Psb T5's don't sound quite right ... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 04-01-2013, 12:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey there. I've just replaced my surround sound system ( for the most part ) with PSB image speakers. I've heard so much about them, that I went ahead and bought them without listening first.. ( Dumb ). I got a great deal online, on Canuck Audio Mart, from a very respected seller, of 7 month old T5's for 450 cash. They are in pristine condition. So far so good. Before I hooked them up I went out and bought the C5 and B5's to add to the system. I hooked it all up, but the towers don't seem quite as full as my last speakers. I DID have Fluance speakers, which were in fact a bit bigger, but the center and surrounds were weak, and as I couldn't mix and match, I just switched all of them ( and sold them ). In any case I thought it was my imagination at first. The sound is much more clear and crisp, with subtleties much more noticeable, but I'm definitely missing the OOMPH of my old towers. I ran auddessy on my Denon 1913, which hasn't failed me up until this point, and as expected it picked up on the deep crossover frequencies of the C5 and B5's, setting them at 40hz each, but recognized the towers as small ( unsual for towers ) and gave me a 60hz crossover. I should at this point mention that of course I don't use those settings, I usually set all the speakers to 80hz crossover, and indeed set the fronts to small anyways. I just find it unusual, given my already skeptical listening experience with respect to the towers, that they'd actually be picked up as small with a higher crossover then the bookshelf or center speakers. I re checked all the wiring making sure they were in phase, to no avail.
As mentioned they ARE a bit smaller then my previous speakers, although ostensibly held to a MUCH higher standard in manufacturing specifications. Could it be that the taller speakers were shooting sound a little higher giving me a better sense of height?
They DO sound very crisp and clear that being said, maybe I've just got to get used to them? ( I was kind of hoping to get blown away for the 1500 I spent on them over my last speakers )
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post #2 of 29 Old 04-01-2013, 06:46 AM
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Audyessy is not perfect. It is best to run the room correction then check the information manually. My Rc- 70 were given a cross over of 60hz and my Athena b2 bookshelves were given a crossover of 40 hz. Find a graph for the frequency response and see where it starts to roll off, as well as look at the graph that Audyessy spits out. At this point compare the two and see if there is any room gain or any nodes/nulls at the listening position and set the crossover from there.
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post #3 of 29 Old 04-01-2013, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

Hey there. I've just replaced my surround sound system ( for the most part ) with PSB image speakers. I've heard so much about them, that I went ahead and bought them without listening first.. ( Dumb ).

Don't be so hard on yourself, as speakers can sound quite different in your home than in the store, anyway, particularly with regard to bass response.

By the way, I responded to your other thread regarding the T5s here:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1464076/will-switching-from-16-gauge-to-12-gauge-make-any-difference/0_100#post_23150801

It was a good idea to open a new thread because maybe you can get more help this way. Respond to my post in the other thread in here instead.
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I thought it was my imagination at first. The sound is much more clear and crisp, with subtleties much more noticeable, but I'm definitely missing the OOMPH of my old towers. I ran auddessy on my Denon 1913, which hasn't failed me up until this point, and as expected it picked up on the deep crossover frequencies of the C5 and B5's, setting them at 40hz each,

The C5 and B5s must be getting considerable bass reinforcement from the walls or other objects, while the T5s' bass may be hurt by nulls.
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look at the graph that Audyessy spits out. At this point compare the two and see if there is any room gain or any nodes/nulls at the listening position and set the crossover from there.

Great idea--look for a range in the bass for which either the bass dips down sharply and rises again as it gets lower, or where it dips down way too high in frequency, like 60-70 Hz, where the T5s should still still be going strong. This could indicate a null that you should be able to move up or down in frequency simply by moving the speakers.
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post #4 of 29 Old 04-01-2013, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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I've got to run to work, but just had time to take these pictures of, I THINK, what you guys are talking about. I'll elaborate more on you're experiment suggestions when I get home Robert, ( short shift tonight ) .. In the mean time, I'll show you guys these to see what you can glean from them:

Front Left ( top ) and Right ( Bottom )

Center


Surround Left and Right


Rear left and right


I'll respond to the rest of your queries as soon as I'm back! -
I know that these are a little blurry but it's about the best I can do smile.gif Is this what you were talking about?
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post #5 of 29 Old 04-01-2013, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
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I can't help but wonder, based on experience (albeit none with the Fluance SX series), whether you're just used to sloppy bass. Now, I do not know what is going on in your case at this point, but if what I just said happens to be true, then this wouldn't be the first time that I've seen such a reaction to higher-end speakers, and I've been down that road myself.

It's entirely possible. I actually went by the place I picked up the centers and bookshelves to ask the sales manager his theory or recommendations on my dilemma. He gave me a couple of scenario's, and the above was one of them. He told me, ruling out an actual problem, that in a week after listening to these I wouldn't be able to actually go back to my old speakers, precisely because of the clarity of the T5's, and the fact that quite often a switch takes some getting used to. Fair enough. I also got him to play his floor model T5's so I could compare, and although he didn't have a sub hooked up to his, they sounded fairly similar to mine. Other suggestions were that the binding posts weren't tight, and to try wiring the positive on the top set and the negative on the bottom set of posts just to rule that out as a problem. Check and Check, no difference.

Did you place the T5s in the same locations that had been occupied by the Fluance towers? How far away are they from the front and side walls? Placement can wreak havoc on sound quality, and with bass frequencies there can be "nulls" that develop that room correction systems cannot fix.

They're in the exact locations as the last system. The bookshelves are of course closer to the walls, and their rear firing port surely adds to their base output. The center is under my TV in a cabinet, However it's a large cabinet with no other obstructions, and the center is crystal clear so I don't have a problem with it at all. The difference with the fronts, although in the same location, about 1.5 feet away from the back wall, is that they have a front firing port, as opposed to two rear firing ports on the Fluance. I wonder if this could account for some of the fluctuations I'm experiencing between the two sets of towers?... e.i. the base isn't reflecting off the rear wall as before?

1. Try playing them one at a time (with no other speakers playing) to make sure that they sound the same.
2. or now, you could try raising the T5s up to the same tweeter height to find out whether this makes a significant difference (I do find myself that higher, to a point, sounds bigger).

1a. Yup, I just now tried playing them individually and they sounded the same.
2a. I raised them up, and I THINK it made a small improvement, but then again it might be my imagination!

How much time do you have with the C5 and B5s? We can use that time to troubleshoot your issues.

Well I've got 15 days, but I'll be subject to a 20 percent restocking fee if I go this route, which is 200 bucks straight off the top. So now this is definitely the last resort.

I'm going to re run audyssey and clear my coffee table out of the way this time to see if I get a better response from the fronts.
Ok, Time lapse smile.gif I re ran it, and got the exact same settings for everything. Fronts small, at 60hz, center and sides at 40, and surround rears at 120.

It might be worth mentioning that the guy at the audio store told me that my subwoofer sucked, and I should just set the fronts to large and let them handle all the low frequency effect, and get rid of the sub. I tried it, didn't really like it, so the sub stays smile.gif. Could be that the sub isn't blending well with the speakers, it's an older Denon DSW 391. It seems to do the job that being said, it's only 100 watts, but I live in an apartment anyways ( albeit with thick walls ). Anyways I doubt that has anything to do with it just thought I'd mention it.

It could very well be in a week I'll be head over heals with this system. That audyssey crossover setting does bother me though.
I did try this test out with my center disconnected, and was able to hear the test tone almost immediately at 20 - 30 hz though: http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_frequencychecklow.php

Here's the Image Specs, with the T5 rated at 30hz, lower then all the other speakers, wonder why I'm not getting it ? ( apparently )



One last note... as I sit here at 1 15 in the morning, listening to one of my favorite albums downloaded in FLAC, I'm starting to come around. This album sounds ridiculously good right now...
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post #6 of 29 Old 04-02-2013, 04:00 AM
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I forgot to mention something in regards to bass. There is a certain tolerance for distortion in the lower frequencies. Adding distortion to the lower bass makes it sound as if it hits harder however you lose clarity. It could be that the distortion the fluance speaker were creating in the lower frequencies made them appear better for bass. In your case you made a massive change in quality and it is possible that the change is so great and you were used to listening to the fluance so now that you have speakers capable of producing music so much more accurately the music sounds "foreign".

Just a theory but it could be. The L/R graph from audyessy appears very small and i have a hard time seeing it. Not sure if its the same resolution as the other pictures or if its just my screen.
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post #7 of 29 Old 04-02-2013, 06:29 AM
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First, I have been a fan of PSB speakers for quite a while, and I think they are the best value in the speaker market. Secondly, I'm surprised as one of the things I like about PSB is how they handle bass.
I have not really listened to Fluance speakers, so I am a bit out of line here, but the difference may be in your expectations of what the speaker should sound like.

Many people think a "bassier" or more "oomph" speaker is better, but the true test is how accurately it reproduces the sound. So, listen to your favorite music, hopefully an artist that you've seen live. Now listen and compare to how it would sound if you were in front of the "live stage". Many people listen to music with strong bass, but this is not how it is played or sounds in reality. Remember, the better the speaker, the better it reproduces the true sound.

I have been through this same issue, I purchased "better" speakers and seemed let down. But it took some time to realize that I was listening to a more accurate reproduction of the music. Listen for other things from the speakers. As for the bass, can you hear the bass guitar string "plucks"? Can you hear each "note" (not thump)? By its nature, bass is intended to "support" the music with a rythmic foundation, not overpower it. I would try to listen to see how distinct the bass notes are, not how powerful they sound.

Sometimes I have to remind myself that I bought all this "stuff" to enjoy it!
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post #8 of 29 Old 04-02-2013, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

In the mean time, I'll show you guys these to see what you can glean from them:

Front Left ( top ) and Right ( Bottom )

There are no indications in these graphs of any major anomalies in the bass and mid-bass ranges, which is good, of course. Because these represent Audyssey's filter settings, however, I don't think that they show much that is meaningful below the crossover frequency. On the one hand, when crossing over at 80 Hz, you appear to have nothing to worry about despite what Audyssey says should be the crossover frequency of the T5s, but on the other hand we're still in the dark about why it is so high. There is probably a null below 60 Hz, which could result from placing the speakers about 4-5 feet from a wall, for example. How far are your T5s from the side walls?
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I actually went by the place I picked up the centers and bookshelves to ask the sales manager his theory or recommendations on my dilemma. He gave me a couple of scenario's, and the above was one of them. He told me, ruling out an actual problem, that in a week after listening to these I wouldn't be able to actually go back to my old speakers, precisely because of the clarity of the T5's, and the fact that quite often a switch takes some getting used to. Fair enough.

Coming from a sales manager it can sound a bit presumptuous, but many if not most of us can confirm this effect from firsthand experience. The bass is there (at least over 60 Hz in your case), but it's just not "bloated" and exaggerated like it was before. After a while you get used to it, eventually realizing how much more realistic it is, and from then on you couldn't tolerate your old system anymore. This is such a common and time-tested phenomenon that I have difficulty believing that it doesn't at least play some part in what you're experiencing. However, the question is whether there are other factors at play, as well.
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I also got him to play his floor model T5's so I could compare, and although he didn't have a sub hooked up to his, they sounded fairly similar to mine.Other suggestions were that the binding posts weren't tight, and to try wiring the positive on the top set and the negative on the bottom set of posts just to rule that out as a problem. Check and Check, no difference.

Looks like your T5s are working properly.
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The difference with the fronts, although in the same location, about 1.5 feet away from the back wall, is that they have a front firing port, as opposed to two rear firing ports on the Fluance. I wonder if this could account for some of the fluctuations I'm experiencing between the two sets of towers?... e.i. the base isn't reflecting off the rear wall as before?

This could potentially explain the difference between the T5s and the Fluance towers, but it still doesn't tell us why Audyssey thinks that the T5s don't have much output below 60 Hz. Maybe it doesn't matter now, though. Try moving them a bit closer to the front wall to find out whether that makes a difference. How far are they from the side walls, by the way?
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1a. Yup, I just now tried playing them individually and they sounded the same.
2a. I raised them up, and I THINK it made a small improvement, but then again it might be my imagination!

Well I've got 15 days, but I'll be subject to a 20 percent restocking fee if I go this route, which is 200 bucks straight off the top. So now this is definitely the last resort.

I'm not sure that I fully understand, but in any case give your new system as much time to grow on you as you can or are willing to, and then decide. Keep in mind that the same thing could potentially happen if you upgrade to the Fluance XL series, as well.

In retrospect, I should have explicitly advised you earlier to wait until you listened to the T5s before buying the other speakers, but I had assumed that you would do that anyway. I was rather surprised when I learned that you had already bought the C5 and B5s. Anyway, what's done is done, and you need to give your new system a chance.
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It might be worth mentioning that the guy at the audio store told me that my subwoofer sucked, and I should just set the fronts to large and let them handle all the low frequency effect, and get rid of the sub. I tried it, didn't really like it, so the sub stays smile.gif.

His suggestion might have worked if the T5s had deeper bass extension in your room, but apparently something is going on there. Try moving them away from the side walls and rerunning Audyssey to see what happens.
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It could very well be in a week I'll be head over heals with this system. That audyssey crossover setting does bother me though.
I did try this test out with my center disconnected, and was able to hear the test tone almost immediately at 20 - 30 hz though: http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_frequencychecklow.php

What about at 40-50 Hz? Run a frequency sweep and measure it with your ears. smile.gif Does it drop out while in a certain range and then become louder again?
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Here's the Image Specs, with the T5 rated at 30hz, lower then all the other speakers, wonder why I'm not getting it ? ( apparently )

Audyssey appears to stop when it gets to any nulls, and set the crossover frequency right there. You may think that you have it bad, but take a look at this other case that I helped out with recently:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1464678/nad-t775hds-audyssey-multieq-xt-sets-my-klipsch-rf-5-crossover-to-180hz-whats-wrong/0_100

That's about as bad as it can get, but I think that we managed to get it straightened out for all practical purposes.
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One last note... as I sit here at 1 15 in the morning, listening to one of my favorite albums downloaded in FLAC, I'm starting to come around. This album sounds ridiculously good right now...

That's good--give it (yourself, really) some more time to adjust.
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Originally Posted by bizwiz41 View Post

I have been through this same issue, I purchased "better" speakers and seemed let down. But it took some time to realize that I was listening to a more accurate reproduction of the music. Listen for other things from the speakers. As for the bass, can you hear the bass guitar string "plucks"? Can you hear each "note" (not thump)? By its nature, bass is intended to "support" the music with a rythmic foundation, not overpower it. I would try to listen to see how distinct the bass notes are, not how powerful they sound.

I'm pretty sure that most of us (unless we bought great speakers from the start) have gone through this learning process. As for sounding powerful, good bass should have all of the "punch" and "slam" that is on the recording, but it should also be clean--starting and stopping quickly--and will therefore contain less energy on the average than muddy bass. My first system was the worst in this regard--boomy, one-note bass with a significant boost coming from processing in the receiver. It sounded "impressive" at first and even would today in certain ways, but it's not accurate and definitely not of good quality.
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post #9 of 29 Old 04-02-2013, 10:30 AM - Thread Starter
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I forgot to mention something in regards to bass. There is a certain tolerance for distortion in the lower frequencies. Adding distortion to the lower bass makes it sound as if it hits harder however you lose clarity. It could be that the distortion the fluance speaker were creating in the lower frequencies made them appear better for bass. In your case you made a massive change in quality and it is possible that the change is so great and you were used to listening to the fluance so now that you have speakers capable of producing music so much more accurately the music sounds "foreign".

Just a theory but it could be. The L/R graph from audyessy appears very small and i have a hard time seeing it. Not sure if its the same resolution as the other pictures or if its just my screen.

I'm starting to lean in this direction as well. I just received an email reply from PSB suggesting I swap the front and the side surrounds to see if the auddessy settings followed the speakers or not. To my surprise, they did not. With my B5's at the front and my T5's at the sides, Auddesey set all my speakers at Full Range on the first run through, and rated them all at 40hz crossover on the second. The only difference in positioning was that the B5's ( now at the front ) were a little closer to the TV, and, as not toed in, about half a foot closer to the back wall. The right Front usually sits at an angle ( as there is a slight to in), also about 8 inches further out from the tv, ( as is the left front) . As a result, the rear of that particular speaker angles towards a large window with curtains. This, coupled with the fact that the B5's have a rear bass port, while the fronts have a front port, might explain poorer resonance from the T5's in their natural position at the front, no?
She also asked what receiver I was using, and whether I had another to test, in case the receiver wasn't outputting enough power to the fronts. I don't, but sent her the specs, which can be found here: http://reviews.cnet.com/av-receivers/denon-avr-1913/4507-6466_7-35284898.html I don't think it's the receiver doing it anyways, but thought I'd include that in this reply for posterity. I also sent her a drawing of my room layout, ( amateurish as it is ). Here's the exact e-mail I received from them: Thank you for contacting the PSB Speakers Support Centre.

Try swapping the B5's and T5's to see if the Audyssey setting's following the speaker and don't stay with the front channels.

When you do not use a subwoofer, the bass get's added to the front Left and Right Channels so this could be an effect of the receivers processing. Meaning when you turn the sub "on" it is trying to take more then what is needed to let the receiver play louder (the more demand you can shift to another amplifier the more power that is saved for the other channels).

Would you happen to have another receiver to try the speakers on?

What size of room is your set-up in?

What is the amplifiers power rating?

Kind regards,


Here's another picture of the fronts:

All in and I'm leaning towards what a combination of what all three of you, Robert, Biz and Petden, have said, In that 1. I'm not used to the new clearer sound and the muddy base made the old speakers seem louder, and 2. I might have some room issues.
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post #10 of 29 Old 04-02-2013, 10:56 AM
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....All in and I'm leaning towards what a combination of what all three of you, Robert, Biz and Petden, have said, In that 1. I'm not used to the new clearer sound and the muddy base made the old speakers seem louder, and 2. I might have some room issues.

Is the issue that the "old" Fluances "seemed louder"? Remember, overpowering bass can make a media sound louder. We all remember our parents saying "turn that down", which was a direct correlation to the thumping bass.

Second, just to be complete in your investigation and comparison; are you 100% certain that the Audyssey mic is the correct one for your receiver? There have bee a couple of "oops" in the actual mics that ended up with receivers.

Remember that your PSBs are "new", the difference in audio quality after the "break in" can be tremendous. I've been through this as well, when at first let down by my purchase, then one day saying "Wow, they sound good". In short, you do have somewhat of an apples to oranges comparison going on right now.

One last question, when you went back to the store and heard the "demo" speakers (which you remarked sounded like your own), were you happy with the sound of them? Perhaps the PSBs are just not an ideal match for your ear....

Sometimes I have to remind myself that I bought all this "stuff" to enjoy it!
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post #11 of 29 Old 04-02-2013, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Is the issue that the "old" Fluances "seemed louder"? Remember, overpowering bass can make a media sound louder. We all remember our parents saying "turn that down", which was a direct correlation to the thumping bass.

It could be, but then I have no way of comparing them, as I sold my fluance set the day after I bought the T5's.

Second, just to be complete in your investigation and comparison; are you 100% certain that the Audyssey mic is the correct one for your receiver? There have bee a couple of "oops" in the actual mics that ended up with receivers.

I haven't checked in to that, but it had no problem setting up my last surround sound system - It LOOKS like the auddesey mic that is supplied with the Denon 1913 series anyways.

Remember that your PSBs are "new", the difference in audio quality after the "break in" can be tremendous. I've been through this as well, when at first let down by my purchase, then one day saying "Wow, they sound good". In short, you do have somewhat of an apples to oranges comparison going on right now.

This is true, however the C5's and B5's are brand new, but I picked up the T5's used ( 7 months old ), and they are ostensibly already broken in. One of the purposes of these tests and the thread is to rule out there being some actual internal physical damage to them. That being said, as mentioned in a previous post, I bought them from a very well respected seller on Canuck Audio Mart, they were packaged like they just came from the store, and look brand new. I know that doesn't mean much, but again he's got tons of amazing feedback.

One last question, when you went back to the store and heard the "demo" speakers (which you remarked sounded like your own), were you happy with the sound of them? Perhaps the PSBs are just not an ideal match for your ear....

I'm certainly afraid that this is the case. I must say the sound is growing on me, and last night was pretty blown away with a new Beach house album I downloaded in FLAC. So maybe they'll grow until I'm super impressed. I HOPE the latter is true, not the former. When I was down at best buy looking for some speaker mounts ( they didn't have any decent ones ) I DID happen to walk by a pair of big polk audio speakers, and thought to myself " this is how I was expecting my new speakers to sound " ... but then again they could have similar characteristics to the Fluance, and I was just recognizing distorted lows... I certainly hope that is also the case. I believe these are the speakers I walked by in retrospect: [URL=http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/polk-audio-polk-audio-tower-speaker-t600-single-speaker-t600/10166615.aspx?
path=b0548affa300e236b4bb965879ca63e2en02&SearchPageIndex=1]http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/polk-audio-polk-audio-tower-speaker-t600-single-speaker-t600/10166615.aspx?path=b0548affa300e236b4bb965879ca63e2en02&SearchPageIndex=1[/URL]

In any case, there's a 20 % re stocking fee if I DID take the C5's and B5's back, which would translate to 200 dollars right off the bat. I would then have to go through the hassle of re selling the T5's... I'm really hoping I get used to them / see improvement / figure out maybe a room issue.
Again, they ARE growing on me.
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post #12 of 29 Old 04-02-2013, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

I'm certainly afraid that this is the case. I must say the sound is growing on me, and last night was pretty blown away with a new Beach house album I downloaded in FLAC. So maybe they'll grow until I'm super impressed. I HOPE the latter is true, not the former. When I was down at best buy looking for some speaker mounts ( they didn't have any decent ones ) I DID happen to walk by a pair of big polk audio speakers, and thought to myself " this is how I was expecting my new speakers to sound " ... but then again they could have similar characteristics to the Fluance, and I was just recognizing distorted lows... I certainly hope that is also the case. I believe these are the speakers I walked by in retrospect: [URL=http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/polk-audio-polk-audio-tower-speaker-t600-single-speaker-t600/10166615.aspx?
path=b0548affa300e236b4bb965879ca63e2en02&SearchPageIndex=1]http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/polk-audio-polk-audio-tower-speaker-t600-single-speaker-t600/10166615.aspx?path=b0548affa300e236b4bb965879ca63e2en02&SearchPageIndex=1[/URL]

In any case, there's a 20 % re stocking fee if I DID take the C5's and B5's back, which would translate to 200 dollars right off the bat. I would then have to go through the hassle of re selling the T5's... I'm really hoping I get used to them / see improvement / figure out maybe a room issue.
Again, they ARE growing on me.

I do know what you are going through in this dilemma, I've been there, and I'm going through it again now! I have been going back and forth (from my own collection of speakers) for fronts between two PSB models and the Boston Acoustics I've been using for a while. The specs, reviews, cost!, all say the Bostons "should be" better. But my hears seem to prefer the PSB models (especially for music). I will say that my PSBs did take some breaking in, and some time to realize the bass was more "accurate" than "boomy" speakers.

As a comparison, in my bedroom are my "vintage" Snell Acoustics, and every time I listen to them I say "YES!", they sound great. What gets to me is that they sound great no matter if it's TV, CD, Pandora, any media. They are connected to the "cheapest" receiver, and they are definitely not "positioned". They have all the strikes against them but sound fantastic.

I hope this makes you feel better; one of my other threads started because I was unhappy with my Polks as surrounds. In my opinion, Polk is not what it used to be. I've owned "older" Polk Monitors and thought they were great. I have Polks in my "collection" now. However, I have been very disappointed in Polks for the last few years.

For fun, you may want to audition some BIC Venturi speakers, I think they may have the sound quality you prefer. Though I do find them similar to the PSB models.

In the end, the best advice I can give is: "go with your gut"

Sometimes I have to remind myself that I bought all this "stuff" to enjoy it!
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post #13 of 29 Old 04-02-2013, 02:17 PM
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Sean,

Just for fun....why don't you try the B5s as fronts? Just see how they sound to you (in stereo mode) with the same album. You noted in your first post that Audyssey picked up lower frequencies on them, so see if (standing alone) you like their sound, and how it compares to the T5s.....it can't hurt to experiment

Sometimes I have to remind myself that I bought all this "stuff" to enjoy it!
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Well to be honest, I don't see what the point in auditioning my bookshelves at the front would be, as I couldn't use the towers as surrounds, they'd fire right in to the sides of my couch for the most part. If I was happier with the sound, it would mean selling the t5s and getting another set of bookshelves to replace them with. But I don't really want bookshelves for front speakers, and don't feel I should be having to compromise after having spent 1500 dollars on new speakers. The only three options I see at this point are 1. Get used to the sound, 2. Sell the t5s and buy t6 towers, or 3. Take the speakers back to the store and swallow the 200 dollar restocking fee, to try to get speakers I'm happier with. Tough decision.
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Well you have roughly 2 weeks to decide what you will do. I can tell you that the polks are ok. I sent a friend up with them when they were on a massive sale and he seems to like them. I find the highs a little harsh though and in general just not too much of a fan of their tweeter. The mids are ok as well nothing special. I dont see the value at >$700 pair. Again this is for you to decide. some people just like hard hitting bass in everything, and that's fine. I would demo more speakers some with larger woofers some with smaller, see what you think then make a decision.
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I'd try them in 2 channel mode with Audessey OFF and then see how they sound. Just because your AVR has ARC software that doesn't mean you NEED to or SHOULD be using it. Kind of like leaving stability/traction control on when taking your sports car to the track. It generally does more harm than good.

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Originally Posted by Petden View Post

Well you have roughly 2 weeks to decide what you will do. I can tell you that the polks are ok. I sent a friend up with them when they were on a massive sale and he seems to like them. I find the highs a little harsh though and in general just not too much of a fan of their tweeter. The mids are ok as well nothing special. I dont see the value at >$700 pair. Again this is for you to decide. some people just like hard hitting bass in everything, and that's fine. I would demo more speakers some with larger woofers some with smaller, see what you think then make a decision.
.

Well I don't have my heart set on polks, I just used them as a reference in response to a question about my tastes, and was more happenstance that I walked by them and thought they sounded good. Truth be told, I had my heart set on the psb speakers. One option I thought I could try, was to see if I could get the store where I bought them to wave the restock fee if I promised to spend more on a different set of speakers. So I bought the c5 and b5 there for about 900, but bought the
T5 used for 450. If I sold the T5s for the same price, and put that towards the 900 credit I'd have, then budgeted an extra 150, I could say look, exchange these for me sans restocking fee and ill spend 1500 at your store for something else. They also sell kef and monitor. That's an option too.
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post #18 of 29 Old 04-02-2013, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Robert Cook View Post

There are no indications in these graphs of any major anomalies in the bass and mid-bass ranges, which is good, of course. Because these represent Audyssey's filter settings, however, I don't think that they show much that is meaningful below the crossover frequency. On the one hand, when crossing over at 80 Hz, you appear to have nothing to worry about despite what Audyssey says should be the crossover frequency of the T5s, but on the other hand we're still in the dark about why it is so high. There is probably a null below 60 Hz, which could result from placing the speakers about 4-5 feet from a wall, for example. How far are your T5s from the side walls?
Coming from a sales manager it can sound a bit presumptuous, but many if not most of us can confirm this effect from firsthand experience. The bass is there (at least over 60 Hz in your case), but it's just not "bloated" and exaggerated like it was before. After a while you get used to it, eventually realizing how much more realistic it is, and from then on you couldn't tolerate your old system anymore. This is such a common and time-tested phenomenon that I have difficulty believing that it doesn't at least play some part in what you're experiencing. However, the question is whether there are other factors at play, as well.
Looks like your T5s are working properly.
This could potentially explain the difference between the T5s and the Fluance towers, but it still doesn't tell us why Audyssey thinks that the T5s don't have much output below 60 Hz. Maybe it doesn't matter now, though. Try moving them a bit closer to the front wall to find out whether that makes a difference. How far are they from the side walls, by the way?
I'm not sure that I fully understand, but in any case give your new system as much time to grow on you as you can or are willing to, and then decide. Keep in mind that the same thing could potentially happen if you upgrade to the Fluance XL series, as well.

In retrospect, I should have explicitly advised you earlier to wait until you listened to the T5s before buying the other speakers, but I had assumed that you would do that anyway. I was rather surprised when I learned that you had already bought the C5 and B5s. Anyway, what's done is done, and you need to give your new system a chance.
His suggestion might have worked if the T5s had deeper bass extension in your room, but apparently something is going on there. Try moving them away from the side walls and rerunning Audyssey to see what happens.
What about at 40-50 Hz? Run a frequency sweep and measure it with your ears. smile.gif Does it drop out while in a certain range and then become louder again?
Audyssey appears to stop when it gets to any nulls, and set the crossover frequency right there. You may think that you have it bad, but take a look at this other case that I helped out with recently:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1464678/nad-t775hds-audyssey-multieq-xt-sets-my-klipsch-rf-5-crossover-to-180hz-whats-wrong/0_100

That's about as bad as it can get, but I think that we managed to get it straightened out for all practical purposes.
That's good--give it (yourself, really) some more time to adjust.
I'm pretty sure that most of us (unless we bought great speakers from the start) have gone through this learning process. As for sounding powerful, good bass should have all of the "punch" and "slam" that is on the recording, but it should also be clean--starting and stopping quickly--and will therefore contain less energy on the average than muddy bass. My first system was the worst in this regard--boomy, one-note bass with a significant boost coming from processing in the receiver. It sounded "impressive" at first and even would today in certain ways, but it's not accurate and definitely not of good quality.

Robert, I completely somehow missed this post. One thing about this process so far, is that I hate sounding like a flakey customer who wouldn't know good sound if it kicked him in the face. It unfortunately might very well be just that, in which case id feel pretty silly. Working in the customer service field myself, I definitely don't want to be THAT guy.
The one upshot for the sales manager I dealt with, a real solid guy, is that he'd be netting a couple more bucks commission if I followed through with my idea in the last post. Of course then again, I might end up buying an inferior set of speakers, because they sounded more to my liking, which is skewed anyways because I'm not used to clear crisp sounds.
I must say I would completely buy into this idea if it weren't for those darn auddesey settings, which may or may not be indicitave of poor placement, a speaker problem, or mean nothing at all!
I did set the t5s up before I bought the rest of the set, and noticed what I thought to be smaller sound, but was absolutely convinced that the only reason for this was I didn't have the center or surrounds hooked up yet, so went and bought them.
The difference between the surrounds and fronts with respect to placoement is minimal, other then the fronts being slightly further away then the surrounds. I will however try in the exact spot I had the b5s when I get home to see if it picks up on their low frequency. I just can't get the nagging feeling out of my head that there is a problem with them, even though alp results, other then auddesey point to this not being the case. I won't make any rash decisions this time around, but it might be worth floating the idea mentioned in the last post by the sales manager, just so I know what my options are. I'm not giving up on the psb's yet.
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post #19 of 29 Old 04-02-2013, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

When I was down at best buy looking for some speaker mounts ( they didn't have any decent ones ) I DID happen to walk by a pair of big polk audio speakers, and thought to myself " this is how I was expecting my new speakers to sound " ... but then again they could have similar characteristics to the Fluance, and I was just recognizing distorted lows... I certainly hope that is also the case. I believe these are the speakers I walked by in retrospect: [URL=http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/polk-audio-polk-audio-tower-speaker-t600-single-speaker-t600/10166615.aspx?
path=b0548affa300e236b4bb965879ca63e2en02&SearchPageIndex=1]http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/polk-audio-polk-audio-tower-speaker-t600-single-speaker-t600/10166615.aspx?path=b0548affa300e236b4bb965879ca63e2en02&SearchPageIndex=1[/URL]

That looks exactly like the Monitor 60 (pointlessly renamed for the Canadian market, it appears). Its bass isn't exactly the cleanest, just OK, but this series (even the towers) never struck me as having strong-sounding bass output, distorted or otherwise. And I'm not the only one who thinks so, based on the comments in the following thread, for instance:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1296564/anyone-else-unimpressed-with-polk-monitor-50-60-70/0_100

I've always said that we all hear differently, although this case seems pretty extreme to me. confused.gif
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Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

In any case, there's a 20 % re stocking fee if I DID take the C5's and B5's back, which would translate to 200 dollars right off the bat. I would then have to go through the hassle of re selling the T5's... I'm really hoping I get used to them / see improvement / figure out maybe a room issue.

Move those T5s around a bit, as I had suggested in my last post--closer to the closest wall and farther from the next-closest walls (one move at a time, then both) to find out what happens.
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Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

Well to be honest, I don't see what the point in auditioning my bookshelves at the front would be, as I couldn't use the towers as surrounds, they'd fire right in to the sides of my couch for the most part. If I was happier with the sound, it would mean selling the t5s and getting another set of bookshelves to replace them with. But I don't really want bookshelves for front speakers, and don't feel I should be having to compromise after having spent 1500 dollars on new speakers.

My general view is that ultimately we should all do whatever works best for us. Bookshelf speakers at the front work fine for many people, myself included, and if a particular bookshelf speaker happens to work better for you than a particular tower does, hypothetically speaking, then I say go with it.
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Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

The only three options I see at this point are 1. Get used to the sound, 2. Sell the t5s and buy t6 towers, or 3. Take the speakers back to the store and swallow the 200 dollar restocking fee, to try to get speakers I'm happier with. Tough decision.

I doubt that the T6 would sound much different from the T5 to you--it's possible, but they're supposed to sound similar, and the T5 is not known (as far as I'm aware) to be weak on bass. Give your new T5s every opportunity to grow on you, but there is still the possibility, as I'm sure you're aware, that for some unexplained reason their bass just doesn't sound right to you.
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Well you have roughly 2 weeks to decide what you will do. I can tell you that the polks are ok. I sent a friend up with them when they were on a massive sale and he seems to like them. I find the highs a little harsh though and in general just not too much of a fan of their tweeter. The mids are ok as well nothing special. I dont see the value at >$700 pair. Again this is for you to decide. some people just like hard hitting bass in everything, and that's fine. I would demo more speakers some with larger woofers some with smaller, see what you think then make a decision.

That's the thing, though--to me the PSB Image series has much better sound quality in addition to stronger, fuller-sounding bass output (maybe a bit too full-sounding, and if anything it could stand to be a little tighter, in my opinion). I guess I just hear differently from the OP.
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Well I don't have my heart set on polks, I just used them as a reference in response to a question about my tastes, and was more happenstance that I walked by them and thought they sounded good. Truth be told, I had my heart set on the psb speakers. One option I thought I could try, was to see if I could get the store where I bought them to wave the restock fee if I promised to spend more on a different set of speakers. So I bought the c5 and b5 there for about 900, but bought the
T5 used for 450. If I sold the T5s for the same price, and put that towards the 900 credit I'd have, then budgeted an extra 150, I could say look, exchange these for me sans restocking fee and ill spend 1500 at your store for something else. They also sell kef and monitor. That's an option too.

It goes without saying that you really need to audition the other speakers before deciding. To me the KEF and Monitor Audio offerings in this price range don't have bass that sounds significantly fuller, but you may well feel differently after hearing them.
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Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

One thing about this process so far, is that I hate sounding like a flakey customer who wouldn't know good sound if it kicked him in the face. It unfortunately might very well be just that, in which case id feel pretty silly. Working in the customer service field myself, I definitely don't want to be THAT guy.

It's not flaky, as we've all been there--well, everybody who has posted in this thread, anyway (maybe we're all flaky, then wink.gif).
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The one upshot for the sales manager I dealt with, a real solid guy, is that he'd be netting a couple more bucks commission if I followed through with my idea in the last post. Of course then again, I might end up buying an inferior set of speakers, because they sounded more to my liking, which is skewed anyways because I'm not used to clear crisp sounds.

That's why we're all saying to give it time--the whole 15 days, minus any margin to be safe.
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I must say I would completely buy into this idea if it weren't for those darn auddesey settings, which may or may not be indicitave of poor placement, a speaker problem, or mean nothing at all!

They do not seem to indicate any major anomalies above the crossover frequency. I'm sure there must be a null in your room that's causing some issues, but probably not in practice while crossed over to the subwoofer (as long as the latter hasn't been moved). Your speakers seem to be fully functional, based on everything you have reported.
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I did set the t5s up before I bought the rest of the set, and noticed what I thought to be smaller sound, but was absolutely convinced that the only reason for this was I didn't have the center or surrounds hooked up yet, so went and bought them.

Oh, I wish you had told me first, then. Oh well, it's water under the bridge now, and you have yet to lose that $200, so don't worry about it--just play a variety of material to make sure those speakers are properly broken in, along with your ears. wink.gif
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The difference between the surrounds and fronts with respect to placoement is minimal, other then the fronts being slightly further away then the surrounds. I will however try in the exact spot I had the b5s when I get home to see if it picks up on their low frequency. I just can't get the nagging feeling out of my head that there is a problem with them, even though alp results, other then auddesey point to this not being the case. I won't make any rash decisions this time around, but it might be worth floating the idea mentioned in the last post by the sales manager, just so I know what my options are. I'm not giving up on the psb's yet.

About the only thing I can think of as being possibly wrong with the speakers (I doubt this, but it's possible) is the lower midwoofer. Because this is a 2.5-way design, the lower midwoofer could fail without making anything obviously sound wrong except for a lack of bass and mid-bass. I don't think so, though, because you said that the T5s in the shop sound the same.
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post #21 of 29 Old 04-02-2013, 09:12 PM - Thread Starter
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They do not seem to indicate any major anomalies above the crossover frequency. I'm sure there must be a null in your room that's causing some issues, but probably not in practice while crossed over to the subwoofer (as long as the latter hasn't been moved). Your speakers seem to be fully functional, based on everything you have reported.

Move those T5s around a bit, as I had suggested in my last post--closer to the closest wall and farther from the next-closest walls (one move at a time, then both) to find out what happens.

You sir, are a GENIUS. I can't believe the change in sound I'm experiencing right now! Check this out:

This was my original configuration:



I switched it around to move the fronts closer to where I had the B5's, skeptically I might add, as it was such a small change, but a little closer to the TV, and to the back wall. like so:



I re ran Auddesey, and sure enough, it picked up a lower range of base:



What a relief!, at this point it confirmed to me ( although the signs were already pointing to this ) that my speakers were functioning fine. Thinking this configuration might be a tad too close together for my liking, I did the opposite, and moved them further away from where I had them, with there backs facing the corner of the room at the exact same angle ( with about a foot or so separation from the corner ) Worth a shot I thought. Incidentally, this also makes the perfect equilateral triangle from the sweet spot. I still had my doubts, about the null spot I discovered though. This is what I did:



Re ran Auddesey, and again it was picking up the lower frequencies, so I popped in that FLAC recording of that band I was talking about. EPIPHANY!
It sounded AMAZING. Not only am I getting a much deeper bass sound, the front sound stage is perfectly uniform. In my first configuration it sounded like the center was overpowering the fronts, thus also leading me to believe that the fronts had a problem. Moving them away from each other further, has enabled them to really hold their own. Now I can here all three speakers at the exact same level, and it's beautiful!!

I can't believe the difference I'm hearing right now. I feel like laughing, you should see the smile on my face! Honestly I'm blown away what those seemingly small changes made!
THANK YOU!
I think it's safe to say I'm forgetting about any other speakers at this point. Wow!! GREAT JOB ROBERT. And thanks to everyone else for their astute input and observations as well!!!! smile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gif
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post #22 of 29 Old 04-03-2013, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

Well to be honest, I don't see what the point in auditioning my bookshelves at the front would be, as I couldn't use the towers as surrounds, they'd fire right in to the sides of my couch for the most part. If I was happier with the sound, it would mean selling the t5s and getting another set of bookshelves to replace them with. But I don't really want bookshelves for front speakers, and don't feel I should be having to compromise after having spent 1500 dollars on new speakers. The only three options I see at this point are 1. Get used to the sound, 2. Sell the t5s and buy t6 towers, or 3. Take the speakers back to the store and swallow the 200 dollar restocking fee, to try to get speakers I'm happier with. Tough decision.

Hi Sean,

My suggestion to audition the bookshelves was purely to experiment and evaluate the sound, and how you liked it. The purpose also was to possibly "flush out" any Audyssey glitch. The suggestion was not intended to recommend using the bookshelves as your fronts. The intent was to determine if you liked their "sound" with the front channels running, and if Audyssey "set" them correctly (or not). This simply would have been a step closer to the moves you ended up making in positioning the speakers.

In the end, I'm very happy for you that you are now pleased with your purchases and listening experiences. This is all part of the "No Pain, No Gain" learning curve. Enjoy!

Sometimes I have to remind myself that I bought all this "stuff" to enjoy it!
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Hi Sean,

My suggestion to audition the bookshelves was purely to experiment and evaluate the sound, and how you liked it. The purpose also was to possibly "flush out" any Audyssey glitch. The suggestion was not intended to recommend using the bookshelves as your fronts. The intent was to determine if you liked their "sound" with the front channels running, and if Audyssey "set" them correctly (or not). This simply would have been a step closer to the moves you ended up making in positioning the speakers.

In the end, I'm very happy for you that you are now pleased with your purchases and listening experiences. This is all part of the "No Pain, No Gain" learning curve. Enjoy!

P.S. To share your pain through this, I just went through "positioning experiments" with my fronts, (as I was not happy with the sound). I found the same thing. Moving my Boston Acoustics further apart, and closer to the back wall made a huge difference in the bass. Sometimes we miss the obvious, I realized that the PSBs were both front ported, while the BAs were rear ported. So, a seemingly minor move made a big difference.

Also, to help eliminate any residual "buyers' remorse", I have always felt that PSB speakers were the best value on the market. I felt they were very good at a "warm but clean" bass. So, I think you made wise buying decisions, and I sincerely hope your listening experiences prove that out.

So, I have to ask....what do you think about the Fluances now?

Sometimes I have to remind myself that I bought all this "stuff" to enjoy it!
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Did you have the Fluance XL7F with the down-firing 8" sub?


http://www.fluance.com/products/Floorstanding_Speakers.eng-2.html
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post #25 of 29 Old 04-03-2013, 07:37 AM - Thread Starter
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P.S. To share your pain through this, I just went through "positioning experiments" with my fronts, (as I was not happy with the sound). I found the same thing. Moving my Boston Acoustics further apart, and closer to the back wall made a huge difference in the bass. Sometimes we miss the obvious, I realized that the PSBs were both front ported, while the BAs were rear ported. So, a seemingly minor move made a big difference.

Also, to help eliminate any residual "buyers' remorse", I have always felt that PSB speakers were the best value on the market. I felt they were very good at a "warm but clean" bass. So, I think you made wise buying decisions, and I sincerely hope your listening experiences prove that out.

So, I have to ask....what do you think about the Fluances now?


I'm glad our experiments were mutually beneficial. The biggest difference, after listening for hours after my change last night, was the uniformity in sound. Having what is described as the " wall " of sound hit me all at once, with the front three ( and surrounds actually ) hitting me all at once made an absolutely unbelievable difference. It took a while but I'm glad of all the support and help getting me from A to B.
As far as the Fluances are concerned, I don't have them to compare any more, but think that for a budget speaker the really are a great value. I could have easily stuck with my set of speakers and been happy enough with them if I wasn't such a sucker for great sound. You get what you pay for usually, but on an entry level speaker level I think the Fluances are decent. The center and surrounds weren't so hot, but I did like the towers. That being said PSB's really sound much clearer, and I think I'd probably have a hard time listening to cheap speakers again after this step up smile.gif
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Originally Posted by bizwiz41 View Post

Hi Sean,

My suggestion to audition the bookshelves was purely to experiment and evaluate the sound, and how you liked it. The purpose also was to possibly "flush out" any Audyssey glitch. The suggestion was not intended to recommend using the bookshelves as your fronts. The intent was to determine if you liked their "sound" with the front channels running, and if Audyssey "set" them correctly (or not). This simply would have been a step closer to the moves you ended up making in positioning the speakers.

In the end, I'm very happy for you that you are now pleased with your purchases and listening experiences. This is all part of the "No Pain, No Gain" learning curve. Enjoy!

Thanks again smile.gif. By that point in the process I was becoming pretty dejected / tired of moving speakers / plugging and unplugging. I still can't believe what a difference moving them made. The Fluances sounded pretty good in the original position ( or so I thought ). It's surprising how much speaker characteristics ( size, height, front / rear ported, cabinet design etc) effect sound dynamics with respect to placement!
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post #26 of 29 Old 04-03-2013, 08:41 AM
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Move those T5s around a bit, as I had suggested in my last post--closer to the closest wall and farther from the next-closest walls (one move at a time, then both) to find out what happens.

You sir, are a GENIUS. I can't believe the change in sound I'm experiencing right now!

I'm very happy for you! biggrin.gif But really, all I did was tell you to move the speakers around--pretty basic stuff. redface.gif
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What a relief!, at this point it confirmed to me ( although the signs were already pointing to this ) that my speakers were functioning fine. Thinking this configuration might be a tad too close together for my liking, I did the opposite, and moved them further away from where I had them, with there backs facing the corner of the room at the exact same angle ( with about a foot or so separation from the corner ) Worth a shot I thought. Incidentally, this also makes the perfect equilateral triangle from the sweet spot. I still had my doubts, about the null spot I discovered though.

By the way, my suggestion to move the speakers closer to the front wall and away from the side walls was to move a couple of potential nulls up and down in frequency, respectively, in order to find out which was (or whether both were) causing your issues. Corner placement of your towers was a possibility that I had in mind for slightly down the road after finishing the analysis, sort of as a last resort, and this is because, as many have discovered by accident over the years, placing speakers (including subwoofers) in corners has a tendency to make them sound boomy. I had wanted to exhaust all of the other possibilities first, but in this case, as the old adage goes, it's always in the last place you look. wink.gif
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Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

Re ran Auddesey, and again it was picking up the lower frequencies, so I popped in that FLAC recording of that band I was talking about. EPIPHANY!
It sounded AMAZING. Not only am I getting a much deeper bass sound, the front sound stage is perfectly uniform. In my first configuration it sounded like the center was overpowering the fronts, thus also leading me to believe that the fronts had a problem. Moving them away from each other further, has enabled them to really hold their own. Now I can here all three speakers at the exact same level, and it's beautiful!!

I can't believe the difference I'm hearing right now. I feel like laughing, you should see the smile on my face! Honestly I'm blown away what those seemingly small changes made!
THANK YOU!

You're very welcome! This comes as a bit of a relief for me, too, because even though you had the initiative in making all of the acquisitions that you did, I kept getting this feeling that I hadn't provided sufficient guidance for the basic stuff. Now this was the reaction I had expected to see from you, just delayed for a few days. Now put in a movie with great surround content, such as "Ratatouille," and tell us how the surrounds sound--this would bring you full-circle to the issue that started it all.
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Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

Thanks again smile.gif. By that point in the process I was becoming pretty dejected / tired of moving speakers / plugging and unplugging. I still can't believe what a difference moving them made. The Fluances sounded pretty good in the original position ( or so I thought ). It's surprising how much speaker characteristics ( size, height, front / rear ported, cabinet design etc) effect sound dynamics with respect to placement!

Part of the reason this took so long was that the new speakers were different, so in terms of placement we were dealing with apples versus oranges--perhaps more so than anybody initially suspected. Then there were all the questions raised, starting in your original thread with speaker cable gauge--questions are great because that's how you learn, but it does take some time to go through all of the possibilities, and get everything figured out and the questions answered. But none of this matters now, as the end result is that you learned a lot (and made several of the discoveries yourself), the rest of us learned a few things, too, and you have the great sound quality that you were seeking. biggrin.gif
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post #27 of 29 Old 04-03-2013, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I'm very happy for you! biggrin.gif But really, all I did was tell you to move the speakers around--pretty basic stuff. redface.gif
By the way, my suggestion to move the speakers closer to the front wall and away from the side walls was to move a couple of potential nulls up and down in frequency, respectively, in order to find out which was (or whether both were) causing your issues. Corner placement of your towers was a possibility that I had in mind for slightly down the road after finishing the analysis, sort of as a last resort, and this is because, as many have discovered by accident over the years, placing speakers (including subwoofers) in corners has a tendency to make them sound boomy. I had wanted to exhaust all of the other possibilities first, but in this case, as the old adage goes, it's always in the last place you look. wink.gif

I had heard that too, specifically about the subs, but thought it was worth a try. As they are not right against the wall in the corner, a good foot or so away, I didn't think it would be too overwhelming, and indeed turned out to be quite satisfactory. The one corner has windows and a curtain in it that no doubt absorbs some of the sound waves otherwise reflected off the walls, and the other corner has a large central air conditioning / heating vent with filter in it - so like furniture in general from what I understand, I'm sure this comes in to play. Whatever the specific reason, they sure sound great now. As a side note, I ran across a review of the T6's in which the review stated he had similar problems placing the T6's for accuracy on the soundstage ( I can't find it at the moment unfortunately). It went something to the effect that he couldn't figure out a fluid dynamic with his fronts untill he placed them with their rears closer to the wall. I guess this might be a quirk of the image series towers in general, but I'm sure Paul Barton knows what he's doing wink.gif
The next step I guess will be the surrounds and sub. My sub doesn't sound that bad right now, but it might be worth investing in one eventually. Any suggestions?, bearing in mind I live in an apartment ( albeit with concrete walls and floors, it's great! )... Maybe a small 8 inch sub might clear up some LF for me. ( I actually didn't think it was that bad until the sales manager mentioned that mine sucked, though this could also be a way to get me to buy a sub from him ) ... I've read some great reviews for the BIC PL-200, and it's not too expensive either. Do certain subs go better with certain speaker lines? or, as I suspect, is a sub a sub as long as it's quality?

Then again, seeing as I can't find flaw with my current sub ( maybe as I don't know any better ), I should wait and put that money towards the S5's when I can afford them.
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post #28 of 29 Old 04-03-2013, 11:03 AM
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If you are in Canada, this is the Canadian distributor and internet dealer for SVS

http://www.sonicboomaudio.com/
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post #29 of 29 Old 04-03-2013, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
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If you are in Canada, this is the Canadian distributor and internet dealer for SVS

http://www.sonicboomaudio.com/

Those seem to be way out of my price range, and probably a little overpowered too. Thanks for the link though smile.gif I'm only looking at budget subs, and don't really need much past 100 watts I would think. I've done a mind boggling amount of research over the last couple hours ( incidentally an excuse to listen to my newly discovered psb awesomeness )... and have come to this conclusion: I know nothing haha. Perhaps this isn't the best forum for sub discussion, but keeping with the psb theme, I've heard that their subs are good " linear subs " which might, from what I understand, keep the bass for music and HT a little tighter. This tells me it might be better for my medium sized room ( and an apartment I might add ). Beyond that I understand that frequency response down to 20 - 30 hz is coveted. I certainly don't need room shaking sound! I need clear bass to compliment my current system. Further to that, it's my understanding that non ported subs are ideal for music ( though they are more expensive and I'll also use it for home theater ). There are an absolutely dizzying array of manufacturers to choose from, with Dayton's, Bic's, some Energy and to a smaller extent Polk audio being decent budget subs. What I should make clear is that, unlike most other budget sub seekers, I wouldn't want to rate the budget sub being a "good value" on sheer wattage or room shaking noise alone. I'd rather have a less powerful sub with clearer bass response, be it linear, ported or sealed. I'm tempted to stick with psb's for timbre matching, though again this doesn't seem like a priority with subs. The dayton subs are super cheap and well received, but I've a feeling that's because more then anything they are LOUD. This one by HSU seems worth saving up for, as it sounds like you can tune it to your hearts content, right down to choosing whether to have it sealed or ported: http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-1mk2.html. If anyone could suggest a sub that plays low frequency clearly - that doesn't have to be loud, that would be great! in other words - My biggest wants here are depth and clarity.
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