Which subwoofers to buy??? - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: SVS or Polk????
Dual SVS PB1000 - $949 6 100.00%
Two Polk Audio PSW 505 - $398 0 0%
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post #1 of 39 Old 04-11-2013, 12:33 AM - Thread Starter
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I am looking for 2 subs for my new HTR. I was wondering what some of you thought. I was looking at the SVS Dual PB1000 set up for $949. They extend down to 19htz & have very good reviews. The other thought is the Polk PSW 505 which is only $398 for 2 of them on Amazon. They also have fantastic reviews so what to do?????

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post #2 of 39 Old 04-11-2013, 07:43 AM
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You are comparing a Corvette to a Ford Fiesta.

The PSW505 is an upgrade for someone with a cheap underpowered 10-inch woofer, but is not all that great.

The SVS is a high-performance model. There is no comparison.

My favorite, which I have, is the NHT B12D. It has lots of power and is a sealed design which has a very linear frequency response; excellent sound quality.
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post #3 of 39 Old 04-11-2013, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

You are comparing a Corvette to a Ford Fiesta.

The PSW505 is an upgrade for someone with a cheap underpowered 10-inch woofer, but is not all that great.

The SVS is a high-performance model. There is no comparison.

My favorite, which I have, is the NHT B12D. It has lots of power and is a sealed design which has a very linear frequency response; excellent sound quality.

Well that is what I guessed but I was wondering if the SVS subs were worth more than double the money. I asked SVS about their 12" sealed subs but the ported 10" sub goes deeper than the sealed 12" & would be better for movies they said. These will only be used for movies also, no music.

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post #4 of 39 Old 04-11-2013, 02:59 PM
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At the moment the Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX is on sale for $630 shipped, it alone is far more powerful than two of either the Polk or SVS sub. You could get two Outlaws for $1260 shipped and have a serious system.
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post #5 of 39 Old 04-11-2013, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

You are comparing a Corvette to a Ford Fiesta.

The PSW505 is an upgrade for someone with a cheap underpowered 10-inch woofer, but is not all that great.

The SVS is a high-performance model. There is no comparison.

My favorite, which I have, is the NHT B12D. It has lots of power and is a sealed design which has a very linear frequency response; excellent sound quality.

While I would agree that the SVS is a much better choice and would be worth the difference, the PSW505 has a 12" driver.

I saw that you have the Energy S12.3 listed as one of your subs. The S12.3 is a much better class of sub than the PSW505, and I would even take your S10.3 over the PSW505. Doubtful the PB-1000 would have more output than your S12.3, but might have better SQ and maybe better low frequency extension. But the PSW505 would be a step backwards from what you are used to.

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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

At the moment the Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX is on sale for $630 shipped, it alone is far more powerful than two of either the Polk or SVS sub. You could get two Outlaws for $1260 shipped and have a serious system.

+1

The EX is a great value at that price. Should be a step up over your S12.3.

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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post


The EX is a great value at that price. Should be a step up over your S12.3.

I believe that would be more like a pointless lateral move than a clear cut step up. IMO, if the OP wants to upgrade, then upgrade to something like the Rythmic FV15, then maybe add a second one later.
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post #7 of 39 Old 04-11-2013, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by 65 Electra Glide View Post

I believe that would be more like a pointless lateral move than a clear cut step up. IMO, if the OP wants to upgrade, then upgrade to something like the Rythmic FV15, then maybe add a second one later.

I'm pretty sure the Outlaw would be a sizable step up from the Energy sub in every sense of the word.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I'm pretty sure the Outlaw would be a sizable step up from the Energy sub in every sense of the word.

You have already made your feelings about that abundantly clear in a very similar comparison of the S12.3's identical twin, the Mirage S12 vs the HSU VTF3 in this thread right here.

Apparently, you have a very different definition of the phrase "a sizable step up from" than I and others do in every sense of the word, but to each their own.
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post #9 of 39 Old 04-11-2013, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 65 Electra Glide View Post

You have already made your feelings about that abundantly clear in a very similar comparison of the S12.3's identical twin, the Mirage S12 vs the HSU VTF3 in this thread right here.

Apparently, you have a very different definition of the phrase "a sizable step up from" than I and others do in every sense of the word, but to each their own.

Yeah. I don't think it would be a big step up. My guess would be more <30hz output. And then the benefit of having dual subs of the same type, since it's not possible to find an S12.3 these days.

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post #10 of 39 Old 04-11-2013, 06:28 PM
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You guys are looking at it too simply, you are just looking at amp RMS power and driver size. Since there are no measurements of the S12.3, it is speculative to say either way. However, I would be very surprised if the S12.3 had 113 dB mid bass at 2 m ground plane measurements. There is no way.
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post #11 of 39 Old 04-11-2013, 06:38 PM - Thread Starter
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I love my S12.3 in my smaller HTR. It hits hard & sounds great. I would buy 2 of them if I could find them. The 10" SVS & 12" Polk both were getting rave reviews from owners so that is why I was asking. I'm not upgrading from my S12.3, that will remain in my small TR, I am simply looking for a pair of nice subs for my larger TR that I am now trying to finish up. smile.gif

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post #12 of 39 Old 04-11-2013, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Since there are no measurements of the S12.3.

Wrong assumption. There were Tom Nousaine measurements. Here it is in comparison to the original LFM-1

Energy S12.3 Outlaw LFM-1
max -- 110db -- 108dB
20Hz -- 86.9dB -- 83dB
25Hz -- 105.7dB -- 97dB
32Hz -- 113dB -- 113.4dB
25-50Hz -- 109.5dB -- 107.7dB
29-113Hz +/-2.2dB -- 30-73Hz +/-2.0dB

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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

You guys are looking at it too simply, you are just looking at amp RMS power and driver size. Since there are no measurements of the S12.3, it is speculative to say either way. However, I would be very surprised if the S12.3 had 113 dB mid bass at 2 m ground plane measurements. There is no way.

FWIW, it's in the top 10 (about 25 spots ahead of the Outlaw) on Tom Nousaine's list right here, so, there are some apples to apples measurements of it even if it is Nousaine's.
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Wrong assumption. There were Tom Nousaine measurements. Here it is in comparison to the original LFM-1

Energy S12.3 Outlaw LFM-1
max -- 110db -- 108dB
20Hz -- 86.9dB -- 83dB
25Hz -- 105.7dB -- 97dB
32Hz -- 113dB -- 113.4dB
25-50Hz -- 109.5dB -- 107.7dB
29-113Hz +/-2.2dB -- 30-73Hz +/-2.0dB

Dang, you beat me to it, but the LFM-1EX is on there too. At any rate, it looks klike we can put to bed the notion of the Outlaw being any kind of a substantial upgrade over the Energy.
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post #15 of 39 Old 04-11-2013, 08:08 PM
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That list is utterly bogus, this is why i never refer to it. If we are to believe that list, an Epik Conquest and Velodyne 1812 is only 3 dB more powerful than the S12.3 (yeah right). The S12.3 outperforms a Paradigm Signature Servo, a JL Audio F112, and a Paradigm Servo 15! An old VTF2 outperforms a VTF3 mk3 with Turbo, and the original LFM outperforms an LFM-1. I could go on, but I invite you to take more than a passing glance to see how absurdly those subs rank.
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post #16 of 39 Old 04-11-2013, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Wrong assumption. There were Tom Nousaine measurements. Here it is in comparison to the original LFM-1

Energy S12.3 Outlaw LFM-1
max -- 110db -- 108dB
20Hz -- 86.9dB -- 83dB
25Hz -- 105.7dB -- 97dB
32Hz -- 113dB -- 113.4dB
25-50Hz -- 109.5dB -- 107.7dB
29-113Hz +/-2.2dB -- 30-73Hz +/-2.0dB

Take a moment to think about this. The S12.3 is supposed to have almost 9 dB more output than the original LFM at 25 hz, despite the LFM's much larger cabinet, more powerful amp, and longer ports. Are you really going to take that comparison seriously? Do you know how much excursion the s12.3 would need to overcome all the LFM's structural advantages? Hint: a lot more than its spec'd 1.6" peak to peak. Btw, I really doubt the Energy's driver was at all better than the Outlaw's as it was.
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post #17 of 39 Old 04-11-2013, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

That list is utterly bogus, this is why i never refer to it. If we are to believe that list, an Epik Conquest and Velodyne 1812 is only 3 dB more powerful than the S12.3 (yeah right). The S12.3 outperforms a Paradigm Signature Servo, a JL Audio F112, and a Paradigm Servo 15! An old VTF2 outperforms a VTF3 mk3 with Turbo, and the original LFM outperforms an LFM-1. I could go on, but I invite you to take more than a passing glance to see how absurdly those subs rank.

His ranking is based on a 25 to 62hz AVERAGE where distortion is limited to 10%. So some subs might perform better under the CEA2010 standards.

Anyway, first you say there are no measurements, then you say these aren't good enough. I'll remember that next time you recommend the HSU VTF-3 MK4, which you so often do, for there are no published measurements for that wink.gif
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post #18 of 39 Old 04-11-2013, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Take a moment to think about this. The S12.3 is supposed to have almost 9 dB more output than the original LFM at 25 hz, despite the LFM's much larger cabinet, more powerful amp, and longer ports. Are you really going to take that comparison seriously? Do you know how much excursion the s12.3 would need to overcome all the LFM's structural advantages? Hint: a lot more than its spec'd 1.6" peak to peak. Btw, I really doubt the Energy's driver was at all better than the Outlaw's as it was.

I'll repeat since you don't seem to understand the measurements. Nousaine's measurements are at 10% THD output level. So some subs might reach greater output at distortion levels above that.

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post #19 of 39 Old 04-11-2013, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I'll repeat since you don't seem to understand the measurements. Nousaine's measurements are at 10% THD output level. So some subs might reach greater output at distortion levels above that.

I get the measurements, I read how they were taken. The problem is, it gives you no idea how powerful these subs are. Except with 10% THD, but that isn't that informative to how they will sound, as there is a lot of different distortion profiles. By using a 10% THD ceiling, that list is worthless.

As for the VTF3 mk4, you could use measurements from the mk3 or the LFM-1 EX to get a rough idea of how it performs. It is not radically different than either.
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post #20 of 39 Old 04-11-2013, 11:45 PM - Thread Starter
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What about having 2 Klipsch SW-115 subs. These are 15" drivers that extend below 20 htz too & I can get a deal on them picking up both of them new for under $1k. Maybe this would be the best choice?

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post #21 of 39 Old 04-12-2013, 12:24 PM
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Jim Cutter... What is your budget??? You seem to be looking at subs all over different price ranges.

In no particular order at all, if your budget can reach this far look into these subs. (I may have missed some worthy contenders as well)
2 Outlaw EX's
2 SVS PB 12 NSD's
2 PSA XV15's
2 Hsu VTF-15H's
2 Rythmik LV12R's

Shawn
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post #22 of 39 Old 04-12-2013, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

As for the VTF3 mk4, you could use measurements from the mk3 or the LFM-1 EX to get a rough idea of how it performs. It is not radically different than either.

There is no data to support that conclusion about the EX and the VTF-3. Different driver, different amp, different enclosure.

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post #23 of 39 Old 04-12-2013, 01:06 PM
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There is no data to support that conclusion about the EX and the VTF-3. Different driver, different amp, different enclosure.

Enclosure volume is the same, so functionally the enclosure is the same. The amps are both 350 watt BASH amps, I think you could reasonably expect them to perform similarly. Given that the amp power, tuning points, and enclosure size is the same, I think you could surmise the drivers will be similar. Besides that, as owner of both, I can tell you they are very much alike.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Enclosure volume is the same, so functionally the enclosure is the same. The amps are both 350 watt BASH amps, I think you could reasonably expect them to perform similarly. Given that the amp power, tuning points, and enclosure size is the same, I think you could surmise the drivers will be similar. Besides that, as owner of both, I can tell you they are very much alike.

Your personal experience is not the same as published measurements. Seems like a double standard to argue vehemently that another sub needs measurements, and then when measurements are offered, poo-poo them.
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Your personal experience is not the same as published measurements. Seems like a double standard to argue vehemently that another sub needs measurements, and then when measurements are offered, poo-poo them.

Nousaine's measurements don't offer much information. They tell you what a sub can do corner loaded in a large room with a 10% THD cap. You submitted those meager measurements as evidence that somehow the Outlaw wouldn't have a serious performance advantage over the S12.3. A glance at the specs and Ricci's far more complete set of measurements tell a different story.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

By using a 10% THD ceiling, that list is worthless.
Hardly. 10% THD is the method by which useful driver excursion is quantified. Beyond 10% THD additional power input doesn't give additional usable linear output, so it's a very accurate method of determining a subs maximum output and therefore is the industry standard. Maximum SPL figures arrived at by other means aren't doing it correctly.

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post #27 of 39 Old 04-12-2013, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Nousaine's measurements don't offer much information. They tell you what a sub can do corner loaded in a large room with a 10% THD cap. You submitted those meager measurements as evidence that somehow the Outlaw wouldn't have a serious performance advantage over the S12.3. A glance at the specs and Ricci's far more complete set of measurements tell a different story.

Out of curiosity, how can Ricci's far more complete set of measurements tell any story whatsoever when one of the two subs in comparison isn't even measured?

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post #28 of 39 Old 04-12-2013, 02:35 PM
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Perhaps a 10% THD ceiling is meaningful, but there is something way off about Nousaine's list. You know as well as I do that the S12.3 isn't going to be anywhere near as powerful as an Epik Conquest. His list is just not a valid data set.
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post #29 of 39 Old 04-12-2013, 02:46 PM
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Out of curiosity, how can Ricci's far more complete set of measurements tell any story whatsoever when one of the two subs in comparison isn't even measured?
Ricci's data actually says something useful about the Outlaw sub. That is a different story itself.
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post #30 of 39 Old 04-12-2013, 02:57 PM
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Uhh, ok.

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