Help! New B&W CM9s sound like crap - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 145 Old 04-18-2013, 05:35 PM
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Listen, buster, you weren't there! You never read those posts, and I'm not going to stoop low enough to describe that foul invective and garbage in detail.

You don't know what foul crap was involved and you have NO BUSINESS sticking in your nose. YOU WEREN"T THERE, and YOU DON"T KNOW!

By the standards of this site, that stuff was WAY over the limit (and it wasn't me who was posting any of it).

And I was not the only victim; there were many.

So trying to put me in the same bag as the perpetrator only displays your total ignorance of what went on.




Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Reading your criticism of Arnyk in this thread is like listening to Stalin complain that Mao Zedong was an evil despot (and no, I'm not comparing Arnyk to Mao). Change the name in your criticism in your post to commsysman, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels like are actually talking about yourself.

This has been highly entertaining. And I would like to commend you, too, on "posting somewhat more rationally over here these days, and it is a good thing."

LOL
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post #92 of 145 Old 04-18-2013, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Listen, buster, you weren't there! You never read those posts, and I'm not going to stoop low enough to describe that foul invective and garbage in detail.

You don't know what foul crap was involved and you have NO BUSINESS sticking in your nose. YOU WEREN"T THERE, and YOU DON"T KNOW!

By the standards of this site, that stuff was WAY over the limit (and it wasn't me who was posting any of it).
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Reading your criticism of Arnyk in this thread is like listening to Stalin complain that Mao Zedong was an evil despot (and no, I'm not comparing Arnyk to Mao).

Q.E.D.

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post #93 of 145 Old 04-18-2013, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Could be one of the polarity of the terminal connections is reversed. It has happened before on speakers. Although I wouldn't try to fix it. I'd put the speakers back in the box and take them to BestBuy and make them give you another pair, and try them out in store. You paid too much money for them not to go through that hassle.

Agree. But perhaps your left channel is fine? Sounds like only one of the speakers might have something wrong with it. If this cna be confirmed maybe try just exchanging one CM9.

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post #94 of 145 Old 04-18-2013, 05:47 PM
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Q.E D....???

You must have failed any course in logic you ever took.

The is NO demonstration of ANYTHING there.
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post #95 of 145 Old 04-18-2013, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Q.E D....???

You must have failed any course in logic you ever took.

The is NO demonstration of ANYTHING there.

Feel free to keep making my point for me smile.gif

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post #96 of 145 Old 04-18-2013, 06:31 PM
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Knock it off guys...

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post #97 of 145 Old 04-18-2013, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manzola View Post

Yeah I toed them in and moved them further away from the wall...as much as I could, prob about 2ft and a half. Sound much better after I reset the AV again.

One thing, pulling them away from the front wall has not much effect whats bouncing of the rear windows and side window. I know probably you will have the speaker set the way you have now, but i would least give a try to set them along the side window, so that your speaker wont be firing directly to the window.
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post #98 of 145 Old 04-18-2013, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Could be one of the polarity of the terminal connections is reversed. It has happened before on speakers. Although I wouldn't try to fix it. I'd put the speakers back in the box and take them to BestBuy and make them give you another pair, and try them out in store. You paid too much money for them not to go through that hassle.

Yeah I tend to agree with this. These are, relatively speaking, very expensive speakers and you should get them replaced with new ones.
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post #99 of 145 Old 04-18-2013, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

The fact that your CM5's sounded so much better leads me to believe there is something wrong with the 9's as well. I would take them back to Best Buy, have them hook them up to your same receiver along with the floor demo model and A/B the two.

No, because the larger the speaker, the more space it requires. The CM5 are much smaller speakers so therefore, need much less space than the new CM9.
The reason the dialogue is difficult to hear AND the bass is boomy is all due to the limited space.

Please understand how acoustic wavelengths are affected by room boundaries.
Your lower frequencies are getting a huge boost while your higher frequencies are being cancelled out.

THAT is why I suggested you measure your FR.
That is the only way to fix your problem for sure.
Take my advice and fix your problem in 10min or go back and forth guessing and waste weeks of your time. Choice is yours...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Yeah I tend to agree with this. These are, relatively speaking, very expensive speakers and you should get them replaced with new ones.

He could give a that a try. Honestly, that's much more work than doing a simple measurement.
Those are not very small speakers and good luck returning it to BestBuy if you ding just a tiny part of it. Not to mention BestBuys new 90 day black list policy that might hit your credit score.
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post #100 of 145 Old 04-18-2013, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

I use the same one there as here, and always have.

If you can't remember, maybe that's because you are on different/better medication now.

I only take meds for high blood pressure and a blood thinner, so that fantasy of yours is as broken as all the rest.

I challenge you to vindicate yourself by producing a post from you that I responded to or vice versa. I sure can't find any. The SP forum has posts going all the way back, so there are no excuses.

I posted there a few times after the 2005 debate and lost interest, once posts that mentioned good listening tests were banned, except under a very narrow set of circumstances.
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post #101 of 145 Old 04-18-2013, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yelnatsch517 View Post

No, because the larger the speaker, the more space it requires. The CM5 are much smaller speakers so therefore, need much less space than the new CM9.
The reason the dialogue is difficult to hear AND the bass is boomy is all due to the limited space.

Please understand how acoustic wavelengths are affected by room boundaries.
Your lower frequencies are getting a huge boost while your higher frequencies are being cancelled out.

THAT is why I suggested you measure your FR.
That is the only way to fix your problem for sure.
Take my advice and fix your problem in 10min or go back and forth guessing and waste weeks of your time. Choice is yours...
He could give a that a try. Honestly, that's much more work than doing a simple measurement.
Those are not very small speakers and good luck returning it to BestBuy if you ding just a tiny part of it. Not to mention BestBuys new 90 day black list policy that might hit your credit score.

I was recommending he return them based on this:
Quote:
I got a "reverse phase" warning on the right speaker...what does this mean?

If it was my $3000+tax, I would not start opening up speakers to rewire them if it was wired wrong at the factory.. Hence my recommendation to take them back.
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post #102 of 145 Old 04-18-2013, 07:32 PM
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post #103 of 145 Old 04-18-2013, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Listen, buster, you weren't there! You never read those posts, and I'm not going to stoop low enough to describe that foul invective and garbage in detail.

You don't know what foul crap was involved and you have NO BUSINESS sticking in your nose. YOU WEREN"T THERE, and YOU DON"T KNOW!

The forum seems to be largely intact. It is readily searchable. I find a number of mentions of me there, but none taking exception to my behavior. That is a place where there aren't a lot of fans of DBTs and that's the gist of the mentions of my name.
Quote:
By the standards of this site, that stuff was WAY over the limit (and it wasn't me who was posting any of it).

And I was not the only victim; there were many.

I hardly posted there. Talking about DBTs was largely banned and after that, ????
Quote:
So trying to put me in the same bag as the perpetrator only displays your total ignorance of what went on.

The forum seems to be intact, Please link any posts of mine that you think support your exceptional claims. Please link any posts of people responding to my alleged behavior.
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post #104 of 145 Old 04-18-2013, 07:51 PM
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Since it's from Best Buy, it should be a simple return.

Just return them and say they sound bad/ defective. And try another pair.
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post #105 of 145 Old 04-18-2013, 07:52 PM
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@Manzola, this is what I would do:

1. Move the speakers away from the wall so that the front baffle is at least even with the front of the entertainment center (farther would be better). Toe them in towards your MLP.
2. In the AVR, set the speaker impedance to 4 ohms (or 6 ohms if the receiver doesn't have a 4 ohm setting).
3. In the AVR, disable any room correction (YPAO?, once your problem is sorted out you can always run another calibration).
4. In the AVR, set the front speakers to Large/Full Range.
5. In the AVR, make sure no crossover is set (from what I've gathered, you don't have a subwoofer to crossover to, yet).
6. In the AVR, enable Stereo or Direct or Pure Direct mode (whatever Yamaha calls it).
7. On the Speakers, install the partial plug in the reflex port and if the bass is still to strong install the full plug.
8. In your room, slide the vertical blinds across the windows and slightly crack the blinds open so that they will somewhat diffuse/absorb the sound waves rather than having a hard reflective surface.
9. Take those grossly expensive (IMHO) Rocket 33 speaker cable back to Best Buy for a refund.
10. Go to Home Depot/Monoprice/BlueJeansCable and buy some 12 or 14 gauge non-hocus pocus (IMHO) speaker cable (and with the change, buy yourself around 15 or 20 CDs).
11. If you can't do #9 & #10, please explain how you have the speakers wired at the speaker end and at the receiver end. Those Rocket 33 cables look like they have 4 connectors at one end and 2 connectors at the other end, and if true could lead to a miswiring condition that could result in an out of phase problem (which apparently your YPAO is reporting).

If correcting the speaker cabling doesn't resolve the out of phase condition, then you truly might have been unlucky enough to receive an internally mis-wired set of speakers, which would obviously need to be replaced.

HTH.

Edit: I see that you have a Pioneer AVR and not a Yamaha, so substitute MCACC for YPAO.

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post #106 of 145 Old 04-18-2013, 07:54 PM
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I read Post #96.

I have every intention of doing as it suggests.

No more posts here from me.
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post #107 of 145 Old 04-18-2013, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatuglyguy View Post

Well, that's at least part of (likely the majority of) your problem right there. If you are wiring it correctly to the receiver then something is probably screwy inside the CM9 you're using as your FR channel.

Could be one of the polarity of the terminal connections is reversed. It has happened before on speakers. Although I wouldn't try to fix it. I'd put the speakers back in the box and take them to BestBuy and make them give you another pair, and try them out in store. You paid too much money for them not to go through that hassle.

General possibility - defective speakers.

Not that hard to take them back, and see what the Geek Squad or whatever have to say.
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post #108 of 145 Old 04-18-2013, 08:01 PM
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If commsysman's suggestion to try a C cell battery works (likely lost in the banter) that sounds like the easiest test to see if a speaker is wired wrong internally. If that is okay, start working way to amp, then back to BB. I realize what a pain this is, that sucks.

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post #109 of 145 Old 04-18-2013, 08:31 PM
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I return the speakers just because there are doubts of their quality. Given your layout, I'd use that stand in another room or sell it. Also, sometimes MCACC goofs up and identifies a speaker out of phase. I could be reflections thats causing it to think that.

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post #110 of 145 Old 04-18-2013, 08:38 PM
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It might be a PITA but you could try moving them off that wall completely. You could run wire long enough to temporarily place them a couple of feet in front of your window so they fire into the room. This way you don't have any walls directly to either side or behind them. Listen and see if you still have the issue. If they sound fine then it's placement related, if not, take them back.
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post #111 of 145 Old 04-18-2013, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post

It might be a PITA but you could try moving them off that wall completely. You could run wire long enough to temporarily place them a couple of feet in front of your window so they fire into the room. This way you don't have any walls directly to either side or behind them. Listen and see if you still have the issue. If they sound fine then it's placement related, if not, take them back.

+1 I was just about to post something similar. Agreed, if this doesn't work the speakers should be returned.

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post #112 of 145 Old 04-18-2013, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

I was recommending he return them based on this:
If it was my $3000+tax, I would not start opening up speakers to rewire them if it was wired wrong at the factory.. Hence my recommendation to take them back.

When his receiver throws a phase warning, it means he either wired the polarities incorrectly or the room reflections are messing heavily with the calibration.

I highly doubt his speakers are wired out of phase.rolleyes.gif
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post #113 of 145 Old 04-19-2013, 01:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yelnatsch517 View Post

By baffle inserts do you mean port plugs?
That won't change anything in the upper frequency response.

He's got a acoustic reflection problem. Changing the room is the only method of fixing the problem.
His FR curve and distortion must be horrible.

Easiest way to test it out is to take his speakers and put them in a carpeted room, 2ft from all surfaces. If it doesn't sound worlds better, then it might be time to change speakers.
This was for his boom sound from being so close to the wall but thanks for not reading his concerns and jumping to correct me on my suggestions..

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post #114 of 145 Old 04-19-2013, 04:39 AM
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Looking at your room setup those speakers seem to be a bad fit for your room. You may want to consider the B&W PM-1's. Cost is about equal to the CM-9's. Plus they are front ported which will make them easier to place. You can fill in the bottom w/a well placed sub.smile.gif
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post #115 of 145 Old 04-19-2013, 04:40 AM
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Manzola.
If you still have your old speaker cables would you hook them up and remove the Rocket cables to see if thinks sound the same.
I just read the product info from the audioquest site.
Rocket 33 single-biwire cable.
Single connection at the amp.
Double connection at the speaker. The first set of connecters are baised toward the treble and the second set of connecters are baised to ward the bass.

WTF does that mean?
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post #116 of 145 Old 04-19-2013, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Lambert View Post

Manzola.
If you still have your old speaker cables would you hook them up and remove the Rocket cables to see if thinks sound the same.
I just read the product info from the audioquest site.
Rocket 33 single-biwire cable.
Single connection at the amp.
Double connection at the speaker. The first set of connecters are baised toward the treble and the second set of connecters are baised to ward the bass.

WTF does that mean?

It appears to mean something that is not true. :-(

http://www2.audioquest.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/UndrstndgBiWr.pdf

"When using a single full-range speaker cable (not BiWiring) the large
amounts of bass energy carried within the single cable has an adverse
effect on the upper frequencies. In a BiWire set-up the cable feeding the
higher frequencies no longer handles the large magnetic fields caused by
the high current needed to produce bass. BiWiring does not affect the bass
fundamentals, but the treble signal now travels a less disturbed path. It’s a
little like the difference between swimming through waves versus through
smooth water. Bass frequencies will sound better because bass definition
is actually located in the midrange and higher frequencies. . It is always
worthwhile to take advantage of the benefits of BiWiring when the speaker
manufacturer has gone to the extra expense of providing this capability. The
performance benefits of reducing distortion in this way are substantial. "

The apparent false claim is nicely positioned in the first sentence:

When using a single full-range speaker cable (not BiWiring) the large
amounts of bass energy carried within the single cable has an adverse
effect on the upper frequencies.

I read this as a claim that ordinary pure copper wire is subject to audible amounts of nonlinear or Intermodulation (IM) distortion. IM distortion is easy enough to stimulate and measure these days, so if and when it exists, it can't escape a good technician.

Now, lets look at the current state of the art of audio and see what parts of the audio reproduction chain are susceptible to IM:

(1) Some acoustic and electronic instruments have some susceptibility to IM.
(2) Microphones have far less, but some susceptibility to IM.
(3) Microphone cables have essentially zero susceptibility to IM. It takes SOTA measurements to find such tiny traces of it that exist.
(4) Microphone amplifiers and mixers can have very, very low susceptibility to IM.
(5) The digital domain can have essentially zero susceptibility to IM. However ADCs and DACs have more, and in the same general realm as amplifiers and mixers.
(6) Power amplifiers and mixers can have about the same susceptibility to IM as mic mixers and amplifiers, but trend a little higher.
(7) Speaker cables have essentially zero susceptibility to IM. It takes SOTA measurements to find such tiny traces of it that exist.
(8) Loudspeakers have quite a bit of susceptibility to IM.
(9) The air has some susceptibility to IM which increases at high SPLs.
(10) human ears have quite a bit of susceptibility to IM sometimes even more than speakers at higher SPLs (above 85 dB SPL)

Bottom line, chasing the IM in your speaker cables is a waste of time if for no other reason then there are other parts of your system that are also under your control that have far more IM.

Doing things like relying on subwoofers rather than full range floorstanding speakers can massively reduce the IM in your home audio system. Ideally, you'd have some good floorstanders and then really bodacious subwoofers. Would I recommend $2000 subwoofers for use with $200 floorstanders? In a heartbeat!
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post #117 of 145 Old 04-19-2013, 05:15 AM
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I own CM9 HT (5.1) and they are just phenomenal. But I switched around the receivers and found pioneer elite not so good (to me). I have two suggestions:

1) Move the speakers little forward enough that front of the speakers should level with end of the wall. It will give CM9s more space to sing (disperse sound).
2) Test out Denon 4520ci, I can say with confidence you will get better sound out of your CMs (way better room correction than elite).

I had a Pioneer elite 65 and I like the sound of it for a while but I got tired of its emotion less super clean sound (they were too bright for me). Also the dialogs were not as clear. I switched to Marantz 7701 and Marantz 7055, and they brought the warmth and air back in the sound. The sound was in the sweet spot again and can hear clean clear dialogs. Then I bought the Denon 4520ci, WOW is all I can say. They sound reproduction is un believable, I feel like sound is in the AIR (haha, perfect belend of speakers and sub sound). I also have AUDIOQUEST chocolate HDMI and it has made a difference in the sound as well (you have to try it to believe it).
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post #118 of 145 Old 04-19-2013, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by yelnatsch517 View Post

When his receiver throws a phase warning, it means he either wired the polarities incorrectly or the room reflections are messing heavily with the calibration.

I highly doubt his speakers are wired out of phase.rolleyes.gif

The OP has disabled room EQ and sat right next to the speaker and still noticed distortion and had to excessively turn up the volume to properly hear dialogue. When you sit very close to the speaker you are reducing the effects of the room. I totally agree with others that speaker placement and the room are an issue here, but I am not convinced that is the only thing wrong.

He has stated he has checked the wiring multiple times, so I don't think he wired the speakers incorrectly, and I believe he has tried other speaker cable.

I don't know what else to say. If he has tried everything that has been asked and the speakers still sound like crap, I would exchange them for something different. Probably something more suited for his room. Why would you recommend keeping a pair of $3K speakers if they don't sound as good as the speakers he had before that cost half the price rolleyes.gif
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post #119 of 145 Old 04-19-2013, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by phalen302 View Post

I own CM9 HT (5.1) and they are just phenomenal. But I switched around the receivers and found pioneer elite not so good (to me). I have two suggestions:

1) Move the speakers little forward enough that front of the speakers should level with end of the wall. It will give CM9s more space to sing (disperse sound).
2) Test out Denon 4520ci, I can say with confidence you will get better sound out of your CMs (way better room correction than elite).

I had a Pioneer elite 65 and I like the sound of it for a while but I got tired of its emotion less super clean sound (they were too bright for me). Also the dialogs were not as clear. I switched to Marantz 7701 and Marantz 7055, and they brought the warmth and air back in the sound. The sound was in the sweet spot again and can hear clean clear dialogs. Then I bought the Denon 4520ci, WOW is all I can say. They sound reproduction is un believable, I feel like sound is in the AIR (haha, perfect belend of speakers and sub sound). I also have AUDIOQUEST chocolate HDMI and it has made a difference in the sound as well (you have to try it to believe it).

I kid you not I had the same thoughts about the running the CM9s with the Elite- yesterday when I went back to Magnolia to figure out WTF was wrong with my speakers I found the Marantz really made them sing.

It's probably the Class D sound that makes neutral speakers sound less alive...

I'm at a juncture here guys, I really don't know what to do. I want to build a CM 5.1 set and I know my room sucks. Should I just replace the faulty speakers and suck it up?? I don't own this place so one day I will move somewhere that could have better acoustic properties.

Or should I:

1. Give up and build an HT with CM5s as fronts
2. Give up and buy the Sonus faber Venere 2.5 + set
3. Give up altogether and go back to soundbar
4. Keep the CM9s ( with replacements), build the CM HT and cry myself to sleep knowing that they won't sound as good as they are meant to.
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post #120 of 145 Old 04-19-2013, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Manzola View Post

I kid you not I had the same thoughts about the running the CM9s with the Elite- yesterday when I went back to Magnolia to figure out WTF was wrong with my speakers I found the Marantz really made them sing.

It's probably the Class D sound that makes neutral speakers sound less alive...

I'm at a juncture here guys, I really don't know what to do. I want to build a CM 5.1 set and I know my room sucks. Should I just replace the faulty speakers and suck it up?? I don't own this place so one day I will move somewhere that could have better acoustic properties.

Or should I:

1. Give up and build an HT with CM5s as fronts
2. Give up and buy the Sonus faber Venere 2.5 + set
3. Give up altogether and go back to soundbar
4. Keep the CM9s ( with replacements), build the CM HT and cry myself to sleep knowing that they won't sound as good as they are meant to.

I think option #4 makes the least amount of sense unless you knew you were going to move to a place that had a better room for the speakers. Which you don't smile.gif
I am not a fan of soundbars, so it is hard to recommend that option for me. That said with your room, I can understand why you would consider one.
Do you have other audio retailers nearby aside from Best Buy? Perhaps you have already done this, but I would bring a sketch of the room and space with you and look at other options in the bookshelf department.
One last option. Instead of dropping a decent amount of money on a soundbar, consider bookshelf speakers from internet direct companies like ARX, Aperion, EmpTek., Hsu, SVS, HTD, Ascend etc. With a subwoofer, you will spend a fraction of your cost versus the B&W, etc and still get much better sound than a soundbar. Sell them in a couple of years when you move or keep them for surrounds, or for another room.
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