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post #1 of 7 Old 04-07-2013, 04:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Helping a friend. He has a nice drum set. Can you see this coming?
His set up is an entry level Onkyo receiver, entry level Veldyne sub and Proficient 6.5" in-wall speakers (L-C-R) in a 5.1 home theater set up.
He likes to play his drums to the music, mostly on his ipod. Trouble is, of course, that he can't play it loud enough not to be drown out by the drum set. He would like to increase the sound level.
I was surprised how high the current system goes. Didn't have my meter, but guessing easily into the low to mid 90 dbs.
I'm thinking new front three and a new receiver. Budget is $2500, so I think the sub will have to wait.
Are there any in-walls that would work?
What suggestions for floorstanders? (would get matching center)
What do you think about a Pioneer 1221 for the receiver?

Help appreciated.
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post #2 of 7 Old 04-07-2013, 08:31 PM - Thread Starter
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B u m p
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post #3 of 7 Old 04-08-2013, 05:40 AM
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No consumer grade system will reach the levels required to match a drum set. He would have to use pro-sound grade speakers.
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Didn't have my meter, but guessing easily into the low to mid 90 dbs.
That's what pro-sound speakers will deliver with one watt.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
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post #4 of 7 Old 04-08-2013, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAR5197 View Post

Helping a friend. He has a nice drum set. Can you see this coming?
His set up is an entry level Onkyo receiver, entry level Veldyne sub and Proficient 6.5" in-wall speakers (L-C-R) in a 5.1 home theater set up.

The key words are "entry level"
Quote:
He likes to play his drums to the music, mostly on his ipod. Trouble is, of course, that he can't play it loud enough not to be drown out by the drum set. He would like to increase the sound level.
I was surprised how high the current system goes. Didn't have my meter, but guessing easily into the low to mid 90 dbs.
I'm thinking new front three and a new receiver. Budget is $2500, so I think the sub will have to wait.

What Bill said. An entry level consumer system, even one with a great subwoofer can't keep up with an acoustic drum kit that is being operated energetically.

Surprizingly enough, amplifier power is probably not the biggest problem. Please provide more detailed info about the AVR - specific model please.

Your description of the speakers lacks detail. Here's the Proficient catalog, please identify the model speakers of speakers at hand more exactly:

http://www.fullcompass.com/common/files/6827-ProductCatalog.pdf

There seem to be two grades of Proficient speakers, those with 88 dB/W sensitivity and those with 92 dB/W sensitivity.

They are typically rated at around 150 watts. If you have a typical AVR with about 100 wpc, the more efficient speakers of the bunch could reach peak SPLs in the range of 112 dB, which is not shabby, depending on how energetic the drummer is.

Does he use quiet sticks?

There's an alternative solution - your drummer would probably save himself a lot of grief if he obtained electronic drums and practiced using headphones. However, that's an artistic choice that many wish to avoid..
Quote:
Are there any in-walls that would work?

If he's got the better Proficient In-wall speakers in the catalog, I don't think hes going to do a lot better with in-walls. If he doesn't, upgrading to the better line could make an audible difference.
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What suggestions for floorstanders? (would get matching center)

In the realm of reasonable-priced floorstanders with good dynamic range, the Inifinty Primus P-363 have the same rated efficiency as the better Proficient in-walls.

If you move up to some fairly expensive Klipschs, you might be able to get a few dB more sensitivity.
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What do you think about a Pioneer 1221 for the receiver?

Well, you didn't tell me what the existing AVR is, but on the worst day of its life it puts out 50 wpc. The Pioneer puts out 120 wpc which is about 4 dB more power. If you have an AVR with a calibrated volume control, grab the remote and crank in 4 dB more. What do you think about the difference? Not so much, eh? Rule of thumb it takes 10 times more power to produce the perception of twice as loud,

Where Bill and I are probably both headed is that aside from quiet sticks or electronic drums, you probably need to get involved with audio components from the professional audio side of the street.

Pro audio is where you find amps with a thousand watts per channel and speakers that can actually handle that without melting down. Furthermore, they do cost money, but not an arm and a leg. The big swtich is that your AVR stops being the core of your system, and a professional mixer starts being part of your life.

Pro audio speakers have efficiency up in the 98 to 105 dB/W range. That all by itself could get you twice as loud with your existing AVR. The better speakers in that realm can handle a killowatt or two without excessive strain and that gets you twice as loud. The power amps from the pro audio realm that have that kind of power are readily available.

If you are interested in some pro audio speakers that have near-home-hifi quality and the guts to keep up with an acoustic drum kit, think about something like Electrovoice ZX-4s.

http://www.fullcompass.com/common/files/6827-ProductCatalog.pdf
http://www.electrovoice.com/product.php?id=251

"To deliver 400 watts continuous power handling (1600W peak), ZX4 utilizes a DH3 compression driver mated to a 90 degrees x 50 degrees Constant Directivity horn, along with the all-new EVS15SF woofer. Sensitivity is 100 dB and max SPL is 132 dB." Sensitivity 1 W/1 m 100 dB.



One important point is that these speakers could be a final solution when attached to the existing AVR. If not, you know where to go next.
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post #5 of 7 Old 04-08-2013, 09:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow, thanks for the great replies.
The AVR is an Onkyo 308. 65 watts But I think we will replace it reguardless. It's Ipod/phone/pad abilities are limited. The newer AVRs are much better.
The speakers: the only box he had was for the center. It is the IW 550. it shows it to be 88db. Not sure of the L/R but likely the W 670/80 which are rated at the 92db.
As loud as they were playing with that small AVR I'd guess this to be correct.
I didn't mention the room. It's quite large. 30' long, 14' wide and 10' ceiling. So there is a lot of space to fill.
I was wondering if the Pro audio would be the way to go. Thanks for the suggestions.
I will definately ask him to try the Quiet Sticks. He already poo poo'd the headset.
I like those EVs, do you have other suggestions? I suppose you need to mount those on a stand?
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post #6 of 7 Old 04-08-2013, 10:04 AM
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With the high efficiency of those EV speakers, your current receiver can produce 110 dbA with only 10 watts of power.

Go much higher and hearing damage is an issue.

I would try them with the current receiver before spending more money needlessly.
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post #7 of 7 Old 04-08-2013, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAR5197 View Post

Wow, thanks for the great replies.
The AVR is an Onkyo 308. 65 watts But I think we will replace it reguardless. It's Ipod/phone/pad abilities are limited. The newer AVRs are much better.
The speakers: the only box he had was for the center. It is the IW 550. it shows it to be 88db. Not sure of the L/R but likely the W 670/80 which are rated at the 92db.
As loud as they were playing with that small AVR I'd guess this to be correct.
I didn't mention the room. It's quite large. 30' long, 14' wide and 10' ceiling. So there is a lot of space to fill.

Kinda. Usually the drummer would sit close to the speakers. You don't have to fill the whole room, just the part where the listeners sit.

Quote:
I was wondering if the Pro audio would be the way to go. Thanks for the suggestions.
I will definately ask him to try the Quiet Sticks. He already poo poo'd the headset.

I like those EVs, do you have other suggestions? I suppose you need to mount those on a stand?


In my experience there are 3 passive speakers in the EV ZX line as far as most applications go.

Compared to home audio speakers these pro speakers are kinda laid back and rolled off top and bottom.

The ZX-1s are small, less efficient, really need a subwoofer, but are very robust, clean with a good sub, and smooth.

The ZX-4s I mentioned are sort of middle of the road.

The ZX-5s are the real stars, handle monster amounts of power, but can work as hi fi speakers with a little eq. You will pay for them!
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