Clash of the Minispeakers - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 59 Old 04-03-2013, 01:25 AM
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Well, I enjoy my Axioms for an hour or two at a time almost everyday. They don't make me run out of the room covering my ears after 10 minutes.

BTW, according to my net searches, I could find only 2 who mention tweeter ringing - you & that ninja dude. If there are more, then they are well buried.

If I can't perceive differences between power cords, speaker wires, cables, amps or a complete & expensive 10-tube change in my tube amp, then it is doubtful that I'll hear ringing. Sorry, but again I'm skeptical...

TAM
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post #32 of 59 Old 04-03-2013, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

As example, pick up a different set of bookshelfs, what ever brand, Aperion, HSU, Arx, Monitor, Focal ect... Put the Axioms away (I know easier said than done) for about 2 or 3 weeks and listen exclusively to the other bookshelf. Then hook the M3s back up and listen to familar music you did with the new bookshelfs.

Listening for just a short session will never give you a true idea of how good or bad a speaker will sound.

And this is true for any speakers. There's a lot of advice being given on AVS based on the fact that someone listened to speaker A in one hifi store for half an hour and then listened to speaker B at in home demo for an hour two weeks later. Outside of having extensive, repeated experience with each, I think the most that can often realistically be said about speaker A vs speaker B comparisons of the former type is whether or not they are similar or different in SQ/value class.

Consequently, I believe being able to compare two speakers that are in the same class requires an intimate knowledge of the sonic character of each that requires many hours of listening. There may be some people that can do this quicker, but it's impossible to know who those people are. And we are deluding ourselves if we think short AB testing sessions with volume leveling substitute for that sort of intimate knowledge of each of the speakers. All that does is show which speaker one would pick in a short AB testing session, not what happens after longer term experience with the speakers.
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post #33 of 59 Old 04-03-2013, 06:12 AM
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I think we need a bookshelf speaker shootout GTG in either the $300-700/pr range or the $700-1500/pr range.......or both....smile.gif
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post #34 of 59 Old 04-03-2013, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by padgman1 View Post

I think we need a bookshelf speaker shootout GTG in either the $300-700/pr range or the $700-1500/pr range.......or both....smile.gif

I'm not convinced those are that helpful other than maybe making class differentiations in speakers or for reaching very general qualitative assessment consensus. The enjoyment of a pair of speakers is a long term aesthetic experience. For instance, short term exposure comparisons might only tell a listener which speaker initially sounds better, which can be influenced by what type of sound signature one has been listening to most recently.

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post #35 of 59 Old 04-03-2013, 06:36 AM
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And with those other comparisons I have heard my friends speakers which he built for dirt cheap that sound better TO ME than speakers I heard in some stores that cost well in excess for $2000. Like everyone says, speakers are subjective. These shootouts only explain how these speakers compare to that persons personal tastes. That is why I had to go and listen to the PSB B5's to see if I like the sound or not. Just because someone recommended them to me didn't mean that I would like them. Hell, I liked the Klipsch RB51's, while some retailers bashed them up and down for being for people who don't know what they are talking about. That dealer lost all credibility with me, as essentially he called me dumb and uneducated. Well, I will be spending my $$$ that somehow I managed to earn even though I am dumb somewhere else!

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post #36 of 59 Old 04-03-2013, 06:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by border411 View Post

And with those other comparisons I have heard my friends speakers which he built for dirt cheap that sound better TO ME than speakers I heard in some stores that cost well in excess for $2000. Like everyone says, speakers are subjective. These shootouts only explain how these speakers compare to that persons personal tastes. That is why I had to go and listen to the PSB B5's to see if I like the sound or not. Just because someone recommended them to me didn't mean that I would like them. Hell, I liked the Klipsch RB51's, while some retailers bashed them up and down for being for people who don't know what they are talking about. That dealer lost all credibility with me, as essentially he called me dumb and uneducated. Well, I will be spending my $$$ that somehow I managed to earn even though I am dumb somewhere else!

If a dealer bashes anything he doesn't sell, run out of there.
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post #37 of 59 Old 04-03-2013, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex-labdriver View Post

Well, I enjoy my Axioms for an hour or two at a time almost everyday. They don't make me run out of the room covering my ears after 10 minutes.

BTW, according to my net searches, I could find only 2 who mention tweeter ringing - you & that ninja dude. If there are more, then they are well buried.

If I can't perceive differences between power cords, speaker wires, cables, amps or a complete & expensive 10-tube change in my tube amp, then it is doubtful that I'll hear ringing. Sorry, but again I'm skeptical...

TAM

Cool but I never said Axioms would run you out of the room. Thats for any speaker not just Axiom.

I think in other posts I explained the tweeter ringing in some detail. But like I also said I never noticed until listening to other speaker in a serious session. Not a quick demo.

I can't perceive the differences in power cords, speaker wire, cables, receivers ect.... Its well know every speaker will sound different to another one. I do not buy into the "similarly good" bit for every speaker compared to every speaker. I'm sure Axiom guys would be pretty PO'd if a Bose owner said he felt his Acoustismass setup sounded similarly good to his friends Axiom Grand Master setup.
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post #38 of 59 Old 04-03-2013, 09:09 AM
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Of all of the components in the audio chain, of course speakers are the only ones that sound different from each other because they are electro-mechanical devices constructed of many different components In different configurations & producing wildly different measurements. As I've said before, from what I heard in the marketplace, they were all 'similarly good' with none standing out as being hugely superior to any others nor were there any clunkers either. I could have lived nicely with any of them but I chose what I chose.

If a Bose owner thinks that his setup is 'similarly good' to his ears compared to any others & it makes him happy, then I'm am more than OK with that. Personal satisfaction with your gear, that's what it is all about for me.

For many others here, everything is a ridiculous competition to the death that is determined solely by human subjective criteria. That's not my outlook on life I choose, purchase, enjoy & appreciate my gear for a long, long time. Unending upgraditis is not in my being...

TAM
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post #39 of 59 Old 04-03-2013, 09:14 AM
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Maybe no one here should mention axiom speakers as I would hate to see another thread locked. smile.gif

Still waiting to see the 3rd New Official Axiom Audio Thread. (just kidding....don't you dare) smile.gif
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post #40 of 59 Old 04-03-2013, 10:23 AM
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I've had Axiom M3s as L R speakers in one of my HT rooms for several years. While I like them, what the reviewer says about them seems plausible to me. They seemed to have strengthened bass, aimed at use without a sub. I do have a sub, though, and if I had it to do over again, I'd have gotten M2s, instead, saved myself a little money, and likely gotten a little better performance..

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post #41 of 59 Old 04-03-2013, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

I've had Axiom M3s as L R speakers in one of my HT rooms for several years. While I like them, what the reviewer says about them seems plausible to me. They seemed to have strengthened bass, aimed at use without a sub. I do have a sub, though, and if I had it to do over again, I'd have gotten M2s, instead, saved myself a little money, and likely gotten a little better performance..

Yup...when I was researching Axiom it was clear to me the M2 and M22's have linear responses allowing for a more neutral sound and better augment with a sub...of course I've never heard the M3 so I can't comment on it but many others who own Axiom shared that opinion. Not trying to say the M2 or M22 are hands down better just different and that worked for some folks.

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post #42 of 59 Old 04-03-2013, 10:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Don't know if you have read this but it's still an interesting whitepaper.

http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Documents/White%20Papers/LoudspeakersandRoomsPt2.pdf
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post #43 of 59 Old 04-03-2013, 02:48 PM
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Badouri...holy crap that was a good article. Never saw it before, and it explained to me. Thanks! But now my head hurts! =)

~Shaun
Yamaha RX-V765 / PSB B5's Fronts / PSB C4 Center / Micca R-65 In-Ceiling Rears / BIC F12 Sub
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post #44 of 59 Old 04-03-2013, 03:01 PM
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As I've stated elsewhere, I use the M3s on stands without a sub & are well suited that way.

My M2s are paired up with an EP400 that makes a killer little system for music. Because of the powerful bass extension, the M2 + sub is definitely preferable but of course much more expensive. Looks cool too...

TAM
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post #45 of 59 Old 04-11-2013, 08:53 AM - Thread Starter
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post #46 of 59 Old 04-11-2013, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Some say Paradigm and Axiom speakers have similar voicing...

Sound+Vision measurements Paradigm Atom Monitor


vs

Sound+Vision measurements Axiom M3v3


From http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/review-clash-minispeakers
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post #47 of 59 Old 04-11-2013, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badouri View Post

Some say Paradigm and Axiom speakers have similar voicing...

Similar yes, but the Paradigms are much much more refined sounding. The huge 120hrz hump is done on purpose with the M3 to give it the impression of bass, not actual bass. It begins to free fall at around 70-80hrz which should not be considered a "full" range bookshelf. The 5k issues are the woofer breaking up from running a stiff large metal cone driver to high.

I would say the M3 is only similar in pricing and nothing else. While I haven't heard the current version of the Monitors the last version was very nice sounding and had the typical treble sparkle but none of the frail shrillness.
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post #48 of 59 Old 04-11-2013, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

I would say the M3 is only similar in pricing and nothing else. While I haven't heard the current version of the Monitors the last version was very nice sounding and had the typical treble sparkle but none of the frail shrillness.
The M3 doesn't employ an internal crossover, right? I believe I read that before somewhere.

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post #49 of 59 Old 04-11-2013, 12:49 PM
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The M3 doesn't employ an internal crossover, right? I believe I read that before somewhere.

From what I understand its just a couple resistors and a cap for the tweeter, its an odd ball speaker thats for sure. It does roll off the top end, but not very clean. I'd really like to see someone get the T/S parameters from the 6.5" woofer from the M3 and the 6.5" woofer from M60-80. The specs should be quite a bit different. I would bet the M3s woofer is the exact same as the M60 and M80s bottom woofers and it was probably not designed as a true full range woofer. That would cost way to much to design a separate woofer just for the M3 so they don't need filters. All that effort to save the need for a penny filter?
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post #50 of 59 Old 04-11-2013, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

I would say the M3 is only similar in pricing and nothing else. While I haven't heard the current version of the Monitors the last version was very nice sounding and had the typical treble sparkle but none of the frail shrillness.
The M3 doesn't employ an internal crossover, right? I believe I read that before somewhere.

The published impedance curve suggests to me that there is an electrical crossover in near 2.4 KHz:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/manuals/M3%20_Single_Input.pdf

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post #51 of 59 Old 04-11-2013, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badouri View Post

Some say Paradigm and Axiom speakers have similar voicing...

Sound+Vision measurements Paradigm Atom Monitor


vs

Sound+Vision measurements Axiom M3v3


From http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/review-clash-minispeakers

Also:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/bookshelf-speakers/bookshelf-speakers/axiom-m3v3-bookshelf-speakers/all-pages.html



http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/speaker-subwoofer-reviews/35847-axiom-m3-v3-wall-speaker-review.html

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post #52 of 59 Old 04-11-2013, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

The published impedance curve suggests to me that there is an electrical crossover in near 2.4 KHz

I know the tweeter is crossed over but last I remember and from what i've read here and on the Axiom forum, the woofer is allowed to run "unrestrained" while the tweeter is only crossed over.

"It sounded like too much of the upper midrange and lower treble was coming from the 6.5-inch woofers, which will tend to "beam" at these higher frequencies." S&V.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/review-axiom-audio-m3v3
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post #53 of 59 Old 04-11-2013, 01:43 PM
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It appears that the positive experiences that the reviewers from HT HiFi & HTS had with the M3s kinda mirrors what I hear with mine.

They sound just fine without a sub but as with any bookshelf, a sub would work too...

TAM
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post #54 of 59 Old 04-11-2013, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

The published impedance curve suggests to me that there is an electrical crossover in near 2.4 KHz

I know the tweeter is crossed over but last I remember and from what i've read here and on the Axiom forum, the woofer is allowed to run "unrestrained" while the tweeter is only crossed over.

"It sounded like too much of the upper midrange and lower treble was coming from the 6.5-inch woofers, which will tend to "beam" at these higher frequencies." S&V.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/review-axiom-audio-m3v3

This can happen. Sometimes a driver's impedance is rising in the crossover range to the extent that the actual crossover slope is less than expected.

This speaker seems to have a split identity - one with rough response in the 5 KHz range and one that doesn't. Some reviewers find the roughness, while the manufacturer and other reviewers does not.

Given that it has plenty of good competition with just one personality each and nice personalities at that, I think I know how I would invest my money were I in this marketplace.
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post #55 of 59 Old 04-11-2013, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

This can happen. Sometimes a driver's impedance is rising in the crossover range to the extent that the actual crossover slope is less than expected.

This speaker seems to have a split identity - one with rough response in the 5 KHz range and one that doesn't. Some reviewers find the roughness, while the manufacturer and other reviewers does not.

Given that it has plenty of good competition with just one personality each and nice personalities at that, I think I know how I would invest my money were I in this marketplace.

I don't know if you read the Sound+Vision review, but the "defective" and "repaired" M3v3 speakers are puzzling...
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post #56 of 59 Old 04-11-2013, 04:25 PM
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A quick spin around the web for M3 reviews - and there are a lot of them since this speaker has been around for a decade or so in several iterations - reveals almost nothing wrt a 'split personality'.

In fact, overwhelmingly it is highly thought of & deservedly so...

TAM
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post #57 of 59 Old 04-11-2013, 04:32 PM
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^^^ Maybe Axiom forgot to send the extra-special review copy to Sound&Vision?

biggrin.gif

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post #58 of 59 Old 04-11-2013, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

^^^ Maybe Axiom forgot to send the extra-special review copy to Sound&Vision?

biggrin.gif

Seems like it made no difference between being defective or being fixed by the owner/engineer. Definitely won't see Axiom fans referencing this review at all, i'm honestly surprised they have called S&V out for being biased or something. I guess when a company spends years telling everyone that their speaker are similarly good to much more expensive high end brands, but then comes in last place with cheaper/similar priced speakers, thats gotta sting alittle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ex-labdriver View Post

A quick spin around the web for M3 reviews - and there are a lot of them since this speaker has been around for a decade or so in several iterations - reveals almost nothing wrt a 'split personality'.

In fact, overwhelmingly it is highly thought of & deservedly so...

Every product thats reviewed is highly thought of, doesn't mean it actually is though. Its just review sites doing their thing to make money. Always wondered what some of them think about stuff off the record. Maybe the truely love the Axioms or maybe the hate them but got to keep quiet in fear of losing ad money. Never know.
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post #59 of 59 Old 04-11-2013, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex-labdriver View Post

A quick spin around the web for M3 reviews - and there are a lot of them since this speaker has been around for a decade or so in several iterations - reveals almost nothing wrt a 'split personality'.

In fact, overwhelmingly it is highly thought of & deservedly so...

TAM

SoundStage! reviewed the Axiom Audio Millennia M3Ti in 2000



http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/axiom_m3ti/
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