Help! New B&W CM9s sound like crap - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 145 Old 04-19-2013, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

The OP has disabled room EQ and sat right next to the speaker and still noticed distortion and had to excessively turn up the volume to properly hear dialogue. When you sit very close to the speaker you are reducing the effects of the room. I totally agree with others that speaker placement and the room are an issue here, but I am not convinced that is the only thing wrong.

He has stated he has checked the wiring multiple times, so I don't think he wired the speakers incorrectly, and I believe he has tried other speaker cable.

I don't know what else to say. If he has tried everything that has been asked and the speakers still sound like crap, I would exchange them for something different. Probably something more suited for his room. Why would you recommend keeping a pair of $3K speakers if they don't sound as good as the speakers he had before that cost half the price rolleyes.gif
I never asked suggested he keep his speakers if they are defective. I merely suggested he ensures that they are defective before returning them.
I am a bit rusty on my physics, but I believe it might be less work to pull out the speakers a few feet from the walls to test them as compared to pulling them out, boxing them up, loading them into the car, and driving them back to BB.

At this point, he should probably just return/exchange them.
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post #122 of 145 Old 04-19-2013, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Manzola View Post

1. Give up and build an HT with CM5s as fronts

I think this works. Add a very good sub, such as a Rythmik sealed sub, and it will produce very good bass to fill out the low end.

And I'm not sure why you choose the soundbar at all over the CM5s, unless it is for HT usage. In which case, why not get the matching center for the CM5s? Still cheaper than the CM9s.

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post #123 of 145 Old 04-19-2013, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Manzola View Post

I kid you not I had the same thoughts about the running the CM9s with the Elite- yesterday when I went back to Magnolia to figure out WTF was wrong with my speakers I found the Marantz really made
them sing.

It's probably the Class D sound that makes neutral speakers sound less alive...

I'm at a juncture here guys, I really don't know what to do. I want to build a CM 5.1 set and I know my room sucks. Should I just replace the faulty speakers and suck it up?? I don't own this place so one day I will move somewhere that could have better acoustic properties.

Or should I:

1. Give up and build an HT with CM5s as fronts
2. Give up and buy the Sonus faber Venere 2.5 + set
3. Give up altogether and go back to soundbar
4. Keep the CM9s ( with replacements), build the CM HT and cry myself to sleep knowing that they won't sound as good as they are meant to.



I have the CM5's with CM Center with stands that i would part with for 1600..

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post #124 of 145 Old 04-19-2013, 11:44 AM
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like very one said to close to the wall and the room dynamics are not the best ,

i have the 683 almost the same speakers.

also being brand new these things really need some time to settle in and break them in,

give it a good 40 hours or so to brake them loose,

also you need some space

my 683 are set for large your should be too !! if its to much bass just turn the lower frequencys down some,
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post #125 of 145 Old 04-19-2013, 11:54 AM
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Hey I read Most of this.... I have CM9s and mine are about 18 inches from the walls. I actually want to buy an Emotiva Amp for them next, I am listening in a ~14' by 17' space. Concrete floor.

I know you bought them from BB if you got Audioquest cables so... take them back. Get another pair of CM9s or consider CM8s. CM8s may be better fitted to your room. Your receiver has tons of power, more than mine I think you are cool.

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post #126 of 145 Old 04-19-2013, 12:18 PM
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So if something doesn't sound right and you purchased them locally...return them! If you had the CM5's and they sound good and now these sound bad, return them. Buy another pair and see if they sound better. Tell the manager the issue and hopefully he'll let you try another pair. I don't see why not.

If you're not happy with them still, then bring them back again. If you can't figure out what is wrong with them by doing some experiments then that's the only way it'll get resolved.

I don't see a massive difference like dialog not being well heard until -15db just coming from adding 2 midbass drivers and raising the tweeter/midrange 6". The 4kHz crossover to the tweeter is the same in both speakers meaning they should sound relatively the same until just above the 350hz crossover from the midbass to the midrange driver (not sure of slope on these, but unless it's 6db the difference between the 2 speakers likely keeps getting smaller).

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post #127 of 145 Old 04-19-2013, 12:24 PM
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I would exchange the speakers and also look into some room treatments. You can DIY some acoustic panels. It sounds like you're shopping at a Magnolia Design Center if they carry Sonus Faber; Design Centers also sell acoustic panels for room treatment.

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post #128 of 145 Old 04-19-2013, 03:21 PM
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@Manzola,

Just out of curiosity, can you explain how the speaker cable is connected on the receiver end? Those Rocket 33 cables appear to have 2 banana plugs on the speaker end (that's normal), but they have 4 banana plugs on the receiver/amp end (this is odd). How do you have those 4 banana plugs connected to your AVR?

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post #129 of 145 Old 04-19-2013, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laulau View Post

@Manzola,

Just out of curiosity, can you explain how the speaker cable is connected on the receiver end? Those Rocket 33 cables appear to have 2 banana plugs on the speaker end (that's normal), but they have 4 banana plugs on the receiver/amp end (this is odd). How do you have those 4 banana plugs connected to your AVR?



Oh boy!!!

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post #130 of 145 Old 04-19-2013, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by kingofthecrate View Post

Oh boy!!!

I'm gonna let you take this one...

biggrin.gif

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post #131 of 145 Old 04-19-2013, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laulau View Post

@Manzola,

Just out of curiosity, can you explain how the speaker cable is connected on the receiver end? Those Rocket 33 cables appear to have 2 banana plugs on the speaker end (that's normal), but they have 4 banana plugs on the receiver/amp end (this is odd). How do you have those 4 banana plugs connected to your AVR?

I already asked about this way back in the post...I believe he just has a full-range prep'd pair, i.e. 2 bananas on both ends.

B.

PS And the four ends are to go into the speaker end, not the amp end....
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post #132 of 145 Old 04-19-2013, 05:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Brian B View Post

I already asked about this way back in the post...I believe he just has a full-range prep'd pair, i.e. 2 bananas on both ends.

B.

PS And the four ends are to go into the speaker end, not the amp end....


Lolz I may a newb, but I can read labels smile.gif

These are full band with two -/+ banana plugs on each end. I was about to bi-amp them to see if it would make a difference (I have spare cables to be able to do this)...but at this point i'm exhausted from living behind my TV console.

Additionally.... 4/5 times MCACC detected reverse phase on the right speaker.....

It also needs to have the volume adjusted because it doesn't come out the same as the left.

I calibrated it manually and they sound pretty good now. But they DO NOT sound like $3000 speakers. More like $700/$800. ( See new arrangement in pics)

I might try out the Sonus faber, I have read that they are more forgiving than the B&W. I tried them out the other day and they sounded quite good on the Pioneer Elite.


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post #133 of 145 Old 04-19-2013, 05:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatuglyguy View Post

I would exchange the speakers and also look into some room treatments. You can DIY some acoustic panels. It sounds like you're shopping at a Magnolia Design Center if they carry Sonus Faber; Design Centers also sell acoustic panels for room treatment.

Yes it was at a design center- Realistically there is no place I could put sound treatment without making it look ghastly- But it can't be worse than my current DIY sound treatment I put up smile.gif

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post #134 of 145 Old 04-19-2013, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manzola View Post

Yes it was at a design center- Realistically there is no place I could put sound treatment without making it look ghastly- But it can't be worse than my current DIY sound treatment I put up smile.gif


Good lord, that is an acoustic nightmare if I ever saw one.
Absolutely beautiful view though! biggrin.gif
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post #135 of 145 Old 04-19-2013, 09:20 PM
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Reverse polarity on your right speaker and listen. Sound better? Run MCACC and see how that sounds.

It's possible your midrange is out of phase. Can you take it out and see what each looks like. If you can tell or if they look the same then swap polarity on just that right midrange and listen. Sound better?

Phase issues are more apparent at lower frequencies, so the dialog issues make me believe it could be your midrange. When you get up into the frequencies covered by the tweeter issues are more dependent on level (spl) rather than phase (especially when crossed high like most 3 ways)

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post #136 of 145 Old 04-19-2013, 09:23 PM
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And for something else to try... If you have a more plush rug than the one in the pics in front of the speakers, put it just in front of the speakers. Did that change anything? You could be getting some peaks due to floor bounce and those peaks are coloring the midrange

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post #137 of 145 Old 04-20-2013, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ousooner2 View Post

Reverse polarity on your right speaker and listen. Sound better? Run MCACC and see how that sounds.

It's possible your midrange is out of phase. Can you take it out and see what each looks like. If you can tell or if they look the same then swap polarity on just that right midrange and listen. Sound better?

Phase issues are more apparent at lower frequencies, so the dialog issues make me believe it could be your midrange. When you get up into the frequencies covered by the tweeter issues are more dependent on level (spl) rather than phase (especially when crossed high like most 3 ways)


The mid-range being out of phase sounds about right, I feel like that's precisely where clarity is lacking. It's not a dead spot, it's just dull.
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post #138 of 145 Old 04-20-2013, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manzola View Post

Yes it was at a design center- Realistically there is no place I could put sound treatment without making it look ghastly- But it can't be worse than my current DIY sound treatment I put up smile.gif
Have you looked into heavy velvet curtain drapes? Those could work as sound treatment as well. The idea is to reduce the amount of hard surfaces to reduce reflections.
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post #139 of 145 Old 04-21-2013, 04:03 AM
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Manzola,

Your room is almost certainly the biggest problem. Moving the speakers forward isn't going to come close to solving the problem. The most important factor in speaker placement is not the distance from the wall behind the speakers; instead it is the distance to the side walls. A speaker that is significantly closer to the side than the other is going to cause really really big problems -- the soundstage and imaging are going to be terrible.

Try this:
Configure one MCACC preset to be -12 dB on the right speaker, and +6 dB on the left. Configure another MCACC preset to be +6 dB on the right, -12 dB on the left. Now listen to some music and switch between the two presets. Do they sound significantly different?
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post #140 of 145 Old 04-21-2013, 08:22 AM
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Amy updates on my suggestions or the above suggestion?

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post #141 of 145 Old 04-22-2013, 09:06 PM
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+1 on the heavy window drapes, you'll appreciate having those for some privacy when you have lady-friends over. I know a lot of women who don't like strutting around with such an open view. What I'd do is this : Buy a drop down screen, get rid of your TV, get a projector, and change the orientation of your speakers. I was a huge fan of B&W until I was about to buy the CM9s, and I got some Klipsch THX Ultra 2s instead, which in the end, I think neither were the best for me, but I had a much bigger place than I do now, and I really think you need to listen to your ears telling you, if your smaller speakers sounded better, put them back in!! Save the money for some nice scotch! Sure, the CM9s are beauties, but short of moving to another place or putting drapes and carpets everywhere, they will probably sound like teh suckage no matter what you do. In fact, I agree with most people here, if your room is the culprit, then NO larger speaker will be well suited. Who knows? You will, once you try. I'd try a few more bookshelf speakers and set them up on the walls, with a decent sub.

Also, one comment here about missing the center and having to pump your volume to hear anything, that's exactly the behavior you get on a system configured for a center that isn't there, you can barely hear the voice because some of it spills over into the left and right channels in the mix, so, what I'd so is leave one on left, and the other as the center, and try that. If all of a sudden you hear voice well, then that's it. I wouldn't do any fancy EQing until I got the basics down. My Kilpsch horn tweeter blew and I thought it was my receiver not being able to drive it so I got an Emotiva, solved everything. I would return the CM9s for another pair, AND try another more powerful amp (very important, trust me one time when it was my fault that I blew my compression driver, was because I tried running my 4 ohm speakers on my Marantz because my Emotiva amp connectors had been bent off by accident and it was a party situation that I couldn't forego music). Anyway, if you can still return / exchange, do that. Definitely get some acoustic treatments, panels, a carpet, some drapes, no matter what speakers you get. Good luck man!

ps nice doggy
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post #142 of 145 Old 04-24-2013, 07:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superbooga View Post

Manzola,

Your room is almost certainly the biggest problem. Moving the speakers forward isn't going to come close to solving the problem. The most important factor in speaker placement is not the distance from the wall behind the speakers; instead it is the distance to the side walls. A speaker that is significantly closer to the side than the other is going to cause really really big problems -- the soundstage and imaging are going to be terrible.

Try this:
Configure one MCACC preset to be -12 dB on the right speaker, and +6 dB on the left. Configure another MCACC preset to be +6 dB on the right, -12 dB on the left. Now listen to some music and switch between the two presets. Do they sound significantly different?


Sorry for the late response! I'm traveling for work right now BUT I did do some experimenting before I left.

I reversed the polarity on the right speaker and that seems to make the sound MUCH better. I'm quite certain they may be out of phase, specifically the right speaker being the culprit.

They also had some time to break in and sound much better than before. I would argue the following variables have had the biggest impact in improving the sound:

1. Running pure direct mode on the pioneer ( no digital correction garbage)
2. Toeing them in
3. Pulling them about 2 feet away from the wall
4. Reversing polarity on the right speaker
5. Breaking them in
6. Setting the cross-over point to 80hz
7. A small prayer
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post #143 of 145 Old 04-24-2013, 07:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post

+1 on the heavy window drapes, you'll appreciate having those for some privacy when you have lady-friends over. I know a lot of women who don't like strutting around with such an open view. What I'd do is this : Buy a drop down screen, get rid of your TV, get a projector, and change the orientation of your speakers. I was a huge fan of B&W until I was about to buy the CM9s, and I got some Klipsch THX Ultra 2s instead, which in the end, I think neither were the best for me, but I had a much bigger place than I do now, and I really think you need to listen to your ears telling you, if your smaller speakers sounded better, put them back in!! Save the money for some nice scotch! Sure, the CM9s are beauties, but short of moving to another place or putting drapes and carpets everywhere, they will probably sound like teh suckage no matter what you do. In fact, I agree with most people here, if your room is the culprit, then NO larger speaker will be well suited. Who knows? You will, once you try. I'd try a few more bookshelf speakers and set them up on the walls, with a decent sub.

Also, one comment here about missing the center and having to pump your volume to hear anything, that's exactly the behavior you get on a system configured for a center that isn't there, you can barely hear the voice because some of it spills over into the left and right channels in the mix, so, what I'd so is leave one on left, and the other as the center, and try that. If all of a sudden you hear voice well, then that's it. I wouldn't do any fancy EQing until I got the basics down. My Kilpsch horn tweeter blew and I thought it was my receiver not being able to drive it so I got an Emotiva, solved everything. I would return the CM9s for another pair, AND try another more powerful amp (very important, trust me one time when it was my fault that I blew my compression driver, was because I tried running my 4 ohm speakers on my Marantz because my Emotiva amp connectors had been bent off by accident and it was a party situation that I couldn't forego music). Anyway, if you can still return / exchange, do that. Definitely get some acoustic treatments, panels, a carpet, some drapes, no matter what speakers you get. Good luck man!

ps nice doggy


Thankfully most of my the lady friends I find on craigslist don't mind everyone can see inside my apartment for miles.

Unfortunately it wouldn't be practical to get a projection screen or change the orientation of the speakers, but it's alright because I won't live in this place forever. That's essentially why I might be willing to put up with the CM9s or the Veneres not sounding their best for a little while.

Let me just clarify that there was something definitively wrong with that setup ( I mean the speakers themselves) because no speaker should sound like that, not even a $400.00 speaker regardless of room configuration.

I'm 100% going to exchange these. Will buy a thick rug, and keep the blinds closed for listening and movies which seem to have made a tangible difference.

Also thinking about Emotivas even-though some people say the Pioneer SC-67 should have no problem driving them, but I feel that the headroom from a dedicated amp should only help.

The doggy ( Mango) is actually the one that originally helped me determine there was a problem with the right speaker when I did a high frequency test...he didn't like that too much, I knew for sure if they were good speakers it would sound good to him!
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post #144 of 145 Old 04-27-2013, 04:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Update: Went to Magnolia and exchanged my CM9s today. Just finished setting them up and all I can say is WOW, what a difference. In conclusion there was def a problem and I went with my gut.
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post #145 of 145 Old 04-28-2013, 03:42 PM
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Good to hear and thanx for the update. Always best to follow your gut instinct. Now you can get down to business and start enjoying your HT and less stressing.
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