NE Spring Speaker Shootout results thread - April 13, 2013 - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 569 Old 04-18-2013, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

As I just told someone else, I could have probably have gotten away with the 228's. The only reason is I have already blew my wifes face off and now she wants me to turn it down. Partially I don't think the 212's come alive till -10 or reference.

Interesting. One of the things I really liked right away when I had the demo pair in my room was that they sounded so great at all volumes. Even turned down way low, I tried them out at 70db and even lower for awhile just to see and I liked them better at those low volumes than any other speaker I have had in my room.

Still, the temptation to keep nudging up the volume is very strong and hard not to do. Sometimes I'll put the remote out of arms reach just so I can stay in the mid 80 db's (where I usually have the volume) and save my hearing.

The above is all about music BTW.

With the 228's this temptation to keep turning it up didn't happen for me, so as far as my ears go (and wallet) I would have been much better off getting the 228's. No regrets though that's for sure, to me the difference is enough - for music - to justify the difference in cost.

Reef - do you use an amp with your 212's or just avr?
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post #272 of 569 Old 04-18-2013, 08:51 AM
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I have the exact same problem but here is how I handle it if I forget their name within 10 mins: I would ask 'what's your name sir'? John, he answers. I then tell him I know you are John, I meant your last name. cool.gif
As a gym owner, it is particularly embarrassing for me when I don't know a name that I should. I will use this trick as well. Thank you.
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post #273 of 569 Old 04-18-2013, 09:32 AM
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logicators,

Have you heard the ported caps? Jeff told avsforum member toymachyne that if it was max output he wanted in a big room he should stick to a pair of Cap 2400 or a pair of Orbit Shifter over a pair of s2 - from what toymachyne told me. Hopefully Jeff will chime in and clear up the why, what, circumstances of the whole thing.

I've heard both s1, s2, cap pro, and orbit shifters on multiple occassions each in multiple rooms. They each are a bit different - but when eq'ed properly do sound more alike than dissimilar - despite their design differences.

yet...

The drivers in the ported cap and orbit shifter are the same. The drivers in the S1 and S2 are different. As I understand it - the magnet in the OS and ported cap has a stronger magnet structure than the driver used in the sealed setup because the sealed driver can rely on the sealed enclosure to help control the driver. So it isn't just that a S2 has two cap driver and has to be louder. There is driver difference and likely max performance differences to a (unknown by me) degree.

I'd submit that passive caps powered properly and provisioned EQ are a fantastic and slightly cheaper alternative for someone who is a bit of a learned enthusiast.

I emailed Jeff about how the Ported Cap (with 2.4K amp) compares with S2 in terms of the output and received the following response:

"They have the same output above 18hz however the Captivator S2 have much more output below that. Basically, for an etra $500 you gain the ultra lowend."

So anyone considering the active ported cap should seriously consider the S2 instead if ULF is important to them.
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post #274 of 569 Old 04-18-2013, 09:38 AM
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Honestly...I am struggling with all this too. A $250 pair of DIY flat pack speakers give you 90% of the sound of a $1200 set of speakers... At what point does the price vs. performance ratio kick in. I think most would agree a 2-3k set of speakers can sound 95% as good as most 10-100k speakers... The amount of diminishing returns is ...high.

So where do we draw that line... Darn if I know...

I do plan on building some DIY soon..at least flat pack.

Its funny that you say that because that's the very same argument I had with buying the 228HT's over the 212HT's. I'm using then strictly for movies and HT use, and the guys who have heard the 228HT's have made the same comment that for HT use the 228HT's offer 95% of the performance of the 212HT's with movies. Its always the last 5% that's going to set your wallet on fire.

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JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
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post #275 of 569 Old 04-18-2013, 09:55 AM
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Its funny that you say that because that's the very same argument I had with buying the 228HT's over the 212HT's. I'm using then strictly for movies and HT use, and the guys who have heard the 228HT's have made the same comment that for HT use the 228HT's offer 95% of the performance of the 212HT's with movies. Its always the last 5% that's going to set your wallet on fire.

How big is your room? Mine is 3200 cu ft and if I were only HT I would buy the 228's for sure.
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post #276 of 569 Old 04-18-2013, 10:49 AM
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How big is your room? Mine is 3200 cu ft and if I were only HT I would buy the 228's for sure.

Mines only 2100cu/ft. yet another reason why I couldn't justify the price difference of getting the 212's over the 228's.

My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
Axiom Audio QS8 surrounds
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post #277 of 569 Old 04-18-2013, 11:03 AM
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Interesting. One of the things I really liked right away when I had the demo pair in my room was that they sounded so great at all volumes. Even turned down way low, I tried them out at 70db and even lower for awhile just to see and I liked them better at those low volumes than any other speaker I have had in my room.

Still, the temptation to keep nudging up the volume is very strong and hard not to do. Sometimes I'll put the remote out of arms reach just so I can stay in the mid 80 db's (where I usually have the volume) and save my hearing.

The above is all about music BTW.

With the 228's this temptation to keep turning it up didn't happen for me, so as far as my ears go (and wallet) I would have been much better off getting the 228's. No regrets though that's for sure, to me the difference is enough - for music - to justify the difference in cost.

Reef - do you use an amp with your 212's or just avr?
No amp, I am using a new Denon 4520 and there is plenty of power. I am thinking of adding an Emotiva XPA-3, but I am wondering if it is nessacary? It would be fun to open them up with some nice power every once in awhile.

Also I don't think the 212's sound bad low, I just think they "wake up" around the -5 to -10 mark. You really start to hear the detail at that mark. Honestly mine are not even close to turned yet, I have really had no time to even fool with them yet. So a little premature to judge them yet. Mine have also been on the floor, I got a couple of make shift stands today. I ordered the 18" stands from Jeff, I imagine they will come with the 228.

No regrets here either, I would not change a thing, but like I said I think I could have easily have gone to the 228's and been just fine. I do have a 228 coming for the center, so I can get an idea off of one when it arrives.
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post #278 of 569 Old 04-18-2013, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

Honestly...I am struggling with all this too. A $250 pair of DIY flat pack speakers give you 90% of the sound of a $1200 set of speakers... At what point does the price vs. performance ratio kick in. I think most would agree a 2-3k set of speakers can sound 95% as good as most 10-100k speakers... The amount of diminishing returns is ...high.

So where do we draw that line... Darn if I know...

I do plan on building some DIY soon..at least flat pack.
I am surprised that you liked the SEOS and the Noesis. From your reviews and your taste I would think you would like a warmer speaker. I believe you have the Phil 2's? Have you heard any of the Salk line yet?
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post #279 of 569 Old 04-18-2013, 11:19 AM
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Dave,

that is awesome that you are enjoying yours so far. Thanks again for letting us beat em up a little (let's just call it accelerated break-in). I will be interested for sure in your findings with the 228 center. I ran a t8 center along with my t12's back when I had them. That was for sure a great setup smile.gif

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post #280 of 569 Old 04-18-2013, 11:29 AM
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Dave,

that is awesome that you are enjoying yours so far. Thanks again for letting us beat em up a little (let's just call it accelerated break-in). I will be interested for sure in your findings with the 228 center. I ran a t8 center along with my t12's back when I had them. That was for sure a great setup smile.gif
It was a pleasure. I enjoyed the whole day. I would have loved to have stayed a few more hours. It was nice to meet you, hopefully we can do it again soon.

I never did get around to ask you. Are the LS6's your primary speakers? Do you use them for H/T? I really wanted to put them back on and run some H/T clips.
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post #281 of 569 Old 04-18-2013, 11:33 AM
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No amp, I am using a new Denon 4520 and there is plenty of power. I am thinking of adding an Emotiva XPA-3, but I am wondering if it is nessacary? It would be fun to open them up with some nice power every once in awhile.

Also I don't think the 212's sound bad low, I just think they "wake up" around the -5 to -10 mark. You really start to hear the detail at that mark. Honestly mine are not even close to turned yet, I have really had no time to even fool with them yet. So a little premature to judge them yet. Mine have also been on the floor, I got a couple of make shift stands today. I ordered the 18" stands from Jeff, I imagine they will come with the 228.

No regrets here either, I would not change a thing, but like I said I think I could have easily have gone to the 228's and been just fine. I do have a 228 coming for the center, so I can get an idea off of one when it arrives.

I'm going to borrow Archaea's inuke 3000 amp here in a couple weeks I'll let you know if I notice much difference. I'll be shocked if I do, but I'm curious and have to know.

Oh, man going from the floor to stands should be a huge improvement!! If you were liking them on the floor you are going to be in heaven.

Maybe that's why you had to crank them a bit to hear the detail? Let me know what you think once you get them on stands. I know you heard them on stands at the GTG but if I read it right the CD was above hear height so that wasn't perfect either.

I also have the 18" stands from Jeff.
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post #282 of 569 Old 04-18-2013, 11:34 AM
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For all those interested..... here is the Blake track from FL Studio

http://sdrv.ms/13qaixC
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post #283 of 569 Old 04-18-2013, 11:38 AM
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Dave,

that is awesome that you are enjoying yours so far. Thanks again for letting us beat em up a little (let's just call it accelerated break-in). I will be interested for sure in your findings with the 228 center. I ran a t8 center along with my t12's back when I had them. That was for sure a great setup smile.gif
It was a pleasure. I enjoyed the whole day. I would have loved to have stayed a few more hours. It was nice to meet you, hopefully we can do it again soon.

I never did get around to ask you. Are the LS6's your primary speakers? Do you use them for H/T? I really wanted to put them back on and run some H/T clips.

Nope, I am running SEOS horns with AE td12x woofs in the theater. Before the meet the LS6's had been chilling in the back of the theater for a while actually...It was a dirty shame so when I got home, I drug them into the den area where I have my normal TV viewing area and they are being used there for the time being until I list them for sale. They really did kick butt at movies and definitely for music, I just wanted to try something else and the horns are pretty stinkin good as well smile.gif

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post #284 of 569 Old 04-18-2013, 12:04 PM
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Nope, I am running SEOS horns with AE td12x woofs in the theater. Before the meet the LS6's had been chilling in the back of the theater for a while actually...It was a dirty shame so when I got home, I drug them into the den area where I have my normal TV viewing area and they are being used there for the time being until I list them for sale. They really did kick butt at movies and definitely for music, I just wanted to try something else and the horns are pretty stinkin good as well smile.gif

You won't have any trouble selling them Beast, they are gorgeous! If you havent' seen it, AE has a facebook speaker building contest up too. If you win the diy contest, you get free AE gear.
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post #285 of 569 Old 04-18-2013, 12:07 PM
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Thanks Jake, I will certainly check that out!! Guess it's about time to double up on the 12x's and start the sealed boxes then huh? Can I use my already builtout SEOS design? Poor timing I guess, hehe..

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post #286 of 569 Old 04-18-2013, 01:35 PM
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You can throw what you have into a sealed box with another TD12x using the original crossover between one woofer and the SEOS/CD but would need to go active to shade in the other woofer. Sort of a 2.5 way passive/active design. With the DSP you could then boost the bottom end and get it to sound similar to what Mark had done with the Catalyst's. biggrin.gif
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post #287 of 569 Old 04-18-2013, 01:40 PM
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Thanks Jake, I will certainly check that out!! Guess it's about time to double up on the 12x's and start the sealed boxes then huh? Can I use my already builtout SEOS design? Poor timing I guess, hehe..


You can enter both really..no restriction on anything, other than it's complete I guess. I do like the sounds of the dual 12s though biggrin.gif
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post #288 of 569 Old 04-18-2013, 03:27 PM
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You can throw what you have into a sealed box with another TD12x using the original crossover between one woofer and the SEOS/CD but would need to go active to shade in the other woofer. Sort of a 2.5 way passive/active design. With the DSP you could then boost the bottom end and get it to sound similar to what Mark had done with the Catalyst's. biggrin.gif

That is what I was thinking initially, but I would in turn love to do full passive with the design, although that might require something along the lines of another coax kinda like the cats do to make the XO much easier. At that point, I would have to start over fresh with the XO's I would guess though...

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Thanks Jake, I will certainly check that out!! Guess it's about time to double up on the 12x's and start the sealed boxes then huh? Can I use my already builtout SEOS design? Poor timing I guess, hehe..


You can enter both really..no restriction on anything, other than it's complete I guess. I do like the sounds of the dual 12s though biggrin.gif

I promised myself I would get all my "Extra" stuff sold before I did ANYTHING else but that g2g didn't just get YOU thinking in kinds of directions, I came out of there with a whole new bar set. I had surpassed my last one with the SEOS build to start with, now what I heard almost a week ago just screwed ALL that up. Haha. I am never coming to hear your quad15 build or it will probably happen again...Just sayin' haha.

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post #289 of 569 Old 04-18-2013, 04:26 PM
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***One thing one must always consider in these sorts of things that participants were not just judging on sound, but also looks, size, what they've read about the different speakers, etc. It's worth noting that sighted evaluations of loudspeakers often don't correlate well with blind evaluations, for those reasons. Still, it's always interesting to see what's said about various designs.***

I couldn't give a rat's A** what the speakers look like in any way shape or form so for me that was a non-issue. Perhaps what I have read about certain speakers affected me, but in most of the offering's cases, I hadn't read anything substantial about them either.

Not sure why you're being so defensive, but subconscious bias is a simple fact of life. Looks, price, reputation, etc. all factor into it.

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post #290 of 569 Old 04-18-2013, 06:50 PM
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It is easy, you determine with your pocket book. If you have the money and you want it all you buy it. If you don't care or need to save some money you go with what your budget allows.

when your married the line is easy, it is right up to the price point where any more may cause a divorce! After that the only trick is moving that line higher and higher.

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or learning how to lie to your wife...tongue.gif

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It is easy, you determine with your pocket book. If you have the money and you want it all you buy it. If you don't care or need to save some money you go with what your budget allows.
You carry a pocketbook?
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post #293 of 569 Old 04-18-2013, 07:16 PM
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My whole room is DIY and clones of something. The only original piece is my processor. I can't see spending more yet. I just watched Tron and Underworld awakening at reference with the subs 9 dBs hot, it was crazy! My wife asked if I changed something because I was making the kitchen table walk upstairs above the theater. I just turned the subs up!
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post #294 of 569 Old 04-18-2013, 07:35 PM
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***One thing one must always consider in these sorts of things that participants were not just judging on sound, but also looks, size, what they've read about the different speakers, etc. It's worth noting that sighted evaluations of loudspeakers often don't correlate well with blind evaluations, for those reasons. Still, it's always interesting to see what's said about various designs.***

I couldn't give a rat's A** what the speakers look like in any way shape or form so for me that was a non-issue. Perhaps what I have read about certain speakers affected me, but in most of the offering's cases, I hadn't read anything substantial about them either.

Not sure why you're being so defensive, but subconscious bias is a simple fact of life. Looks, price, reputation, etc. all factor into it.

Not being defensive dude! Just pointing out fact. I really don't care at all what a speaker looks like, just how it performs (Case in point, just look at most of my DIY builds). Point of fact, I felt like the legacy offering was one of the best looking speakers there, but I didn't prefer the sound due to the smallish sweet spot. Definitely capable, but just not my style. They were the only speaker that I felt like I could "Listen to for days" but it was not my preference. I can assume that my LS-6's were the second best looking speakers there, but others can confirm on that. I like a big dynamic sound and the legacies didnt do that for me. Sorry for coming off as brash, not my intention...

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post #295 of 569 Old 04-18-2013, 07:38 PM
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My whole room is DIY and clones of something. The only original piece is my processor. I can't see spending more yet. I just watched Tron and Underworld awakening at reference with the subs 9 dBs hot, it was crazy! My wife asked if I changed something because I was making the kitchen table walk upstairs above the theater. I just turned the subs up!

Bout to try that myself biggrin.gif No wife present

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post #296 of 569 Old 04-18-2013, 08:25 PM
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I am surprised that you liked the SEOS and the Noesis. From your reviews and your taste I would think you would like a warmer speaker. I believe you have the Phil 2's? Have you heard any of the Salk line yet?

You hit the nail on the head...I do like warmer.

I don't think the Phil's could be said to be "warm" but they are more alive than neutral ..if that makes sense? And the clarity and sound stage are amazing.

I have not heard the Salk line... Are they warmer?

As for the Seos and Nesos...

Seos - I am using the Ascend CBM 170SE as surrounds right now ...and to my ears the SEOS beat them out. Not by much...but be enough for the price it gives me a good project to work on.

As for the Noesis... I thought they did sound forward and slightly warm. This was after a couple beers, a very long day and standing in the back for the first time... Was this not true?
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post #297 of 569 Old 04-18-2013, 09:33 PM
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I don't think you can compare to what you heard at the GTG to what you hear in your room. Those speakers can sound different in your room. That is why comparing things In the same room, position, etc.. is very important. You can't compare SEOS to the ascends until you a/b them properly in the same room and position with everything else the same. Of course anyone is free to judge anything they want in anyway they want but to be really fair that is the way to do it. When I A/B it takes me a long time to dial in every speaker being compared because I want each one to sound their best in my room for my situation. Again, that is just MHO.
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post #298 of 569 Old 04-19-2013, 06:47 AM
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You can throw what you have into a sealed box with another TD12x using the original crossover between one woofer and the SEOS/CD but would need to go active to shade in the other woofer. Sort of a 2.5 way passive/active design. With the DSP you could then boost the bottom end and get it to sound similar to what Mark had done with the Catalyst's. biggrin.gif

Three of the more popular speakers - Cats, Noesis, and Yorkville - share the same basic design with a coax/CD sandwiched between two woofers. I know that's a gross simplification, but is there any reason this hasn't been attempted with a SEOS?
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post #299 of 569 Old 04-19-2013, 06:58 AM
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Actually, the 3 designs are by people who all worked together at one time or another. I guess they were paying attention to each other on how to make speakers.
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post #300 of 569 Old 04-19-2013, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

You can throw what you have into a sealed box with another TD12x using the original crossover between one woofer and the SEOS/CD but would need to go active to shade in the other woofer. Sort of a 2.5 way passive/active design. With the DSP you could then boost the bottom end and get it to sound similar to what Mark had done with the Catalyst's. biggrin.gif

Three of the more popular speakers - Cats, Noesis, and Yorkville - share the same basic design with a coax/CD sandwiched between two woofers. I know that's a gross simplification, but is there any reason this hasn't been attempted with a SEOS?

There is a pretty good reason actually. As Mtg was saying, I would have to shade a second woofer in to do a "dual" type design. Sandwiching a coax and sandwiching the SEOS12 is completely different as the coaxes and the noesis two way CD are all capable and running down to near 3-400hz. The SEOS12 horn at least has to be crossed much higher, around 1200hz, so dragging the leftover bandwidth into the dual mids setup would be a problem.

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

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