$7500 budget for front LCR - Recommendation Please - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 98 Old 05-06-2013, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
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I have in mind purchasing B&W 805D and HTM4. The use is 50% movies and 50% music.

I am interested in bookshelf / monitors. I have a Rel sub and could purchase another if 2 would be better. A couple of questions:

1. With up to $7500 to spend (and I feel no obligation to spend it all) what are my other speaker options for LCR?

2. If I were to buy another sub, does it matter if the subs are of different size or manufacturer?

My room configuration is 15 wide x 18 long x 8 tall. I have an Onkyo TX-SR 805 receiver and B&W in-ceiling speakers surround speakers.

Thanks

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post #2 of 98 Old 05-06-2013, 09:00 PM
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With a budget like that there's a lot of great options. Do you want big brand names only or are you open to some really high end Internet direct brands?

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post #3 of 98 Old 05-06-2013, 10:05 PM
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I would use some of that money for a newer receiver.....with room correction software becoming more advanced and making your music/movies actually sound like how they intended to, I think its a bigger factor than it was a few years ago.

Speakers really dont change alot but the receiver can now "fix" any room anomalies better than ever.

To your original question, the B&W's sound like fantastic speakers.
And yes, another sub would be a great addition.....of course not for pure output but a smoother response.
As far as keeping both subs the same, IMO, I would. Setting up 2 subs with the same frequency response I would think make life a lot easier.
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post #4 of 98 Old 05-06-2013, 10:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

With a budget like that there's a lot of great options. Do you want big brand names only or are you open to some really high end Internet direct brands?

Both. However, I will likely want to hear the speakers before I buy them. I live in Los Angeles and welcome any suggestions on where I can hear any speaker suggestions you may have. Triad is definately on my list, but is a good example of a company that makes great speakers ( as reviewed and discussed on this forum) but are hard to demo.
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post #5 of 98 Old 05-06-2013, 10:09 PM
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There are A LOT of options from most brands, including Revel, KEF, Focal, Dynaudio, and too many others to list.

But if you love the sound of the 805D2, then just go with what sounds best to you.

There's a lot of factors to consider. Like aesthetic, brand matching (current B&W surround), etc.

One speaker I've recently been infatuated with is the Klipsch KL650-THX-Ultra2. Sure, the THX Ultra2 certification means that it has good on-axis FR and smooth off-axis FR and great dynamic THX Reference output capability. But this speaker seems quite unique to me in that two independent sources have both confirmed the listening window FR to be +/-1.0dB, which is EXTREMELY RARELY ACCURATE.

It retails $1500 each, but a good honest authorized dealer could help you and sell for under $1K each.

The KEY is actually liking what YOU HEAR, not what others hear! biggrin.gif

So audition before you buy. wink.gif
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post #6 of 98 Old 05-06-2013, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

There are A LOT of options from most brands, including Revel, KEF, Focal, Dynaudio, and too many others to list.

But if you love the sound of the 805D2, then just go with what sounds best to you.

There's a lot of factors to consider. Like aesthetic, brand matching (current B&W surround), etc.

One speaker I've recently been infatuated with is the Klipsch KL650-THX-Ultra2. Sure, the THX Ultra2 certification means that it has good on-axis FR and smooth off-axis FR and great dynamic THX Reference output capability. But this speaker seems quite unique to me in that two independent sources have both confirmed the listening window FR to be +/-1.0dB, which is EXTREMELY RARELY ACCURATE.

It retails $1500 each, but a good honest authorized dealer could help you and sell for under $1K each.

The KEY is actually liking what YOU HEAR, not what others hear! biggrin.gif

So audition before you buy. wink.gif

While the Klipsch KL650-THX are great speakers they're probably a lot better options for some using the speakers for 50/50 music/ht.

AcuDefTechGuy have you finally had a chance to listen to a Klipsch Ultra2 setup yet?

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post #7 of 98 Old 05-06-2013, 10:45 PM
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To the OP, if you have had a chance to read threw this GTG thread yet http://www.avsforum.com/t/1460712/central-iowa-spring-audio-gtg-jtr-bamberg-seaton-salk-gr-research
It's worth a good read. Bamberg, Salk and JTR all have great speakers that would fall within your budget.

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post #8 of 98 Old 05-07-2013, 05:09 AM
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Those Klipsch KL-650THX speaker are at the bottom of the stack for music, and that s putting it nicely! If I had $7,500 dollars to spend on a theater setup, I would go with either a pair of Salk HT2-TL's with a SoundScape Center, and then use the SongSurround-1's for rears, or go with the Salk Songtower Ribbons with the HTC-center, and SongSurround-1's. That would leave enough money left over for a Denon AVR-4311 and a good sub. If you have the necessary tools, I would consider building a quad set, or a pair of DIY Dayton HO18's. That would absolutely stomp the living hell out of the B&W's!
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post #9 of 98 Old 05-07-2013, 05:12 AM
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Why would he get a Soundscape center with HT2-TL's? Those do not match at all. There is a Veracity center and Jim will build any center to match the mains.
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post #10 of 98 Old 05-07-2013, 06:39 AM
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Even though most of us are recommending tower speakers, I see that you want bookshelf speakers.

I have become a fan of the Internet Direct model recently. I think that you can get the most for your money. However, especially at the high end where the sonic differences may be small and the costs are still high. It is still important that you get a chance to listen to the speakers before buying.

The being said, I would recommend trying to get a chance to listen to Jim Salk's new Silk Monitor. They are about $3500/pair. I am not sure what he would recommend for a center, but the supercharged Song center is about $1500.

I would consider Salk speakers for three reasons.
1. They are carefully designed from the raw drivers, cabinet, and cross-over circuitry
2. Jim Salk will give you amazingly personal service and honest service as you choose your system
3. You can customize the veneer finishes to some amazingly beautiful speakers

His web site is www.salksound.com

If you like what you see, give Jim a call and I am sure he will do his best to get you an audition with these speakers.

edit: ok, I couldn't resist recommending a tower. Jim's supercharged songtower has a very small footprint that should work great in your size of room. It is the same cost as the 'Silk'.
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post #11 of 98 Old 05-07-2013, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Those Klipsch KL-650THX speaker are at the bottom of the stack for music, and that's putting it nicely! If I had $7,500 dollars to spend on a theater setup, I would go with either a pair of Salk HT2-TL's with a SoundScape Center, and then use the SongSurround-1's for rears, or go with the Salk Songtower Ribbons with the HTC-center, and SongSurround-1's.

Okay, let's just pretend for a moment that we're in a courtroom drama and I'm the lawyer defending the poor Klipsch. biggrin.gif

So here goes....

According to the DBT research done by Harman (Floyd Toole, Sean Olive, et al) speakers with accurate flat on-axis and smooth off-axis response are preferred for music and movies. This is the basis for all Harman speaker design. The reason why the Salon2 & JBL Everest sound so awesome. They have ultra accurate on-axis and smooth off-axis.

Audioholics Pro review love the KL650-THX's sound for both movies and music. I doubt the staff @ Audioholics are any less credible than anyone here or anywhere else. The same Audioholics staff also rave about Salk speakers you love so much, for example.

Yes, the guys who love the sound of those Salk speakers that you love so much are the very same guys who LOVE the sound of those KL650-THX that you are bashing. biggrin.gif

So why would an Ultra Accurate +/-1.0dB & Smooth off-axis speaker like the KL650-THX be at the bottom of the stack for music?

Because they use horns? Because they are Klipsch? Because they are labeled as "THX" and are promoted for THX movies?

How many people have actually listened specifically to this KL650-THX in a home environment ?

How many people have just listened to some Klipsch at some shop or store (instead of a home environment) and prejudice and stereotype all Klipsch speakers based on their limited experience?

The important thing here is that people should have the chance to audition the KL650-THX as well as all other speakers without forum members attempting to predispose their decisions.

The FACTUAL OBJECTIVE DATA are there for the KL650-THX, unlike many speakers without any kind of factual objective data and unlike many speakers with utterly nothing more than forum hearsay and subjective bias support with no more credibility than the good staff at Audioholics.

So the next step is the chance to audition. Audition away I say.

Bottom line, the buyer should buy what sounds best to him, not what others are biased toward.
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I will likely want to hear the speakers before I buy them.
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post #12 of 98 Old 05-07-2013, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

While the Klipsch KL650-THX are great speakers they're probably a lot better options for some using the speakers for 50/50 music/ht.

AcuDefTechGuy have you finally had a chance to listen to a Klipsch Ultra2 setup yet?

This thread is about a forum member in the early stage of speaker purchase. It's not about your bias or my bias.

Bottom line is, he should audition as many speakers as possible and not be predisposed to any one speaker based on bias.

You or other people may subjectively think the Klipsch sound like screaming cats (had to use that phrase biggrin.gif).

Others may think JTR speakers sound like screaming cats.

Others may think Salk speakers sound like screaming cats. Etc, etc.

The FACTS are there. Both HTM & AH measured the KL-650-THX and both got a FR of +/-1dB.

Now if the OP has the opportunity, he may feel like listening for HIMSELF and be his OWN judge.

It's not about my bias, your bias, HTM bias, Audioholics bias, or any other biases.

The OP is simply looking for open suggestions and possibilities, not closed-ended biased predisposition.
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I will likely want to hear the speakers before I buy them.
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post #13 of 98 Old 05-07-2013, 08:46 AM
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If I already had subjectively great sounding B&W ceiling speakers, and I thought the 805D2 sounded fantastic, I would buy the 805D2 x 3.

But I would NOT pay full MSRP!

I think a reasonable dealer should give a 10% discount. wink.gif
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post #14 of 98 Old 05-07-2013, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Okay, let's just pretend for a moment that we're in a courtroom drama and I'm the lawyer defending the poor Klipsch. biggrin.gif

So here goes....

According to the DBT research done by Harman (Floyd Toole, Sean Olive, et al) speakers with accurate flat on-axis and smooth off-axis response are preferred for music and movies. This is the basis for all Harman speaker design. The reason why the Salon2 & JBL Everest sound so awesome. They have ultra accurate on-axis and smooth off-axis.

Audioholics Pro review love the KL650-THX's sound for both movies and music. I doubt the staff @ Audioholics are any less credible than anyone here or anywhere else. The same Audioholics staff also rave about Salk speakers you love so much, for example.

Yes, the guys who love the sound of those Salk speakers that you love so much are the very same guys who LOVE the sound of those KL650-THX that you are bashing. biggrin.gif

So why would an Ultra Accurate +/-1.0dB & Smooth off-axis speaker like the KL650-THX be at the bottom of the stack for music?

Because they use horns? Because they are Klipsch? Because they are labeled as "THX" and are promoted for THX movies?

How many people have actually listened specifically to this KL650-THX in a home environment ?

How many people have just listened to some Klipsch at some shop or store (instead of a home environment) and prejudice and stereotype all Klipsch speakers based on their limited experience?

The important thing here is that people should have the chance to audition the KL650-THX as well as all other speakers without forum members attempting to predispose their decisions.

The FACTUAL OBJECTIVE DATA are there for the KL650-THX, unlike many speakers without any kind of factual objective data and unlike many speakers with utterly nothing more than forum hearsay and subjective bias support with no more credibility than the good staff at Audioholics.

So the next step is the chance to audition. Audition away I say.

Bottom line, the buyer should buy what sounds best to him, not what others are biased toward.

I would be a little leery of Audioholics reviews of any speaker that they just happen to sell in their store.

In the case of this particular speaker, I enjoyed it for home theater and would recommend keeping it on the demo list. I am not sure for music, and I am also not sure if anything has changed with the speaker since Audiovox bought out Klipsch (i.e. cost cutting).
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post #15 of 98 Old 05-07-2013, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

This thread is about a forum member in the early stage of speaker purchase. It's not about your bias or my bias.

Bottom line is, he should audition as many speakers as possible and not be predisposed to any one speaker based on bias.

You or other people may subjectively think the Klipsch sound like screaming cats (had to use that phrase biggrin.gif).

Others may think JTR speakers sound like screaming cats.

Others may think Salk speakers sound like screaming cats. Etc, etc.

The FACTS are there. Both HTM & AH measured the KL-650-THX and both got a FR of +/-1dB.

Now if the OP has the opportunity, he may feel like listening for HIMSELF and be his OWN judge.

It's not about my bias, your bias, HTM bias, Audioholics bias, or any other biases.

The OP is simply looking for open suggestions and possibilities, not closed-ended biased predisposition.

LOL.... hear we go again, someone mentions JTR and you go off about someone saying they sound like a screaming cat. You really need to get off the JTR hate wagon. For the recorded so the OP doesn't get the wrong idea. Someone said the JTR Triple 8's sounded like screaming cats. But keep in mind that the Noesis 212HT's that a lot of people love on these forums will tell you that triple 8's sound NOTHING like Noesis 212HT's.

You didn't answer my question AcuDefTechGuy, have you been able to hear the Klipsch KL-650-THX yet?
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post #16 of 98 Old 05-07-2013, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

I would be a little leery of Audioholics reviews of any speaker that they just happen to sell in their store.

In the case of this particular speaker, I enjoyed it for home theater and would recommend keeping it on the demo list. I am not sure for music, and I am also not sure if anything has changed with the speaker since Audiovox bought out Klipsch (i.e. cost cutting).


Same speaker as before.

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post #17 of 98 Old 05-07-2013, 09:39 AM
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[/B]

Same speaker as before.

That is good to know. Some of the latest reviews I have seen on the reference lineup indicate that Klipsch is starting to get very generous with their specs.

For the OP, I am pretty sure Mktheater has compared these speakers to others, you may want to lookup his thread.
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post #18 of 98 Old 05-07-2013, 10:01 AM
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That is good to know. Some of the latest reviews I have seen on the reference lineup indicate that Klipsch is starting to get very generous with their specs.

For the OP, I am pretty sure Mktheater has compared these speakers to others, you may want to lookup his thread.

Yes, I believe he basically said they were great for movies but sucked for music.

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post #19 of 98 Old 05-07-2013, 10:40 AM
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I liked the Klipsch Ultra2 system but I only heard it with movies and when I was considering it, it was for a strictly movie setup so I never bothered to try to listen to any music with them.

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post #20 of 98 Old 05-07-2013, 10:58 AM
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LOL.... hear we go again, someone mentions JTR and you go off about someone saying they sound like a screaming cat. You really need to get off the JTR hate wagon. For the recorded so the OP doesn't get the wrong idea. Someone said the JTR Triple 8's sounded like screaming cats. But keep in mind that the Noesis 212HT's that a lot of people love on these forums will tell you that triple 8's sound NOTHING like Noesis 212HT's.

You didn't answer my question AcuDefTechGuy, have you been able to hear the Klipsch KL-650-THX yet?

Oh, c'mon. I mentioned "Screaming cats" with all 3 speakers - Klipsch, Salk, & JTR. Did I not?

I'm just saying that anyone could love or hate any given speaker regardless of brand, and it doesn't mean anything but his own personal opinion.

What difference does it make whether I have listened to those Klipsch or not? The staff from Audioholics and Home Theater Magazine have listened and measured those KL650-THX, and their opinions count as much as ANYONE, do they not?

So it means nothing if I have or have not heard those Klipsch.

Does your opinion worth any more than HTM and Audioholics opinions just because you say you have heard the KL650? Not one bit more.

So let's not talk about me or my speakers. Let's stick to open-minded suggestions and let the OP decide for himself.
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post #21 of 98 Old 05-07-2013, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Oh, c'mon. I mentioned "Screaming cats" with all 3 speakers - Klipsch, Salk, & JTR. Did I not?

I'm just saying that anyone could love or hate any given speaker regardless of brand, and it doesn't mean anything but his own personal opinion.

What difference does it make whether I have listened to those Klipsch or not? The staff from Audioholics and Home Theater Magazine have listened and measured those KL650-THX, and their opinions count as much as ANYONE, do they not?

So it means nothing if I have or have not heard those Klipsch.

Does your opinion worth any more than HTM and Audioholics opinions just because you say you have heard the KL650? Not one bit more.

So let's not talk about me or my speakers. Let's stick to open-minded suggestions and let the OP decide for himself.

You have to stop taking everything so personal, I wasn't asking if you've listen to them to point out that you recommend them without hearing them. I was asking because I know you seem to like them so I was simply asking if you've had a chance to listen to them yet.

You have to admit its not really all that hard to believe you were insinuating the screaming cat comment towards the JTR's given your comments in the past about the Noesis speakers. Anyone who looks at some of your posts on JTR speakers could come to that conclusion too.

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post #22 of 98 Old 05-07-2013, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Some of the latest reviews I have seen on the reference lineup indicate that Klipsch is starting to get very generous with their specs.

A lot of manufacturers appear to be "generous" with their own spec if you look at spec vs 3rd party measurement.

That's why I look at 3rd party measurements. In the case of the KL650, 2 different 3rd parties are involved.
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post #23 of 98 Old 05-07-2013, 11:10 AM
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You have to stop taking everything so personal, I wasn't asking if you've listen to them to point out that you recommend them without hearing them. I was asking because I know you seem to like them so I was simply asking if you've had a chance to listen to them yet.

You have to admit its not really all that hard to believe you were insinuating the screaming cat comment towards the JTR's given your comments in the past about the Noesis speakers. Anyone who looks at some of your posts on JTR speakers could come to that conclusion too.

I've never heard anyone claiming Salk speakers sound like "screaming cats"... To even put those words in the same line, is just plain wrong. Most of Salk's line-up consist of the RAAL ribbon tweeter. Now, when you say the same about Klipsch, I might believe you.tongue.gif
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post #24 of 98 Old 05-07-2013, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

A lot of manufacturers appear to be "generous" with their own spec if you look at spec vs 3rd party measurement.

That's why I look at 3rd party measurements. In the case of the KL650, 2 different 3rd parties are involved.

This is true (as a Deftech owner I know this quite well). And third party measurements are very good to have, but ultimately it comes down to how they sound in your room. A speaker may measure really well in a good room, and horribly in a not so good room.

But I do agree that you have to start somewhere.
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post #25 of 98 Old 05-07-2013, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

This is true (as a Deftech owner I know this quite well). And third party measurements are very good to have, but ultimately it comes down to how they sound in your room. A speaker may measure really well in a good room, and horribly in a not so good room.

But I do agree that you have to start somewhere.

IOW, if a speaker measures horribly in a nice neutral anechoic environment, how can we expect that speaker to measure well in an average or not-so-good room?

Baseline measurement (anechoic/ pseudo-anechoic) is always good. We at least know the speaker's potential.
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post #26 of 98 Old 05-07-2013, 11:57 AM
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You have to stop taking everything so personal, I wasn't asking if you've listen to them to point out that you recommend them without hearing them. I was asking because I know you seem to like them so I was simply asking if you've had a chance to listen to them yet.

You have to admit its not really all that hard to believe you were insinuating the screaming cat comment towards the JTR's given your comments in the past about the Noesis speakers. Anyone who looks at some of your posts on JTR speakers could come to that conclusion too.

Personal? We're not even talking about any speaker I own! I don't own any Klipsch.

You own JTR. You are the one who is getting personal.

I mentioned 3 speakers, but you had to assume and conclude I meant your JTR and defended it.

I could have mentioned 10 speakers, and you probably still would assume and conclude I targeted the JTR. That's getting personal.

I don't own the Klipsch KL650 or any Klipsch. I'm just being objective here, not personal.

You need to stop getting personal and defensive about your JTR. It's very transparent.

Just stick to the topic here - possible speakers for the OP to audition. eek.gif

Heck, he probably already bought some 805D2 and we didn't even know.

And don't go saying, "There are better speakers than B&W for the price".
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post #27 of 98 Old 05-07-2013, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Cvetan1 View Post

I've never heard anyone claiming Salk speakers sound like "screaming cats"... To even put those words in the same line, is just plain wrong. Most of Salk's line-up consist of the RAAL ribbon tweeter. Now, when you say the same about Klipsch, I might believe you.tongue.gif

Neither have I, also another reason why it seems like the comment was directed towards the JTR Noesis speakers.

My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
Axiom Audio QS8 surrounds
Sherbourn PA 7-350
Pioneer VSX-21TXH
JVC RS45
Falcon Screens FVHD105
Dual PSA XS30's (gone but not forgotten)
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post #28 of 98 Old 05-07-2013, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Personal? We're not even talking about any speaker I own! I don't own any Klipsch.

You own JTR. You are the one who is getting personal.

I mentioned 3 speakers, but you had to assume and conclude I meant your JTR and defended it.

I could have mentioned 10 speakers, and you probably still would assume and conclude I targeted the JTR. That's getting personal.

I don't own the Klipsch KL650 or any Klipsch. I'm just being objective here, not personal.

You need to stop getting personal and defensive about your JTR. It's very transparent.

You're hilarious, anyone who looks into any of your posts in regards to JTR would see you don't like them or the fact you hate it when anyone recommends them.
The only thing transparent here is you on the JTR hate wagon. And now you're dancing around your comment about the JTR/screaming cat thing.

I like lots of different speakers and don't recommend just JTR's. I haven't been defensive at all, just pointing out to the OP and anyone else that looks at your post history on JTR's you don't like them.

Anyways back on topic.

My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
Axiom Audio QS8 surrounds
Sherbourn PA 7-350
Pioneer VSX-21TXH
JVC RS45
Falcon Screens FVHD105
Dual PSA XS30's (gone but not forgotten)
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post #29 of 98 Old 05-07-2013, 12:04 PM
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Neither have I, also another reason why it seems like the comment was directed towards the JTR Noesis speakers.

That's called getting personal and defensive.

I made a figure of speech. I could have mentioned 10 different speakers. Nothing more.
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post #30 of 98 Old 05-07-2013, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

That's called getting personal and defensive.

I made a figure of speech. I could have mentioned 10 different speakers. Nothing more.

I believe that's called stating the facts.

My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
Axiom Audio QS8 surrounds
Sherbourn PA 7-350
Pioneer VSX-21TXH
JVC RS45
Falcon Screens FVHD105
Dual PSA XS30's (gone but not forgotten)
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