Review: SVS Ultra Towers(Now with pics!) - Page 3 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 2Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #61 of 67 Old 08-14-2014, 04:01 AM
AVS Special Member
 
fatbottom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 3,814
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 424 Post(s)
Liked: 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subdusted View Post
You need current, not watts....You need a high-current amp more when you listen at low levels...With a regular AVR a lot of detail and overtones are lost at low volume levels comparing to a good amp. The difference is obvious.

Agree. AVR's will go as loud, but provide current? I went from a 70W Yamaha to a 60W strereo integrated amp with a large toriod PSU the upgrade in control & sound quality was MASSIVE. The amp I'm using now has two 1300va I think just for three channels!

Most people think just because it goes loud enough, a higher end amp would be exactly the same. Not so.

When a quality amp has a larger power supply, for fewer channels, compared to a 9 channel amp you know the latter will be current limited.

Krell Evolution 900e x 7

Bose Jewel speakers.

 

Jealous of my speakers?

fatbottom is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 67 Old 08-14-2014, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
SmithandWesson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: CA, Bay Area
Posts: 174
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subdusted View Post
You need current, not watts....You need a high-current amp more when you listen at low levels...With a regular AVR a lot of detail and overtones are lost at low volume levels comparing to a good amp. The difference is obvious.
I've also heard about people talking about how detail and overtones are lost when using "inferior quantity" speaker cable. I'm sorry but I just don't buy it. There have been plenty of tests done that show the difference between amps at modest listening levels is nil. Modern AVRs are capable of respectably low distortion when driven within their limits. I know I can't hear distortion that is 80db below the intended waveform and I can't tell if you modify a given signal by a few thousandths of a percent. If an amp has enough current to put out a given power, say 50 watts(re: W=V*A) with undetectable(to the human ear) distortion then it would make sense that it would also have enough current to power speakers drawing only a few watts at lower levels no?

Some people think more power helps but many times it doesn't. The volume difference between a 100 watt amp and 200 watt amp is 3dB or "one notch" louder. To get a meaningful increase in output potential your going to have to quadruple the power or more. 

Let's not forget that nearly all amps are designed to have a very very flat frequency response, many varying by no more than a few tenth of a dB. The differences between amps emerges when distortion becomes a factor, and that does become a factor in 2 instances.

1. High playback levels

2. Your speaker presents a "difficult" amplifier load with dips below 4ohms. Note this is again ultimately a playback issue, the more difficult the load the less volume you can get while keeping audible distortion at bay.

Frankly I don't care what anybody claims they heard unless it was done in a scientific manner to control variables. The mind and body can be deceived and influenced with incredible ease. Take a look at some of the most famous visual and auditory illusions, many of them continue to trick the brain even after the illusion is explained. Let's also not forget hallucinations, the placebo effect etc. The smaller the difference between items being tested the greater care must be taken to ensure outside effects and stimulus is controlled. For example I don't need to be blindfolded to tell the difference between a bose cube and Status 8T, the difference is immediate and so great that it drowns out much of the possible stimulus that could affect my decision. However when get to subtle things like amplifiers or mp3 bitrates, you have to be very diligent in blocking out external stimuli. You might be surprised to find that a "day and night" difference between WAV and 320kbps becomes indistinguishable(to most) when put through an ABx tester. It's easy to fool your brain into hearing differences that aren't there when you can tell which track you are listening to...of course the uncompressed WAV track has 10x the information so it must sound better....right? Same thing with amps, seeing that great big beautiful amp replacing your tiny AVR absolutely influences what you think you are hearing. The unfortunate thing about your brain being tricked is it doesn't know it's being tricked.
bulls likes this.

Main System: SVS Ultra Towers - 15" custom ported subwoofer - SVS PB-1000 - Yamaha RX-A740 Aventage. 125dB @30hz, 16hz @ -3dB
Computer System: Carnagie Acoustics CSB-1 - 12' Onkyo sealed subwoofer - Pioneer VSX-92 THX
Other speakers owned or auditioned: Aperion T6 - Ascend CBM-170 - Energy RC-10 - Wharfdale 10.1 - Arx A1b

Last edited by SmithandWesson; 08-14-2014 at 10:42 AM.
SmithandWesson is offline  
post #63 of 67 Old 08-14-2014, 11:00 AM
Member
 
Subdusted's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmithandWesson View Post
Frankly I don't care what anybody claims they heard unless it was done in a scientific manner to control variables. The mind and body can be deceived and influenced with incredible ease.
That just shows that you don't have enough experience... 20 some years ago there was "the lowest THD" race in the Hi-Fi in Japan. The result - tons of amps, that had great numbers on paper but gave out lifeless sound. Right now I have two DACs : Oppo 105 and Mark Levinson 360s... on paper Oppo is superior, but when you turn them on - Levinson blows Oppo out of the water. It is so much superior that there's just no comparison.
So, scientific approach doesn't help much in audio. There are so many things that affect the sound that simply cannot be explained. Best example - Acoustic Revive products, all of them are esoteric...but even the die-hard sceptics have to agree that they work when they actually audition them.
As for the cables ... you don't have to buy it, all you need to do is try a couple dozen of different ones ranging from el-cheapo Monoprice, to...let's say, AudioQuest Guibraltar ( which is not really that expensive ) and then speak FROM EXPERIENCE. That's the only thing that counts, not what you read somewhere online.
When I was building my first setup the worst match for my speakers was a 2000 dollar Nordost, the best match - 250 dollar Supra Ply 3.4. So, high price doesn't necessarily mean that this particular product will sound great with the rest of your components. It's all about the synergy. With poor cable choices ( power, ICs, speaker ) one can easily screw up a decent setup, but right cables will make a well-balanced setup really shine.
The more transparent the setup is, the greater is the influence of the slightest change and more obvious it becomes. Of course, this is relavant to Hi-Fi ,not Home Theater. With HT everything is a lot simpler.
Subdusted is offline  
post #64 of 67 Old 08-14-2014, 11:17 AM
Member
 
Subdusted's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I've done multiple not just AB but ABC and ABCD tests... with power amps and preamps, DACs, transports, cables, lossless and lossy formats, CDs ( comparing the same album from three different countries ), regenerators, speakers, subs etc, etc, etc...This is my job...That's what I do almost every day.
Sometimes the difference is subtle, sometimes it is clear as day. I made no mistake and could tell which amp is which in a blindfold test with 4 contestants ( CJ, ML, Vincent, Pathos )... but there were also instances when I could only guess.
Subdusted is offline  
post #65 of 67 Old 08-14-2014, 11:22 AM
Member
 
Subdusted's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 11
[QUOTE=SmithandWesson;26562457of course the uncompressed WAV track has 10x the information so it must sound better....right? [/QUOTE]
and it does.. if the equipment allows to show it. Especially the overtones, or, what we call "tails"
Subdusted is offline  
post #66 of 67 Old 08-14-2014, 07:14 PM
Member
 
Subdusted's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 11
As for the power... my current dual mono amp ( Mark Levinson 27.5 ) produces "only" 100 watts per channel...But look at this power supplies !!! 620 something VA each...In fact, there's nothing but power supplies inside.
This baby can drive any speaker that will fit in the room, even Dynaudio...Try to do that with a receiver...

For HT ,with it's sudden changes in dynamics, having a two channel amp for front speakers is a must. It will bring your HT experience to a whole new level. Emotiva, with their modest pricing and not stellar but quite decent quality stuff would be the ticket for most.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_0006.jpg
Views:	12
Size:	161.6 KB
ID:	212737  

Last edited by Subdusted; 08-14-2014 at 07:18 PM.
Subdusted is offline  
post #67 of 67 Old 08-14-2014, 09:32 PM
Advanced Member
 
datranz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: fontana, california
Posts: 991
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 30
I call none scientific bs. $2000.00 cables, $250 cables, audio synergy. Sciencetific data is is how audio works. Speakers are built with measurements, data is transfer of wires, if speaker cable make such a difference, we need to change all the lead/tin/copper circuit board to these 250 wires.
Power supply in a well build avr is fine to a certain point, beyond its limit is will distort and run into problems, but is you are saying your amp sounds better at 100 watts, you got to be kidding. The only time it may sound better is because some high end amps run on class a for the first 20w than switch over to ab. But I wouldn't say that will sound much different because technology has improved so much. Beyond 100w then some avr will have problems powering all channels, only then, an external amp is needed. The hierarchy to a good sound system are the speakers, then sound treatments, and finally dsp in the receiver/prepro.

Last edited by datranz; 08-15-2014 at 07:16 AM.
datranz is offline  
Reply Speakers

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off