Three Identical Front Speakers - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Do you have three identical speakers in the front
YES 42 50.60%
NO 41 49.40%
Voters: 83. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 84 Old 04-06-2013, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
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It would be nice to see how many people are  using three identical front speakers in their Home Theater or Music room.

 

If you do please tell us and post a picture or a link to you room, here is mine.

 

http://www.blu-ray.com/community/gallery.php?member=wes&folderid=3141


My humble Cinema
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post #2 of 84 Old 04-06-2013, 08:46 AM
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It is very instructive that NO manufacturer recommends three identical speakers for the front.

The requirements for best performance are totally different for front L/R speakers and center speakers, and that is why they design dedicated center speakers.
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post #3 of 84 Old 04-06-2013, 08:56 AM
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There is nothing different between using a speaker as main L/R or as a center. Horizontal centers are made because people can't use vertical towers or MTM vertical as centers.
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post #4 of 84 Old 04-06-2013, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

It is very instructive that NO manufacturer recommends three identical speakers for the front.

THX does. All THX speakers are identical across the front 3. Triad does. Atlantic Technology does. Klipsch does, especially for their THX certified products. Polk Audio does, especialy for their THX certified products. Definitve Technology does, especially for their THX certified products. Snell Acoustics does. Salk Sound does. Procella does. Genelec does. Any manufacturer who DOESN'T is clearly misinformed, as are you.
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

The requirements for best performance are totally different for front L/R speakers and center speakers, and that is why they design dedicated center speakers.
That concept is so "last-century." Step into the 21st century and get up to date. Dedicated horizontal CC's are a significant compromise. http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/vertical-vs-horizontal-speaker-designs

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post #5 of 84 Old 04-06-2013, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

It is very instructive that NO manufacturer recommends three identical speakers for the front.

The requirements for best performance are totally different for front L/R speakers and center speakers, and that is why they design dedicated center speakers.

I swear that I've seen quite a few LCR speakers on the market.
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post #6 of 84 Old 04-06-2013, 09:27 AM
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Austically speaking... As soon as you change the orientation of a speaker from vertical to horizontal you change the speaker. Even if it is the exact same speaker.

That being said..in an ideal world...3 identical speakers is ideal. Now if most speaker makers can make more money by selling you something else...they will.

This also goes as to what the public wants to buy...
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post #7 of 84 Old 04-06-2013, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

It is very instructive that NO manufacturer recommends three identical speakers for the front.

The requirements for best performance are totally different for front L/R speakers and center speakers, and that is why they design dedicated center speakers.

That is 100% wrong.

Horizontal center channels are designed as a compromise for those that can't accomodate 3 identical speakers up front.

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post #8 of 84 Old 04-06-2013, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

It is very instructive that NO manufacturer recommends three identical speakers for the front.

The requirements for best performance are totally different for front L/R speakers and center speakers, and that is why they design dedicated center speakers.

OMG. I am 100% SPEECHLESS! eek.gifeek.gif

CLUELESS MUCH?

The ONLY reason they made horizontal center speakers is so that they FIT on people's TV or cabinet or other setup.

I have never seen ANYONE give as much PREPOSTEROUS comments as you give for as long as I can remember ! eek.gif

Having ALL IDENTICAL speakers all around is UNEQUIVOCALLY the BEST POSSIBLE setup PERIOD!

Most people just can't afford five or seven identical Revel Salon2 or B&W 800D2, etc.
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post #9 of 84 Old 04-06-2013, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

It would be nice to see how many people are  using three identical front speakers in their Home Theater or Music room.

I have five identical KEF Reference 201/2 speakers.

If I could afford it, I would have five KEF 207/2 or five Revel Salon2 or five B&W 800D2. biggrin.gif

But 3 identical front 800D2 would be awesome. biggrin.gif
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post #10 of 84 Old 04-06-2013, 10:03 AM
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Until manufacturers begin producing acoustically transparent flat screen displays the ability to distance ourselves from horizontally placed center channel speakers just ain't gonna happen. I much prefer to enjoy my system without the appreciative value of telling me how badly it sucks.

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post #11 of 84 Old 04-06-2013, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

OMG. I am 100% SPEECHLESS! eek.gifeek.gif

CLUELESS MUCH?

The ONLY reason they made horizontal center speakers is so that they FIT on people's TV or cabinet or other setup.

I have never seen ANYONE give as much PREPOSTEROUS comments as you give for as long as I can remember ! eek.gif

Having ALL IDENTICAL speakers all around is UNEQUIVOCALLY the BEST POSSIBLE setup PERIOD!

Most people just can't afford five or seven identical Revel Salon2 or B&W 800D2, etc.

Its typical of Commsysman, he won't be back in this thread but he'll continue to give the same copy paste response and has been saying the same thing for years. Stuck in the past with outdated knowledge. He will not accept anything being discussed here, he's either very stubborn or just doesn't get it.

Its not that most people can't afford all identical speakers (you don't need uber expensive) they just can't accomodate towers or large MTM montiors all around regardless if they can afford it or not. I would love to have 7 Arx A5 towers all around ($749pr) but I can fit a tower as a center and I have no room for 4 tower surrounds.
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post #12 of 84 Old 04-06-2013, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

Its not that most people can't afford all identical speakers (you don't need uber expensive) they just can't accomodate towers or large MTM montiors all around regardless if they can afford it or not. I would love to have 7 Arx A5 towers all around ($749pr) but I can fit a tower as a center and I have no room for 4 tower surrounds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

Until manufacturers begin producing acoustically transparent flat screen displays the ability to distance ourselves from horizontally placed center channel speakers just ain't gonna happen. I much prefer to enjoy my system without the appreciative value of telling me how badly it sucks.

Yes, agreed. My comments were primarily in response to Commsysman. biggrin.gif

Having said all that, I do think horizontal center speakers can sound amazing.

Theory is one thing. Real life is another. wink.gif
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post #13 of 84 Old 04-06-2013, 10:44 AM
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^^ Yep. My response was generic, I wasn't referring to anyone's comments specifically.

commsysman's responses are a lot like bird poop on a windshield. Mildly annoying but easily dismissed. I do give him a great deal of credit for being consistently off the mark - that's a rare talent. eek.gif
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post #14 of 84 Old 04-06-2013, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

Until manufacturers begin producing acoustically transparent flat screen displays the ability to distance ourselves from horizontally placed center channel speakers just ain't gonna happen. I much prefer to enjoy my system without the appreciative value of telling me how badly it sucks.
I'm sure your system doesn't "suck." In the other thread, I was more objecting to the advice being given, especially by the person giving it. It was basically no better than commsysman's advice, but it was coming from someone with real credibility. That someone in his position could basically say, "Meh, the center channel doesn't matter." was what I found appalling.

I'm sorry I used your system as the "example." I didn't know who's it was. I just saw the pic on the website and used it. I'm sure your system sounds just fine and you enjoy it immensely. I have had systems in the past with the CC below the display. They sounded just fine, and no one else ever noticed that the CC was in the "wrong" place, other than me. Anyway, please continue to enjoy your system and don't let my comments have any negative impact on that enjoyment. smile.gif

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post #15 of 84 Old 04-06-2013, 12:01 PM
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I had a horizontal center for quite a while:

One of the setups:


Then went to this:


And now this:


Each of these moves has lead to an improvement in HT sound, but the move to an AT screen with the LCR's behind the screen produced one of the better results. Having the sound of the LCRs (especially the CC) emanating from the screen combined with good surround speakers is the only way to go. IMO smile.gif


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post #16 of 84 Old 04-06-2013, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I had a horizontal center for quite a while:
And now this:


Each of these moves has lead to an improvement in HT sound, but the move to an AT screen with the LCR's behind the screen produced one of the better results. Having the sound of the LCRs (especially the CC) emanating from the screen combined with good surround speakers is the only way to go. IMO smile.gif

Very nice does the screen go up so you can have music unfiltered a well,

The center channel’s job is a tough one. The consensus is that around 75 percent of a movie’s content is routed to the center channel loudspeaker.

My humble Cinema
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post #17 of 84 Old 04-06-2013, 04:39 PM
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My last several set-ups have all had three identical mains, across the front.

My current set-up employs Seaton Catalyst12C, three of them. My center is currently horizontally config'd, with little to no audible issue when compared to the normal vertical orientation due to the coaxial design of the MF/HF drive section. From around 180hz on up, the coax handles everything. Since the (2)12" LF drives are separated by less than a foot, and only cover a limited range, the audible difference between horizontal and vertical orientation are minimal.

I'm eventually moving toward an AT screen, however our current system utilizes a 65" plasma display. Our non-dedicated family room is quite modest in size (25x13), and is as multi-function as they come. The amount of gear in this room is already significant. Everyone's patient with all the gear, but moving to a projection system is a step that changes the home's circular floor plan, to two dead ends eek.gif ! Even in a temp scenario, big step. I'm working on it. They do love the superb audio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

It is very instructive that NO manufacturer recommends three identical speakers for the front.

The requirements for best performance are totally different for front L/R speakers and center speakers, and that is why they design dedicated center speakers.


This is multi-channel 101, and essentially the first and perhaps one of the most important starting points of system design and implementation; three identical loudspeakers across the front.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

As soon as you change the orientation of a speaker from vertical to horizontal you change the speaker. Even if it is the exact same speaker.

This depends on the speaker. Coaxial designs, such as the Seaton Catalyst family, change very little according to orientation. Front baffle diffraction may impact someaberrations response abberations, however audibility would be questionable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

Until manufacturers begin producing acoustically transparent flat screen displays the ability to distance ourselves from horizontally placed center channel speakers just ain't gonna happen.

There's a variety of solutions other than the typical horizontal center. I've had outstanding results from covering a room from directly above the display, angled down,... and L&R angled down and in. My background is laden with pro audio experience, and this is essential stuff, ie., covering a room from slightly above, angled down and in. My first HT I never gave a horizontal center a thought. My display height dictated my center channel elevation, and left and right should always be in the exact same height for uniformity.

Anything less was never an option.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

The center channel’s job is a tough one.

+1

Isn't that the understatement? All too often we see ill advised, ill optimized, poorly designed center channels. Yeah, it's that important.

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post #18 of 84 Old 04-06-2013, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

It would be nice to see how many people are  using three identical front speakers in their Home Theater or Music room.

If you do please tell us and post a picture or a link to you room, here is mine.

http://www.blu-ray.com/community/gallery.php?member=wes&folderid=3141

Three identical speakers LCR across the front was a "once you've tried it you can't go back" for me smile.gif Currently running three KEF Q100's across the front.

The next time I set up a HT I'll make sure to allow more space for a center so that I can upgrade to bigger speakers! Though I'm still trying to talk myself into three KEF LS-50's across the front in my current place wink.gif

Picture coming ...
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post #19 of 84 Old 04-06-2013, 07:36 PM
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I have 3 Klipsch RF7IIs across the front..SEAMLESS front stage biggrin.gif this link had me change my horizontal for another tower. http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=89614
Picture should be in my HT setup in my signature ( I believe) smile.gif looks like I have to get on my notebook and post a picture later in my signature. I'll do that tomorrow

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post #20 of 84 Old 04-06-2013, 07:50 PM
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I got 3 of the same - JTR Triple 12.

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post #21 of 84 Old 04-06-2013, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

It is very instructive that NO manufacturer recommends three identical speakers for the front.

The requirements for best performance are totally different for front L/R speakers and center speakers, and that is why they design dedicated center speakers.
LOL. You're still here spreading misinformation, I see. biggrin.giftongue.gif

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post #22 of 84 Old 04-07-2013, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

LOL. You're still here spreading misinformation, I see. biggrin.giftongue.gif
Not completely, in this case anyway. Manufacturers should recommend identical L/R/C speakers. But the vast majority of L/R speakers won't fit under a screen the way that the average consumer wants them to. The manufacturer is then faced with the choice of not offering speakers that will fit horizontally below a screen, or offering them. If they offer them how many manufacturers are going to be completely honest and say "You shouldn't use speakers that fit horizontally below your screen, but if you're going to do it anyway then use one of these." ? Not so many, I'm sure. rolleyes.gif

But as for
Quote:
The requirements for best performance are totally different
that's not true from an audio standpoint, only a cosmetic one.

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post #23 of 84 Old 04-07-2013, 07:06 AM
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Dang everybody all tagged up on commy.....

Hopefully he mostly meant form factor and not acoustical requirements.

AFA turning those JTRs horizontal IMO theres prob not an ounce of difference vs vertical. With the coax they surely cross the outer woofs low enough that ctc is not as big a deal. Measurably different maybe, but audibly, doubt it.

For this reason, for a horizontal center I generally prefer a well designed three way to get outers low enough so that ctc is less a problem and line up the midrange drivers.

FWIW, Identical three for me and another identical three currently in the "shop" biggrin.gif
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post #24 of 84 Old 04-07-2013, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post


AFA turning those JTRs horizontal IMO theres prob not an ounce of difference vs vertical.
With respect to the radiation angle of the midrange and HF drivers, true. With respect to the woofers, no. On the left, the radiation pattern of the woofers when vertical. On the right, when horizontal.


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post #25 of 84 Old 04-07-2013, 07:50 AM
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I played a few reference material with my center vertical and then horizontal and from my normal listening position no audible difference for me. Did it again sitting off to the side and yes there is a difference . Sounded a bit thin.
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post #26 of 84 Old 04-07-2013, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post


Very nice does the screen go up so you can have music unfiltered a well,

The center channel’s job is a tough one. The consensus is that around 75 percent of a movie’s content is routed to the center channel loudspeaker.

Thanks and no, that is a fixed AT screen and I like my music "filtered" wink.gif. I removed the Panny plasma from the top photo specifically so that I could place the LCR's in a vertical alignment across the front behind the screen. As to filtering, there is s slight db loss with the AT screen but according to the manufacturer it is only 1db. Really no different than grill cloth.

I realize there are issues using AT screens in non-dedicated rooms but that's the way real theaters do it. For a true theater experience having matched LCR's with their sound emanating from the screen is the ideal situation. IMHO.
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post #27 of 84 Old 04-07-2013, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Dang everybody all tagged up on commy.....

Hopefully he mostly meant form factor and not acoustical requirements.

AFA turning those JTRs horizontal IMO theres prob not an ounce of difference vs vertical. With the coax they surely cross the outer woofs low enough that ctc is not as big a deal. Measurably different maybe, but audibly, doubt it.

For this reason, for a horizontal center I generally prefer a well designed three way to get outers low enough so that ctc is less a problem and line up the midrange drivers.

FWIW, Identical three for me and another identical three currently in the "shop" biggrin.gif

That matches my experience Nick. When I used the horizontal center channel JTR Triple 12, I moved the left and right speakers coaxial (mid-high frequency) driver to the upper position. With the center channel coax in the middle position this put all three coaxes on the same vertical plane. It sounded fine for both music and movies but having the speakers below the screen was not ideal. Moving to the AT screen made a noticeable improvement in the movie concert watching experience with little if any loss of PQ.


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post #28 of 84 Old 04-07-2013, 09:14 AM
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WSE, I use three identical speakers in the vertical postion for my fronts except they cost about the same price as one of your speaker cable or less. WOW, what a beautiful set up/home you have there.
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post #29 of 84 Old 04-07-2013, 10:28 AM
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Three KEF iQ3 across the front biggrin.gif

Centre one on its side, but being a coax design, they sound great cool.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Hopefully he mostly meant form factor and not acoustical requirements.

Unfortunately not eek.gif

He believes that the centre channel should only be capable of midrange (150Hz - 5000Hz range) and that if the speaker is capable of and required to produce other sounds it will impact the quality of the midrange rolleyes.gif

Now, if he was preaching that the BEST centre would be a 3-way with a dedicated midrange, I could understand the logic.

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post #30 of 84 Old 04-07-2013, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick240 View Post

...Unfortunately not eek.gif

He believes that the centre channel should only be capable of midrange (150Hz - 5000Hz range) and that if the speaker is capable of and required to produce other sounds it will impact the quality of the midrange rolleyes.gif

Now, if he was preaching that the BEST centre would be a 3-way with a dedicated midrange, I could understand the logic.

Besides almost all theaters having three identical speakers across the front, every sound-stage I've seen (in person or in photos) mixes movies with three identical speakers LCR across the front. (I design movies titles and every once in a while I get invited to the final audio mix of our section of the movie.)
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