz extension it's probably a BS spec. If it's rated for 98dB with 70Hz extension then it's probably accurate.

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post #5 of 33 Old 03-20-2013, 08:12 AM
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Are you planning on utilizing a subwoofer with these bookshelfs? I have a pair of RB-61 ii's that I received last week and I put them in my front soundstage while I waited for my RF-82 ii's to arrive. I would definitely want a subwoofer if you are going to be using them for HT use, but the RB-61's definitely sound very clear as long as you don't mind the horn sound.

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post #6 of 33 Old 03-20-2013, 12:55 PM
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Chase has an M-1 at a very attractive price, $125 each. They are relatively high efficiency and will play pretty loud. The size may not work for you as they are 18.3" X 6.9" X 6.6". http://www.chasehometheater.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5570

You're asking a lot from a speaker in this price range.
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post #7 of 33 Old 03-20-2013, 07:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

There is no way that BIC bookshelf is anywhere near 96 dB sensitivity.
I believe you now that I listened to them.

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That's because it's not a 96dB sensitive speaker. .
I definitely believe it is not 96dbs speaker now.
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post #8 of 33 Old 03-20-2013, 07:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jimsfield View Post

Chase has an M-1 at a very attractive price, $125 each. They are relatively high efficiency and will play pretty loud. The size may not work for you as they are 18.3" X 6.9" X 6.6". http://www.chasehometheater.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5570

You're asking a lot from a speaker in this price range.
DIY probably the way to go then. Thanks.
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post #9 of 33 Old 03-20-2013, 07:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Just because it has a higher sensitivity rating doesn't mean it will be a quality sound nor even reach very loud levels.
But a 96db rating speaker should sound louder than the 90db rating one. That is what I was looking for.
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post #10 of 33 Old 03-20-2013, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post

But a 96db rating speaker should sound louder than the 90db rating one. That is what I was looking for.
Bottom line, you can't trust any SPL spec that's not backed up by a measured response chart. If the spec is accurate then the manufacturer should be prominently, and proudly, displaying a chart. If there's no chart it's either because they don't have one, or they don't want you to see it.

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post #11 of 33 Old 03-20-2013, 08:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Just because it has a higher sensitivity rating doesn't mean it will be a quality sound nor even reach very loud levels.
But a 96db rating speaker should sound louder than the 90db rating one. That is what I was looking for.

Yeah, but you still have to have a basis for the rating, sensitivity ratings are not equal just because they cite a "dB" number. At what voltage/wattage/ohm combo are we talking? Anechoic? In room? What? One guys 96dB rating may only compare to another's 85 for all you know and have posted...

Then there's that it may not get much louder cleanly at that rating...i.e. it doesn't mean that that speaker can get up to reference levels just because the sensitivity rating is high to begin with....
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post #12 of 33 Old 03-20-2013, 09:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Bottom line, you can't trust any SPL spec that's not backed up by a measured response chart. If the spec is accurate then the manufacturer should be prominently, and proudly, displaying a chart. If there's no chart it's either because they don't have one, or they don't want you to see it.
100% agree.

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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Yeah, but you still have to have a basis for the rating, sensitivity ratings are not equal just because they cite a "dB" number. At what voltage/wattage/ohm combo are we talking? Anechoic? In room? What? One guys 96dB rating may only compare to another's 85 for all you know and have posted...

Then there's that it may not get much louder cleanly at that rating...i.e. it doesn't mean that that speaker can get up to reference levels just because the sensitivity rating is high to begin with....
Also 100% agree. Perhaps I should phrase it: 96db speaker is louder than 90db one from the same line of the same speaker brand.
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post #13 of 33 Old 03-20-2013, 09:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Bottom line, you can't trust any SPL spec that's not backed up by a measured response chart. If the spec is accurate then the manufacturer should be prominently, and proudly, displaying a chart. If there's no chart it's either because they don't have one, or they don't want you to see it.
100% agree.

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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Yeah, but you still have to have a basis for the rating, sensitivity ratings are not equal just because they cite a "dB" number. At what voltage/wattage/ohm combo are we talking? Anechoic? In room? What? One guys 96dB rating may only compare to another's 85 for all you know and have posted...

Then there's that it may not get much louder cleanly at that rating...i.e. it doesn't mean that that speaker can get up to reference levels just because the sensitivity rating is high to begin with....
Also 100% agree. Perhaps I should phrase it: 96db speaker is louder than 90db one from the same line of the same speaker brand.

Not really, you still need a basis of measurement, otherwise it's a garbage number. It's like the "watts" advertised for avr's....it's the turds in marketing that promote this kind of bs and should be beaten to a pulp for doing so (and somewhat anyone who would simply take them for gospel...they need some beatings too)
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post #14 of 33 Old 03-21-2013, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Not really, you still need a basis of measurement, otherwise it's a garbage number. It's like the "watts" advertised for avr's....it's the turds in marketing that promote this kind of bs and should be beaten to a pulp for doing so (and somewhat anyone who would simply take them for gospel...they need some beatings too)
The standard of measurement that's existed for a half century or so is half-space anechoic. It may not be the best method, but it's the standard, and so long as everyone does it the same way you are always comparing apples to apples. There are instances where an in-room measurement with specific placement is of value, especially with subs, but that doesn't apply to tops.
Quote:
[Bill: Comments on the claimed sensitivity? No measurements that I could find.]
As far as I'm concerned no chart, no sale. Any hobbyist with a PC, an $80 mic, measuring freeware and a back yard can take very accurate measurements. There's absolutely no excuse for a manufacturer not doing so.
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Can a coaxial (or other drivers) of that ^ quality be bought for <$200? I don't know... just wondering.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=290-500
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=290-525

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post #15 of 33 Old 03-21-2013, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post

But a 96db rating speaker should sound louder than the 90db rating one. That is what I was looking for.
This seems like it should be true but it's not necessarily. Sensitivity (96db for example) should measure how many decibels a speaker will produce at a given power input, usually measured in volts. It doesn't tell you if the speaker will produce 100db no matter how much power you feed it. There are speakers rated at <90db that are capable of producing >120db given enough power and speakers rated at 95db that could not produce 100 db no matter how much power you feed them.
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post #16 of 33 Old 03-21-2013, 11:20 AM
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Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and EMP e5Bi surrounds, Outlaw LFM1 Plus sub, EMP 10i10i sub
Set up #2: Def Tech SM450, CLR2002, SLS Qline surrounds and Klipsch 12wD sub
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post #17 of 33 Old 03-21-2013, 12:03 PM
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I can sell you my rear speakers that are high sensitivity but need a sub, all high sensitivity speakers need subs. There are the BFM W8's prototype built by Bill. I am moving some DR's back there.

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Rear subs 2 XXX ported SLLT powered by IPR2-7500.
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post #18 of 33 Old 03-21-2013, 01:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Not really, you still need a basis of measurement, otherwise it's a garbage number. It's like the "watts" advertised for avr's....it's the turds in marketing that promote this kind of bs and should be beaten to a pulp for doing so (and somewhat anyone who would simply take them for gospel...they need some beatings too)
The standard of measurement that's existed for a half century or so is half-space anechoic. It may not be the best method, but it's the standard, and so long as everyone does it the same way you are always comparing apples to apples. There are instances where an in-room measurement with specific placement is of value, especially with subs, but that doesn't apply to tops.
Quote:
[Bill: Comments on the claimed sensitivity? No measurements that I could find.]
As far as I'm concerned no chart, no sale. Any hobbyist with a PC, an $80 mic, measuring freeware and a back yard can take very accurate measurements. There's absolutely no excuse for a manufacturer not doing so.
Quote:
Can a coaxial (or other drivers) of that ^ quality be bought for <$200? I don't know... just wondering.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=290-500
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=290-525

For my part just meant in this case is it needs some confirming basis, in your words:

Th advantage to the 2.83v rating is that you'll get an apples to apples comparison of how two speakers will compare driven by the same amp, as the output capability of amps is voltage limited. But if you have adequate headroom it's not all that important. The main reason why manufacturers rate a 4 ohm cab at 2.83v is that it will give a 3dB higher reading than 1 watt/2.0v, and that's purely a marketing tool.
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post #19 of 33 Old 03-21-2013, 03:16 PM
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Back yard? smile.gif
If you happen to have an anechoic chamber handy you can measure your speakers in it. If not you can use a back yard that allows you to take a measurement at least 30 feet from any buildings or walls. That's also anechoic. Chambers are used where going outdoors is impractical. Danley Sound Labs does their measuring in their parking lot.
Quote:
For my part just meant in this case is it needs some confirming basis, in your words:The advantage to the 2.83v rating is that you'll get an apples to apples comparison of how two speakers will compare driven by the same amp, as the output capability of amps is voltage limited. But if you have adequate headroom it's not all that important. The main reason why manufacturers rate a 4 ohm cab at 2.83v is that it will give a 3dB higher reading than 1 watt/2.0v, and that's purely a marketing tool.
What don't you understand?

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post #20 of 33 Old 03-22-2013, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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What if I raise my budget to $1000 for all three front speakers? Is there any thing that fits my need: high sensitivity with 17" heigh max that is? Thanks.
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post #21 of 33 Old 03-22-2013, 11:02 AM
 
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There is nothing outside of DIY that will fill that order that I know of. You are asking for high sensitivity in a small cabinet for cheap, that just isn't going to happen. If you raise your height requirement to 19" you can get some Chase Pro-10s.
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post #22 of 33 Old 03-22-2013, 11:09 AM - Thread Starter
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If I can fit 19", I probably already bought the Sho-10 or Pro-10 already. Any thing higher than 17" will block the bottom of my front projector screen and I cannot raise the screen up any higher. That is my dilemma.
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post #23 of 33 Old 03-22-2013, 11:12 AM
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post #24 of 33 Old 03-22-2013, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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^^ Looking really nice. Look like you have all the tools there to build them. I am on the other hand, not handy and do not have much tool. How do they sound? Do you think the Fusion 8 sound good and loud for its size? It does not look too hard putting them together. Thanks.
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post #25 of 33 Old 03-22-2013, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post

^^ Looking really nice. Look like you have all the tools there to build them. I am on the other hand, not handy and do not have much tool. How do they sound? Do you think the Fusion 8 sound good and loud for its size? It does not look too hard putting them together. Thanks.

Ill let you know when i finish them, hopefully ill get to it this weekend, all i really need to do is the xover. and you dont need much for tools besides clamps, glue and a soldering iron if you go with the the full kit from the site

you prob dont even need clamps, you could glue them together with tape
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post #26 of 33 Old 03-22-2013, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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^^ Thanks. Good to know. Please let me know how they sound. Very tempted to DYI now.
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post #27 of 33 Old 03-22-2013, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post

If I can fit 19", I probably already bought the Sho-10 or Pro-10 already. Any thing higher than 17" will block the bottom of my front projector screen and I cannot raise the screen up any higher. That is my dilemma.
Did you know you can turn the Sho-10/Pro-10/MS-10 on their sides so they are only about 12" tall. They will sound the same on their sides as upright.
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post #28 of 33 Old 03-22-2013, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
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^^
Sound the same? Are you sure? Thanks.
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post #29 of 33 Old 03-22-2013, 02:49 PM
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^^
Sound the same? Are you sure? Thanks.
Close, but not quite. The HF horn has a 90x90 degree output pattern, so it will sound the same either way, as will the woofer. But in the region of the cossover there will be a bit of combing and loss of dispersion when the cab is horizontal. It shouldn't be severe, but if you can keep them vertical you should.

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post #30 of 33 Old 03-22-2013, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

If you happen to have an anechoic chamber handy you can measure your speakers in it. If not you can use a back yard that allows you to take a measurement at least 30 feet from any buildings or walls. That's also anechoic. Chambers are used where going outdoors is impractical. Danley Sound Labs does their measuring in their parking lot.
What don't you understand?

It's not an-echoic because of reflections from the ground.

Notice the floors in these shots from B&W: http://blog.bowers-wilkins.com/sound-lab/tools-of-the-trade-the-anechoic-chamber.

I'm surprised you don't know something this basic Bill.

Mind you: Real rooms always seem to have floors: so it's not a bad measurement, but it's not the same as an an-echoic chamber
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