Making CMT-340 SE Look good - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 27 Old 03-27-2013, 08:20 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
aamirnshah's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 9
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi Im new to the forum and super noob.

Ive been doing lots of research on what speakers to buy. I recently bought a SC-1522-k and am now looking for some speakers.

I'm want to start with Ascend CMT-340 SE L/R/C and will later add a sub and rears.

I showed pictures of the speakers to my wife but she is not convinced floorstanding towers will look good.



I showed her this picture and she isnt happy.

Do any members here have pictures of a nice HT setup that would convince my wife to let me buy them?

Also, has anyone mounted the CMT-340 to the wall? Im not sure how achievable this is. And Im curious to see how such a setup would look.

Or are there any other better looking speaker alternatives that will achieve similar quality at similar budget?

Thanks in advance
aamirnshah is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 27 Old 03-27-2013, 08:32 PM
Senior Member
 
ProfD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 472
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 18
The CMT-340 SE are rear ported so that is a challenge for wall mounting. Not sure that it would be recommended.
Those speakers didn't pass the WAF test for me... So instead I bought some B&W 683's. I am very happy with my purchase.
ProfD is offline  
post #3 of 27 Old 03-27-2013, 08:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ousooner2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 2,104
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 84



Panny 65st60 / Denon X1000 / EMP e55ti / EMP e56ci / EMP e5bi / (2) e1010i
ousooner2 is offline  
post #4 of 27 Old 03-27-2013, 08:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ousooner2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 2,104
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 84
Or just show her some Revel Salon2's or something like that.....and look surprised when they show up lol.biggrin.gif

Panny 65st60 / Denon X1000 / EMP e55ti / EMP e56ci / EMP e5bi / (2) e1010i
ousooner2 is offline  
post #5 of 27 Old 03-27-2013, 08:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 7,217
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 466 Post(s)
Liked: 971
You know that's not a picture of 340's except for the center, right? It's a fairly large speaker so you might need to build a shelf or something or drill your own mounting gear into the speaker since it doesn't come with any. You can get the 340 in a nicer custom finish but you may as well get one of their better speakers that already come in a nicer finish at a better price.

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


lovinthehd is online now  
post #6 of 27 Old 03-27-2013, 08:56 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
aamirnshah's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 9
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
ousooner,

I didnt realize ascend also has those types of stands:
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/access/spkstnds/sp30stands.html

Ill see if my wife likes those ones better. thanks for showing that.

Mounting is still an option, but id have to have a good 6 -8 inches of clearing off the wall and Im not sure how far some of these mounts push the speakers out.

A shelf may be possible but something tells me it would look awkward with such a long speakers.

I could probably mount the CBM-170 to the wall.

Im curious with a good sub how much am I really losing by swapping CMT-340s with CBM-170s
aamirnshah is offline  
post #7 of 27 Old 03-28-2013, 12:11 AM
Advanced Member
 
Ascend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: San Clemente, CA
Posts: 610
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by aamirnshah View Post

Hi Im new to the forum and super noob.

Ive been doing lots of research on what speakers to buy. I recently bought a SC-1522-k and am now looking for some speakers.

I'm want to start with Ascend CMT-340 SE L/R/C and will later add a sub and rears.

I showed pictures of the speakers to my wife but she is not convinced floorstanding towers will look good.



I showed her this picture and she isnt happy.

Do any members here have pictures of a nice HT setup that would convince my wife to let me buy them?

Also, has anyone mounted the CMT-340 to the wall? Im not sure how achievable this is. And Im curious to see how such a setup would look.

Or are there any other better looking speaker alternatives that will achieve similar quality at similar budget?

Thanks in advance

Hi aamirnshah,

Those left/right speakers in the picture do indeed look like our CBM-170SE speakers, not our CMT-340SE. I am also not sure what stands those are.

If you do not like our TP-24 stands for the 340's, check out the Sanus SF-22 stands. http://www.amazon.com/Sanus-Systems-Foundations-Bookshelf-Speakers/dp/B004STEH08/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1364451011&sr=1-2

David Fabrikant

audio professional and soft spoken representative of www.AscendAcoustics.com

Ascend is offline  
post #8 of 27 Old 03-28-2013, 07:22 AM
Advanced Member
 
Newbie01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: North Wales, PA
Posts: 834
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
340 give you more dynamics and can give you "crisper" highs and deeper bass. They are specifically designed for "wide disbursement"... That being said the 170's will probably work fine...but your not gaining a ton of WAF. Now Ascend Sierra and Aperion Veres are works of art...just pretty to look at and listen to.

I didnt have to contend with WAF so the 170SE wall mounted work prefect fer me.
Newbie01 is offline  
post #9 of 27 Old 03-28-2013, 08:56 AM
Advanced Member
 
Robert Cook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: San Diego County, CA, USA
Posts: 985
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfD View Post

The CMT-340 SE are rear ported so that is a challenge for wall mounting. Not sure that it would be recommended.

It should work fine, in my opinion (and in my experience with the CBM-170 SE), provided that you could find a mount that could support it. I'm pretty sure that this one could, as long as you don't tilt the speakers much:
http://www.amazon.com/VideoSecu-Clamping-Mounting-Surrounding-MS56B/dp/B000X9O8SI
Robert Cook is offline  
post #10 of 27 Old 03-28-2013, 10:20 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
aamirnshah's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 9
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I have convinced my wife that a tower look can look good if done stylishly by showing her this picture (no idea what brand these are)


BUT, now she is convinced we should get a wood finish.

lovinthehd and newbie01 suggested I upgrade to better ascend speakers as I can get the finish for free plus get better speakers. Ive heard some good reviews about the sierras, but I've also read that the CMT-340's work better with movies due to it being more dynamic. Our habits are 75% music 25%

My living room is 17x33ft, where most of the HT will be on one side and the kitchen on the other. For this type of setup, would Sierra-1s perform better than cmt-340 for home theatre? Would it be better to get a custom finish on the cmt-340s?
aamirnshah is offline  
post #11 of 27 Old 03-28-2013, 11:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 7,217
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 466 Post(s)
Liked: 971
Those look like B&W speakers, 800 series I think. If you can afford the Ascend towers, those would be sweet! That's a fairly big room, the 340s may fill the room a bit easier but the Sierra-1s do well in a large room as well, as do they work well for a ht/multichannel setup (my living room is about 4500 cu ft). Mind you I haven't had the pleasure of the 340s, or the towers....yet.

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


lovinthehd is online now  
post #12 of 27 Old 03-29-2013, 03:40 PM
Senior Member
 
skidog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Waconia, Minnesota
Posts: 205
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
I must like dull things because I don't think my 340's are ugly. In fact when I ordered them I was a little concerned after reading comments about the looks, but after I unboxed them I was happy, it's just a black speaker that sounds great. Exactly what I was looking for.
Now if only my fondness of dull and unattractive looks carried over to the dating scene I would probably have better luck!! biggrin.gif

Panasonic TC-P65VT50
Denon 2113ci
Panasonic DMP-BDT220P
Ascend CMT-340SE L/R
Ascend CMT-340SE Center
Ascend CBM-170SE Surrounds
Klipsch RW12-D x 2
skidog is offline  
post #13 of 27 Old 03-29-2013, 04:32 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
aamirnshah's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 9
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Well I just realized ascend is in san clemente which is driving distance from me. So we are lucky enough to be able to look and listen to their speakers.

My wife is now also accepting of buying sierra towers if they look better. Do you guys think its worth the 700 dollar tweeter upgrade on the towers? 2100 + 700 for the upgrade is a pretty penny. Ive heard lots about the CMT-340, but not much about the sierra towers. Are they really worth the extra money? Wont buying a high quality subwoofer negate the need for the towers vs the CMT-340s?
aamirnshah is offline  
post #14 of 27 Old 03-29-2013, 05:02 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cel4145's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 11,760
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 248 Post(s)
Liked: 781
There's a discussion thread for the towers here on AVS: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1290568/official-ascend-acoustics-tower-thread

I would imagine some of the people there have probably done that upgrade and can answer your question.

Your questions are answered: Speaker FAQ
HT: Energy RC-50, RC-LCR, Veritas VS Surrounds | Dual CHT SS 18.1s | Denon AVR-888 | modified Dayton SA1000 | Antimode 8033C
Desktop: CBM-170 SE | SVS SB-1000 | Audio-GD NFB-11 | HK 3390
Headphone & Portable HE-400 | K612 Pro | HP150 | DX50 | E12
cel4145 is offline  
post #15 of 27 Old 03-29-2013, 05:35 PM
AVS Special Member
 
astrallite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,286
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Spice things up with some cherry laminate biggrin.gif

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=261-626
astrallite is offline  
post #16 of 27 Old 03-29-2013, 05:39 PM
AVS Special Member
 
astrallite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,286
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by aamirnshah View Post

Well I just realized ascend is in san clemente which is driving distance from me. So we are lucky enough to be able to look and listen to their speakers.

My wife is now also accepting of buying sierra towers if they look better. Do you guys think its worth the 700 dollar tweeter upgrade on the towers? 2100 + 700 for the upgrade is a pretty penny. Ive heard lots about the CMT-340, but not much about the sierra towers. Are they really worth the extra money? Wont buying a high quality subwoofer negate the need for the towers vs the CMT-340s?

The tweeter upgrade impacts music the most I suspect. Perhaps less noticeable just for TV and/or movies. Also ribbons tend to have poorer vertical dispersion--good if you are just at the seating location, but maybe worse if you want party speakers where people are standing or sitting all over the place.

The tweeter upgrade is definitely a good deal though. I don't know how much Ascend is being charged for the RAAL 70-20 tweeters, but $700 is below cost for per pair if you were to buy it from RAAL directly (with a business license). Just looking around the web, most DIYers are selling used RAAL 70-20s for over $800 a pair.
astrallite is offline  
post #17 of 27 Old 03-29-2013, 07:23 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cschang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA
Posts: 14,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrallite View Post

The tweeter upgrade is definitely a good deal though. I don't know how much Ascend is being charged for the RAAL 70-20 tweeters, but $700 is below cost for per pair if you were to buy it from RAAL directly (with a business license). Just looking around the web, most DIYers are selling used RAAL 70-20s for over $800 a pair.
Ascend buys a good quantity of RAALs. They are the number one seller of RAALs in the past year of all speaker manufacturers.

-curtis

Owner of Wave Crest Audio
Volunteer Mod at the Ascend Acoustics Forum
Like all things on the Internet, do your research, as forums have a good amount of misinformation.
Help beat breast cancer!

cschang is offline  
post #18 of 27 Old 03-30-2013, 04:56 AM
Senior Member
 
ProfD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 472
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Ascend buys a good quantity of RAALs. They are the number one seller of RAALs in the past year of all speaker manufacturers.

They must also save a little because they are no longer using the NrT (a $300 upgrade on the Sierra-1's).
ProfD is offline  
post #19 of 27 Old 03-30-2013, 08:34 AM
AVS Special Member
 
sdg4vfx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Southern CA
Posts: 1,349
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by aamirnshah View Post

Well I just realized ascend is in san clemente which is driving distance from me. So we are lucky enough to be able to look and listen to their speakers.

My wife is now also accepting of buying sierra towers if they look better. Do you guys think its worth the 700 dollar tweeter upgrade on the towers? 2100 + 700 for the upgrade is a pretty penny. Ive heard lots about the CMT-340, but not much about the sierra towers. Are they really worth the extra money? Wont buying a high quality subwoofer negate the need for the towers vs the CMT-340s?

Curious why you're leap-frogging the Sierra 1's? With a good sub it seems like they might be a good fit ...
sdg4vfx is offline  
post #20 of 27 Old 03-30-2013, 11:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 7,217
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 466 Post(s)
Liked: 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfD View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Ascend buys a good quantity of RAALs. They are the number one seller of RAALs in the past year of all speaker manufacturers.

They must also save a little because they are no longer using the NrT (a $300 upgrade on the Sierra-1's).

The NrT is the stock tweeter on the towers....

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


lovinthehd is online now  
post #21 of 27 Old 03-30-2013, 01:14 PM
Senior Member
 
ProfD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 472
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

The NrT is the stock tweeter on the towers....

Yes of course. The point was that they charge $700 for the RAAL upgrade. And that price seems low for the RAAL. But the cost is really $700 + the cost of the NrT because the NrT is no longer included.
ProfD is offline  
post #22 of 27 Old 03-30-2013, 11:01 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cschang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA
Posts: 14,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfD View Post

Yes of course. The point was that they charge $700 for the RAAL upgrade. And that price seems low for the RAAL. But the cost is really $700 + the cost of the NrT because the NrT is no longer included.
You are speaking of retail cost, not the cost to the speaker manufacturer when bought in quantity.

-curtis

Owner of Wave Crest Audio
Volunteer Mod at the Ascend Acoustics Forum
Like all things on the Internet, do your research, as forums have a good amount of misinformation.
Help beat breast cancer!

cschang is offline  
post #23 of 27 Old 03-31-2013, 02:31 AM
AVS Special Member
 
astrallite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,286
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
On Ascend forums Dave F actually said if he was going to sell 70-20XR RAAL tweeters direct to customer, they would cost $585 each or $1170 per pair, but removing the NRT ($300) is offsetting the cost somewhat. However, if this was true, that means Ascend is actually eating $130 for every RAAL system they sell.

I saw a thread about a possible Sierra-1 RAAL coming in at $1798. That would be $950 above the stock Sierra-1 ($848). However, as Dave said himself, the stock tweeter of the Sierra-1 about 1/4 to 1/5 the cost of the NRT tweeters (implying the stock Sierra tweeters are about $67/pr). In this case, they'd be eating $173 for every pair of Sierra-1 RAALs.

This doesn't seem very economical--if the numbers add up, Ascend would be actually losing money on their higher end speakers. Of course, maybe the marginal cost of producing speakers has gone down sufficiently for Ascend that they can eat away at their margins with their top end products. Either that, maybe when Dave said he would sell the RAALs at $585/ea, he wasn't quoting at-cost value but rather a number he would be comfortable selling them for (i.e., already includes an extra $130 on top of vendor price).
astrallite is offline  
post #24 of 27 Old 03-31-2013, 02:43 AM
Member
 
eRob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 93
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrallite View Post

On Ascend forums Dave F actually said if he was going to sell 70-20XR RAAL tweeters direct to customer, they would cost $585 each or $1170 per pair, but removing the NRT ($300) is offsetting the cost somewhat. However, if this was true, that means Ascend is actually eating $130 for every RAAL system they sell.

I saw a thread about a possible Sierra-1 RAAL coming in at $1798. That would be $940 above the stock Sierra-1 ($858). However, as Dave said himself, the stock tweeter of the Sierra-1 about 1/4 to 1/5 the cost of the NRT tweeters (implying the stock Sierra tweeters are about $67/pr). In this case, they'd be eating $163 for every pair of Sierra-1 RAALs.

This doesn't seem very economical--if the numbers add up, Ascend would be actually losing money on their higher end speakers. Of course, maybe the marginal cost of producing speakers has gone down sufficiently for Ascend that they can eat away at their margins with their top end products. Either that, maybe when Dave said he would sell the RAALs at $585/ea, he wasn't quoting at-cost value but rather a number he would be comfortable selling them for (i.e., already includes an extra $130 on top of vendor price).

Dave will sell you a pair of Sierra-1's with the RAAL tweeter. It's a custom order.
eRob is offline  
post #25 of 27 Old 03-31-2013, 03:14 AM
Advanced Member
 
RicardoJoa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Posts: 628
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrallite View Post

On Ascend forums Dave F actually said if he was going to sell 70-20XR RAAL tweeters direct to customer, they would cost $585 each or $1170 per pair, but removing the NRT ($300) is offsetting the cost somewhat. However, if this was true, that means Ascend is actually eating $130 for every RAAL system they sell.

I saw a thread about a possible Sierra-1 RAAL coming in at $1798. That would be $950 above the stock Sierra-1 ($848). However, as Dave said himself, the stock tweeter of the Sierra-1 about 1/4 to 1/5 the cost of the NRT tweeters (implying the stock Sierra tweeters are about $67/pr). In this case, they'd be eating $173 for every pair of Sierra-1 RAALs.

This doesn't seem very economical--if the numbers add up, Ascend would be actually losing money on their higher end speakers. Of course, maybe the marginal cost of producing speakers has gone down sufficiently for Ascend that they can eat away at their margins with their top end products. Either that, maybe when Dave said he would sell the RAALs at $585/ea, he wasn't quoting at-cost value but rather a number he would be comfortable selling them for (i.e., already includes an extra $130 on top of vendor price).

Well, no one pays retail price in a business. After all Dave is in a business not charity. im pretty sure he is getting a great discount on his custom raal, providing that he is offering his product at competetive and reasonable price. You would get 10% off from madisound if you buy over 10 and madisound would still be profiting. Dave gets his direct from manufacture. This thread had no pun intended.
RicardoJoa is online now  
post #26 of 27 Old 03-31-2013, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
aamirnshah's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 9
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdg4vfx View Post

Curious why you're leap-frogging the Sierra 1's? With a good sub it seems like they might be a good fit ...

The Sierra 1's will also be a consideration. I am still leaning more towards the towers or the CMT-340s as they will probably fill up my living room more; plus I am using these speakers majority for movies & tv.

Either way, when we go to Ascend we will sample all 3 options. Just need to save up enough $$$.

Question: With the SC-1522-k, would I require an amp with these ascend options. It supposedly outputs 130 watts for 9 channels.
aamirnshah is offline  
post #27 of 27 Old 03-31-2013, 04:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
astrallite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,286
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
The Pioneer receivers use discrete Class D amps for each pair of amp channels, so they can produce 100+W/channel into all channels as claimed.

Ascends don't have particularly low sensitivity either, 100W/channel should be plenty.
astrallite is offline  
Reply Speakers

Tags
Ascend Acoustics Cmt 340 Se Center



Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off