20,000 dollar Speaker Budget whats the best value Speakers? New or Used? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 133 Old 05-02-2013, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

There are a bunch of companies going with AMT tweeters. Steinway Lingdorf is using them in their TOL speakers, but they're also using them in the lower level speakers as well. Of course their "lower level" speakers are still in the $60K to $80K range. rolleyes.gif

Triad is coming out with their Cinema Reference Line using AMT tweeters. They'll be $15K+ per speaker. Interestingly, the Triads's will use a waveguide/horn on the AMT Tweeter. Triad calls it a "dispersion lens."

Legacy's use of the AMT's is actually the most cost effective use. You can get AMT tweeters in their lines from the the Signature Series, ($6K/pair MSRP), on up.

Craig

I've worked with a number of AMT's, including the original big Heil. They vary widely in quality, and have to be implemented carefully, since they rarely have an inherently smooth response. Below, for example, is how the original Heil measures with no crossover. I managed to get good results with it, although vertical dispersion is limited.


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post #92 of 133 Old 05-02-2013, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by FOH View Post


I'd solicit the expertise of someone like Mark Seaton, or Nyal, at Acoustic Frontiers, and examine the room ... and then approach the speaker purchase/room strategy as a combined exercise.
What Danley created with the SH50 is remarkable, no doubt. Yeah, he's a genius.


Here's Tom with another genius, multi-patent holder, DB Keele;

*





I'd really enjoy mixing a show thru a Danley rig;

*


*

Is that a pair of SH50's on top of 6 LAB subs? They must have wanted serious bass for that gig. I strongly doubt that a pair of SH50's would be able to match the output of those LAB subs. I would love to hear them try though. Heck, I've only ever heard SH50's once and they are poorly deployed in a church (nothing against the church but I'm not sure the situation is letting the SH50's shine, plus they threw a couple Behringer subs on the floor after the fact...talk about a miscalculation).

Loren Jones
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post #93 of 133 Old 05-02-2013, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Bassfeen View Post

Dennis,

What if i get the bottom Bass Cabinets Reworked furniture grade Teak Wood. There is defiantly something wrong with the bass it just sounds like its waffling all over the place. Unless my cabinet has some form of rejects?

Actually the phills 3 are the only speaker part of my collection i don’t wish to sell if i can sort the bass cabinet out. I prob set this up in the bedroom instead. I like them allot but in my main room its not working out.

I have Acoustic Egg Foam On the Ceiling, Over 30 Acoustic Panels and every corner has Large 2 Meter Long Bass Traps.

The room is Totally Dead!



Im not against JTR Speakers im just giving my overview opinion on them and consider my opinion as a grain os rice. I do not have enough experience in this field to advise anyone except share what i feel about certain speakers.


I do like Large speakers which are well designed, The Danley are a keeper for me, Like Acudeftech guy i like to buy and collect them :-)

I think the SH50 is the one of the best kept secrets in the Audio Business, As i have not heard any speaker which presents movies or music in such manner. Its like your wearing headphones. The sound is so direct to the ears it cannot be done by conventional design. Ton Danley is genius. If he used higher quality drivers in this same design and construction i believe his speakers will outclass many so called high end.


Have you noticed many high end speakers are all high sensitivity??

Well I'm glad to see you are able to enjoy so many wonderful speakers. I'm surprised you don't have some TH221's to go with your SH50's. Or maybe a DTS10.

Well I do want to comment on the bass of the Phil 3's. I recently experienced them in Dennis's living room. I have to agree with everyone here that the mid and hi frequency ranges are very special from the Phil 3. Open and spacious, with lots of detail and texture but absolutely the opposite of harsh. I haven't heard anything quite like them.

More to the point though is the bass which is the current question. I found their bass to be exceptional. I know Dennis specs them as having 20 hz extension and they certainly sounded like it based on the music we listened to. The level of the bass was spot on and the character of it to me could best be described as accurate. It was just there as it should be--to the level the music demanded. It didn't draw attention to itself it just enveloped me. It was not boomy. To me it was the furthest thing from "waffling", whatever that is. It does have a different character than ported cabinets seem to in my experience. It was the first TL cabinet I have listened to and I was very impressed wiht the deep well damped accurate deep bass. Using a top of the line SS woofer doesn't hurt either. I will say we didn't listen at crazy loud levels (I didn't measure but would estimate not louder than 90db). Dennis can correct me on that if I am wrong. I will say Dennis's living room is probably 18 x 16 (just guessing) and open to another room on one side and open to the stairs going down just behind the listening position. I certainly didn't hear any cabinet resonances. I would be SHOCKED TO DEATH if the OP is hearing a cabinet defect causing the bass problem he hears in his Phil 3's (short of their being some actual physical camage inside the cabinet due to shipping etc). The TL folds inside the cabinet should brace it very well and divide it up into panels small enough not to be ANY real issue as far as bass resonances that you could hear. I am not a prolific DIY builder but have built a fair number of speakers from both MDF and baltic birch ply, the latter for prosound subs, and I can't even imagine a cabinet resonance causing the bass to "waffle". I mean with a very cheap cabinet you can clearly hear cabinet resonances, but the cabinets of the Phil 3 are NOT even close to being in that category.

My money is squarely on room effects causing the bass problems. I understand the room is treated extensively with various acoustic treatments but my guess is some interaction of your acoustic treatments with the placement of the Phil 3's (and possibly witht the exit of the transmission line terminus) is causing your bass problems. I will also mention that your statements about the Phil 3's not being able to fill your main room with HF energy well enough is probably attributable to your eroom that sounds very dead in the HF as well. Since Dennis voiced the Phil 3 to use the rear radiation of the mids and tweets to reflect from room boundaries and contribute to a more spacious image it seem very possible that your very damped room is thwarting that aspct of the Phil 3 design. I will add that Dennis's room doesn't have any specific acoustic treatment that I could see. There are drapes on the wall behind the speakers. Otherwise it is hardwood floors and painted walls and a couch.

Again, Dennis can comment further as I may be totally off bass (pun intended) here on some things I have said about his design.

Loren Jones
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post #94 of 133 Old 05-02-2013, 07:38 PM
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One thing for sure would help is a measurement of the Phil3s in the OPs room.
That should be fairly simple.
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post #95 of 133 Old 05-02-2013, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

I've worked with a number of AMT's, including the original big Heil. They vary widely in quality, and have to be implemented carefully, since they rarely have an inherently smooth response. Below, for example, is how the original Heil measures with no crossover. I managed to get good results with it, although vertical dispersion is limited.


The original Heil AMT was a dipole "open-air" speaker.



The newer applications use it quite differently. Some use it as a monopole, (Legacy & some of the Steinway-Lyngdorf models) or monopole plus waveguide, (Triad.) The response of the open-air driver will bear little resemblance to the same driver with the "backwave" eliminated, or with the dispersion focused by a waveguide/lens.

How did you make it work?

Craig

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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post #96 of 133 Old 05-02-2013, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by snotdoc View Post

Well I'm glad to see you are able to enjoy so many wonderful speakers. I'm surprised you don't have some TH221's to go with your SH50's. Or maybe a DTS10.

Well I do want to comment on the bass of the Phil 3's. I recently experienced them in Dennis's living room. I have to agree with everyone here that the mid and hi frequency ranges are very special from the Phil 3. Open and spacious, with lots of detail and texture but absolutely the opposite of harsh. I haven't heard anything quite like them.

More to the point though is the bass which is the current question. I found their bass to be exceptional. I know Dennis specs them as having 20 hz extension and they certainly sounded like it based on the music we listened to. The level of the bass was spot on and the character of it to me could best be described as accurate. It was just there as it should be--to the level the music demanded. It didn't draw attention to itself it just enveloped me. It was not boomy. To me it was the furthest thing from "waffling", whatever that is. It does have a different character than ported cabinets seem to in my experience. It was the first TL cabinet I have listened to and I was very impressed wiht the deep well damped accurate deep bass. Using a top of the line SS woofer doesn't hurt either. I will say we didn't listen at crazy loud levels (I didn't measure but would estimate not louder than 90db). Dennis can correct me on that if I am wrong. I will say Dennis's living room is probably 18 x 16 (just guessing) and open to another room on one side and open to the stairs going down just behind the listening position. I certainly didn't hear any cabinet resonances. I would be SHOCKED TO DEATH if the OP is hearing a cabinet defect causing the bass problem he hears in his Phil 3's (short of their being some actual physical camage inside the cabinet due to shipping etc). The TL folds inside the cabinet should brace it very well and divide it up into panels small enough not to be ANY real issue as far as bass resonances that you could hear. I am not a prolific DIY builder but have built a fair number of speakers from both MDF and baltic birch ply, the latter for prosound subs, and I can't even imagine a cabinet resonance causing the bass to "waffle". I mean with a very cheap cabinet you can clearly hear cabinet resonances, but the cabinets of the Phil 3 are NOT even close to being in that category.

My money is squarely on room effects causing the bass problems. I understand the room is treated extensively with various acoustic treatments but my guess is some interaction of your acoustic treatments with the placement of the Phil 3's (and possibly witht the exit of the transmission line terminus) is causing your bass problems. I will also mention that your statements about the Phil 3's not being able to fill your main room with HF energy well enough is probably attributable to your eroom that sounds very dead in the HF as well. Since Dennis voiced the Phil 3 to use the rear radiation of the mids and tweets to reflect from room boundaries and contribute to a more spacious image it seem very possible that your very damped room is thwarting that aspct of the Phil 3 design. I will add that Dennis's room doesn't have any specific acoustic treatment that I could see. There are drapes on the wall behind the speakers. Otherwise it is hardwood floors and painted walls and a couch.

Again, Dennis can comment further as I may be totally off bass (pun intended) here on some things I have said about his design.

Loren Jones

I think Loren knows a few things about bass, given what he dropped off at my house last weekend. (See pic below). My room is actually a little larger than quoted, and the adjoining open space creates an effective width of about 36', and a depth varying from 20 feet to 38 feet. The hardwood floors are quite resonant and amplify bass. It's probably a better acoustic environment than most rooms despite its lack of sound treatment, so I wouldn't expect the Phil's to sound as good in some other environments. But it's hard to see why the bass would sound sloppier in a room as large as the OP's. I'm really stumped on this one. I didn't get into this, uh, business to tick customers off, so I really would like to figure out a way to help. Just to eliminate the possibility, a good look at the crossover board to check for any damaged connections might be in order. It's easily accessible by removing the plate at the bottom of the bass cabinet.
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post #97 of 133 Old 05-02-2013, 08:11 PM
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Good lord, what is that thing? I want one!
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post #98 of 133 Old 05-02-2013, 08:31 PM
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Good lord, what is that thing? I want one!

That's the new PhilharMonster, a joint venture of Philharmonic Audio and SnotDoc. Shipping to interested parties can be arranged, but it would be more practical if you simply moved to Bethesda MD.
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post #99 of 133 Old 05-02-2013, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

That's the new PhilharMonster, a joint venture of Philharmonic Audio and SnotDoc. Shipping to interested parties can be arranged, but it would be more practical if you simply moved to Bethesda MD.

If you want to see a little more about it you can look here

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1348949/philharmonic-audio-dennis-murphy/4080

or here

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?236783-Active-3-way-pro-sound-drivers

I haven't had the chance to hear them yet but Dennis assures me they sound overall fairly similar to his other full range designs (with obvious differences given the different type of drivers and implementation i.e. no open back mids and hi's on this one).

Loren Jones
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post #100 of 133 Old 05-02-2013, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

The original Heil AMT was a dipole "open-air" speaker.



The newer applications use it quite differently. Some use it as a monopole, (Legacy & some of the Steinway-Lyngdorf models) or monopole plus waveguide, (Triad.) The response of the open-air driver will bear little resemblance to the same driver with the "backwave" eliminated, or with the dispersion focused by a waveguide/lens.

How did you make it work?

Craig

How did I make it work? With a lot of effort and crossover parts. See final equalized plot with crossover in place. It's still not exactly pancake-flat, but it's good enough. That's an interesting comment about newer applications. Frankly, I thought the dipole operation was one of its most interesting and desirable
features. Absent that, I would rather go with the OEM RAAL, which can be crossed almost as low and is much smoother. I'm not sure a monopole application would change the response as captured by a typical quasi-anechoic impulse system such as Praxis or Omnimic. The short measuring window won't catch the rear wave radiation--just the front. Maybe the different loading would affect response--I just don't know the answer to that. I have worked with two smaller AMT's that were monopoles, and their response was very ragged. But I'm sure there are good versions out there.
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post #101 of 133 Old 05-02-2013, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

The original Heil AMT was a dipole "open-air" speaker.



The newer applications use it quite differently. Some use it as a monopole, (Legacy & some of the Steinway-Lyngdorf models) or monopole plus waveguide, (Triad.) The response of the open-air driver will bear little resemblance to the same driver with the "backwave" eliminated, or with the dispersion focused by a waveguide/lens.

How did you make it work?

Craig

Or the newest application uses it loaded on an 80x30 horn as seen in the picture Dennis just posted. The Beyma unit in the pic from Dennis is much smoother than the graph he posted of the old AMT though.

Loren Jones
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post #102 of 133 Old 05-02-2013, 08:52 PM
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Or the newest application uses it loaded on an 80x30 horn as seen in the picture Dennis just posted. The Beyma unit in the pic from Dennis is much smoother than the graph he posted of the old AMT though.

Loren Jones

That's an AMT? It looks like a planar. I had no idea I was working with that technology.
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post #103 of 133 Old 05-02-2013, 09:01 PM
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Yup, It's an AMT from Beyma. They sell it with or without the horn.

http://profesional.beyma.com/ingles/xls.php?xls=03_PLEATEDDIAPHRAGMTWEETER

Here are the links to the PDF's for the horn loaded and non-horn models.

Loren
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post #104 of 133 Old 05-02-2013, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

That's an AMT? It looks like a planar. I had no idea I was working with that technology.

Well--AMT it is. I checked out the website. It does measure much flatter than the Heil--a peak at 18 kHz is the only real departure from linearity, and that seems to flatten out at very high drive levels. And it's wildly sensitive--I practically had to short it out to get it's output in line with the much less
sensitive woofer (which is actually quite sensitive in its own right) The only downside, bedsides cost, is its narrow vertical dispersion. This is a something you want to listen to sitting down.
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post #105 of 133 Old 05-02-2013, 09:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Dennis,

The New speakers look great. How much are they going for?

Home Theatre: Onkyo PR SC 5509, ATI 3007 Danley SH50, Danley SH69, Danley SH100 (Rear), Seaton Subwoofer X 2, Custom Made Acoustic Panels and Bass Traps.

2 Channel System: Philharmonics 3, GD Audio Master 2 Mono Blocks, GD Audio Master 1 Pre-Amp. Wireworld Eclipse Gold 5 Silver XLR, Clear Day...
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post #106 of 133 Old 05-02-2013, 09:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Dennis on Sunday this week, I will recheck the speakers and the crossover section and report back to you by email i used for communication at the time or buying.

Im probably still going to buy another pair. And Keep the phills in my bedroom instead.

At the moment the legacy audio seems to interest me, its large, its using a DSP Room correction and active crossover and it does have the AMT Drivers. Considering i already have one horn in the room. The AMT should provide very smooth upper frequency. I am a sucker for large speakers i like the music played in ease with no forms of compression at high volumes.



Not sure who mentioned it but i did not say anything bad about Seaton, Actually i love the subwoofers and would not part and have seriously considering to buy another 2 pair so there is a total of 4 in the room. The problem is the current 2 subs seems to pressurize the room very well with no hint of distortion or stress.

Home Theatre: Onkyo PR SC 5509, ATI 3007 Danley SH50, Danley SH69, Danley SH100 (Rear), Seaton Subwoofer X 2, Custom Made Acoustic Panels and Bass Traps.

2 Channel System: Philharmonics 3, GD Audio Master 2 Mono Blocks, GD Audio Master 1 Pre-Amp. Wireworld Eclipse Gold 5 Silver XLR, Clear Day...
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post #107 of 133 Old 05-02-2013, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Bassfeen View Post

Dennis,

The New speakers look great. How much are they going for?

That new speaker, the "Philharmonster", isn't a Dennis design; while he's working on the crossover I suppose, it's a design from Loren Jones (the Ear, Nose and Throat Dr.).
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post #108 of 133 Old 05-02-2013, 10:00 PM
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Interesting

The manner in which one approaches lateral reflections is often one of preference and taste, however the requirements for the time domain/decay characteristics are somewhat clear cut. Are you aware that a room's damping needs in the LF, are opposite what's needed in the MF/HF?

In other words, yes .. totally dead in the bass octaves is ideal, but as one ascends the range of freqs, the needs slowly change toward being more lively. This contradiction in requirements is somewhat counter-intuitive to many, but quite achievable.

I'd solicit the expertise of someone like Mark Seaton, or Nyal, at Acoustic Frontiers, and examine the room ... and then approach the speaker purchase/room strategy as a combined exercise.

I've heard many many hi-fi, audiophile speakers during my work analyzing people's room acoustics and designing their acoustic treatment schemes: YG, Aerial, Wilson, Avalon, Zu, etc etc. Honestly the only ones that blew me away were the MBL Xtremes (250k) and the Lotus Audio Granada's (100k), neither of which are box speakers. The Steinway Lyngdorfs were pretty fab also, again 10x the 20k budget...

The Linkwitz Orion is good but not world class. The midrange is exceptional but the bass and treble fall behind other speakers out there. I should know as I have a pair in the garage sitting unused.

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post #109 of 133 Old 05-02-2013, 10:13 PM
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I've heard many many hi-fi, audiophile speakers during my work analyzing people's room acoustics and designing their acoustic treatment schemes: YG, Aerial, Wilson, Avalon, Zu, etc etc. Honestly the only ones that blew me away were the MBL Xtremes (250k) and the Lotus Audio Granada's (100k), neither of which are box speakers. The Steinway Lyngdorfs were pretty fab also, again 10x the 20k budget...

The Linkwitz Orion is good but not world class. The midrange is exceptional but the bass and treble fall behind other speakers out there. I should know as I have a pair in the garage sitting unused.
Zu? I'm not sure they are in the same class.
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post #110 of 133 Old 05-02-2013, 10:18 PM
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Zu Definitions. Nice speakers actually even if they don't have the bling factor.

Master of Minions, Acoustic Frontiers. We specialize in the design and creation of high performance listening rooms, home theaters and project studios for discerning audio/video enthusiasts.
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post #111 of 133 Old 05-03-2013, 04:27 AM
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Zu Definitions. Nice speakers actually even if they don't have the bling factor.

The last time I saw a Zu speaker measurement on Stereophile, it was +/-10dB on-axis w/ the off-axis from hell. eek.gif
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

Zu Definitions. Nice speakers actually even if they don't have the bling factor.

The last time I saw a Zu speaker measurement on Stereophile, it was +/-10dB on-axis w/ the off-axis from hell. eek.gif

The measurements on Soundstage for the Druids also have that "we don't believe in microphones" look:

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/zucable_druid/



eeek!
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post #113 of 133 Old 05-03-2013, 05:04 AM
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The Linkwitz Orion is good but not world class. The midrange is exceptional but the bass and treble fall behind other speakers out there. I should know as I have a pair in the garage sitting unused.

Was it built by Linkwitz or did you DIY?

I think the Orion was made for accurate refined classical, jazz, light-rock, popo, and "moderate" music, not the heavy of bass or electric high metals. biggrin.gif

Its limitation is the sound dynamics.

Definitely not for loud music and filling halls. biggrin.gif
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post #114 of 133 Old 05-03-2013, 05:36 AM
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Dennis on Sunday this week, I will recheck the speakers and the crossover section and report back to you by email i used for communication at the time or buying.

Im probably still going to buy another pair. And Keep the phills in my bedroom instead.

At the moment the legacy audio seems to interest me, its large, its using a DSP Room correction and active crossover and it does have the AMT Drivers. Considering i already have one horn in the room. The AMT should provide very smooth upper frequenI am a sucker for large speakers i like the music played in ease with no forms of compression at high volumes.mes.



Not sure who mentioned it but i did not say anything bad about Seaton, Actually i love the subwoofers and would not part and have seriously considering to buy another 2 pair so there is a total of 4 in the room. The problem is the current 2 subs seems to pressurize the room very well with no hint of distortion or stress.

I too am a sucker for big speakers for exactly the same reason. I like to listen louder than most and I want the system to sound effortless. If I want to listen at 100dbA average for a couple songs (with peaks 10 db above that) then I want the system to be able to do it with no hint of strain or compression that is sounds SO bad. If a system can play those levels effortlessly and cleanly it actually won't sound nearly as loud. PLEASE note that as an Ear Nose and Throat doctor I am aware that loud levels for extended time will damage one's hearing. I would never listen at levels like that for more than a brief session. And certainly it is true that levels of 100 dbA for short durations should be quite unlikely to cause any injury to one's cochlea.

I am sure you get that effortless high output sound from your SH50's and Seaton subs. One other thing you may want to look at in that general vein is Fulcrum Acoustics. Here is a link to their Prophile line of speakers. http://www.fulcrum-acoustic.com/products/prophileseries Dave Gunness (and his team) are genius on the Tom Danley level. Dave was responsible for implimenting IIR filtering solutions on EAW pro loudspeakers that most engineers considered to be a jaw dropping improvement on already great products (for their market). My understanding of their designs is that they have internal passive crossovers but are designed to be used with IIR capable DSP platforms to provide not just simple magnitude or phase problems. His approach is extremely brilliant (even to a non-engineer like me). Here is a link describing the concept behind his DSP implementation http://www.fulcrum-acoustic.com/technologies/tqstatement

Enjoy all your great sound toys. Glad to hear you are planning to keep the Phils and get something else for your main room that will match better with that room.

Loren Jones
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post #115 of 133 Old 05-03-2013, 07:23 AM
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That new speaker, the "Philharmonster", isn't a Dennis design; while he's working on the crossover I suppose, it's a design from Loren Jones (the Ear, Nose and Throat Dr.).
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PLEASE note that as an Ear Nose and Throat doctor I am aware that loud levels for extended time will damage one's hearing.

Loren Jones

Called it.

Now back on thread. Has Zu dared to let their speakers be measured after their Druid/Soundstage disaster?
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post #116 of 133 Old 05-03-2013, 08:48 AM
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Was it built by Linkwitz or did you DIY?

I think the Orion was made for accurate refined classical, jazz, light-rock, popo, and "moderate" music, not the heavy of bass or electric high metals. biggrin.gif

Its limitation is the sound dynamics.

Definitely not for loud music and filling halls. biggrin.gif

My pair is DIY'd but I've heard two other pairs and they have the same sonic signature. I ended up using mine with a sub under 50Hz as I kept on bottom out the woofers. It's a very nice speaker (I lived with it for 5/6 years) but there is better out there especially in the low bass <100Hz and the treble. The midrange is killer though.

Master of Minions, Acoustic Frontiers. We specialize in the design and creation of high performance listening rooms, home theaters and project studios for discerning audio/video enthusiasts.
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post #117 of 133 Old 05-03-2013, 08:51 AM
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The measurements on Soundstage for the Druids also have that "we don't believe in microphones" look:

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/zucable_druid/



eeek!

I'm not defending Zu but I've only spent time with the Definition which is their top of the line speaker, not the Druid.

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post #118 of 133 Old 05-03-2013, 09:05 AM
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I'm not defending Zu but I've only spent time with the Definition which is their top of the line speaker, not the Druid.

I thought the Zu Dominance is their top of the line speaker. It's $64,000/pair vs $16,000/pair for the Definition.
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post #119 of 133 Old 05-03-2013, 09:07 AM
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I thought the Zu Dominance is their top of the line speaker. It's $64,000/pair vs $16,000/pair for the Definition.

Quite right - just checked their website now. The Def was their top model for a good few years I think?

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post #120 of 133 Old 05-03-2013, 10:58 AM
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These Walsh driver speakers are an improvement upon the original OHMs which I heard years ago. The full range models have no crossover, and produce a coherent soundfield that is transparent, "floating" in the room.

I heard the OHM Fs years ago, and I still remember how I marvelled at the sound.

http://hhr-exoticspeakers.com/HHRproducts.htm
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