Small Beer and wine Bar AUDIO VIDEO System - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 12 Old 05-07-2013, 09:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello,

This is my first time here and i have a lot of questions since i dont have any experience in these AUDIO VIDEO stuff and im on a very tight budget and want to save as much as possible.

Im opening a small 1300 sqft Beer and Wine bar and most of the time the music would be medium level but every now and then we will have a party or live entertainment and would need louder club like music.

I will have 2 TVS and want the option to have the Speaker system play TVs sound and if possible have 2 zones for example have zone one playing sound from the TVS from NBA game next to Bar area and zone 2 playing music from my PC or Laptop for people not watching it.

I did my own research and was wondering if something like this would work and if its stupid please direct me.

1- 70V Amplifier ,Subwoofer ,4 speakers PKG from (Atlas) (by the way i can add 2 more speakers exact model since they sell them seperatly too)



http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001NDG7X2/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A24JT33HRREUEL



2-Onkyo reciever







http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0077V88W2/ref=ox_sc_act_title_9?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER


3-There is two existing in ceiling speakers i will use one for the restroom or both there two

4-DB Link SW16G500Z 16-Gauge, 500 feet Speaker Wire (Blue)




http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000QU8M9K/ref=ox_sc_act_title_7?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER



5-Vizio 60 inch LED





http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009H8JOZS/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER


6- Vizio 42 inch LED





http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009IBXECS/ref=gno_cart_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER




7- i will get HDMI cables depending on the lengths ill need

8- cat 5 cables for credit card and telephone

9-Camera Surveillance System (Zmodo)





http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008MHDSPW/ref=ox_sc_act_title_8?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A2WY3HPTSK6KME




So guys please help me and tell me if you think these things would work together since i cant afford hiring a sound engineer company ,im on a very tight budget .

thank you very much and would really appreciate your help.
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post #2 of 12 Old 05-08-2013, 12:30 PM
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Good choice on the Vizio screens. Amazing quality for the price.

I do not have a lot of experience with professional speaker systems, but I have my doubts about you being able to recreate a "club atmosphere" when desired. I am reproducing a few of the key specs as found on B&H's website:

Speakers:
Frequency Response: 115 Hz - 16 kHz
Power: 30W RMS
Sensitivity: 88 dB
Impedance: 8 Ohms (Transformer Bypassed)
Low Frequency Driver: 4" (102mm) Polypropylene Woofer
High Frequency Driver: 1" (25mm) Ferrofluid-Cooled Dome Tweeter

Comments: The high-frequency roll-off I am not too worried about given your application, but the low-end response is worrying. Crossed over at 120Hz the subwoofer would be clearly localizable. At the given sensitivity with the available power you will not be able to achieve much SPL, so I think you can forget about club-like sound.

Subwoofer
Driver: 8" Woofer
Crossover: 120 Hz
Frequency Response: 55 - 100 Hz
Power: 100W
Maximum Sound Pressure Level (SPL): 107 dB

This single subwoofer would be seriously challenged when trying to make up for the speakers' lack of power. 55Hz as the low end of the FR is worrying even without knowing whether that is -3dB or -10dB. Music content will suffer.

Amp
Signal to Noise Ratio: >55 dB, Balanced, >75 dB, Unbalanced

Background chatter from a TV channel might be OK, but for music lovers this could be problematic.

Generally speaking, the smaller the speaker, the more difficulty you will have to achieve good sound, especially on the cheap. I am assuming you want something that can be ceiling/wall mounted? What would be the maximum size you would be willing to compromise with?

Have you considered renting equipment for special events? Orlando must have a lot of AV rental companies to chose from that would not set you back a lot for a night/weekend.

Squarefootage is good to know, but do you have pictures/drawings of the space and the different zones?
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post #3 of 12 Old 05-08-2013, 10:57 PM
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Look at these bookshelf speakers. They play very loud for speakers their price. Im not sure how well they will work in a very large environment though.

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/hb-1.html

Assuming 15 ft. ceilings you have about 20,000 cu.ft. of space. That is considered massive. To have any respectable bass you will need, or want speakers that have significant mid bass capabilities. Assuming a square room its roughly 37x37. If someone is in the center of the room roughly 16-18 feet away from the speakers the sound they will hear will be 24 db less than what the speaker is producing. A quick search shows me that a club is roughly 110db, I assume that 100 db would be fine however. Without massive amplifiers you would need speakers with roughly 102-104db sensitivity to reach 100 db at

What Im getting at is that club like volumes without massive speakers will be almost impossible. Also with that much space I would look at least at 2 Klipsch RW 12-D subwoofers.
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post #4 of 12 Old 05-09-2013, 11:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you zeghostbear ,hmmm I kinda get your point so do you think I need 2 subwoofers and bigger speakers ,and petden the store is 65 long and 21 wide , and I get both of your points of not getting a club like level but how about a medium level sound system what do you guys recommend ? And is it possible to get by using a 7.2 receiver getting 7 exact speakers and two sub woofers and have it on party mode or stereo max ? Or please suggest a system with a $2000 budget ,I can't rent stuff because it will be expensive for me
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post #5 of 12 Old 05-09-2013, 11:42 PM - Thread Starter
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And I'm talking about audio system only
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post #6 of 12 Old 05-10-2013, 12:55 AM
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With a $2,000 budget, for subs, get two of the Premier Acoustics PA-150s. They have massive midbass output, more than any other subwoofer in this price range. Normally, I believe that Acoustic Sound Design will take an offer of somewhere around $360 to $375 for each. Then seven Bic America FH-65B speakers which have a high sensitivity rating. What I would do is email Acoustic Sound Design directly and say you want the whole 7.2 set and offer them $1300 and see what they say.

Otherwise, most clubs use PA speakers and subs and separate amps. You might be better off going that route if you really want club like volume.

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post #7 of 12 Old 05-10-2013, 01:19 AM - Thread Starter
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What kind of a receiver would i use with what you suggested cel4145 , and would I be able to hook two tvs to it
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post #8 of 12 Old 05-10-2013, 09:03 AM
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I'm not sure what you mean by hook two TVs. Do you mean run sound out of one TV to some of the speakers, and sound from another to others? It might be better to think about a multiple amp/receiver solution.

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post #9 of 12 Old 05-10-2013, 12:11 PM
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A few things --

1) I'm not very versed in all the different 5.1/7.1 music configurations, but I highly doubt clubs use any of them. Generally, the algorithms used to turn stereo music into 5/7.1 are designed to encircle a small area with enveloping sound, not to allow you to use 5 or 7 speakers to get "more" sound. Which is to say, they are not designed to turn 2 speakers into 7 and get you to club-like levels, rather they are designed to put ambient sound into the surrounds creating an enveloping surround field around a "listening bubble" near the back third of a space. Like I said -- this isn't "club-like" sound where the goal is to hear approximately the same sound everywhere in the club.

2) Trying to create two-zones (one around one TV and then another around the second) and play different content on them and then re-purpose all those speakers for a club-like sound is probably going to result in a non-ideal environment for one or the other. For the zones you'll want the speakers mounted close to each TV, but for the club-like sound, you probably won't want them in those same places. Not to mention the fact that to the best of my knowledge most receivers are still only accepting analog for zone-2 video (as opposed to HDMI) and those that do accept HDMI for zone2 (or 3) typically only do so when you want to use the same source input as zone 1.

Having said all that...I think your goals and budget just aren't lining up. I'd focus on one or the other.

If the club-like stuff is more important, then I'd sink money into good subs and high-sensitivity PA speakers with some pro-audio amplifiers in a rack somewhere. Then, just use the TV speakers.

If the TV viewing is more important, then I'd go the two receiver route or look for receivers that actually allow two-zone HDMI switching (I think some of the new Yamaha's do it...?). Then spend just a tiny bit on book-shelf speakers or something to get a nice bubble around the TV powered up for the viewers. You obviously don't want the two TV areas competing and overpowering one another, so it's not like you need crazy powerful stuff here.... Not to mention that audio during a sporting event is mostly dialog and it is not as if you really need subwoofers and crazy speakers to reproduce it well. Then, later on, look into fleshing out the club sound with real equipment built for it. Further, since you mention that you may want music in one zone for people not wanting to watch the game, I'd make the music area zone 1 so if you wanted a small sub in that area to fill in the bottom end of the music a little you could. I don't think zone-2/3 is typically designed with a sub-woofer in mind, most receivers I've worked with only output 2 channel audio to these zones.

Just my opinion....
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post #10 of 12 Old 05-10-2013, 02:21 PM
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With regards to the BIC speakers the only reason I didnt list them is due to their sensitivity. I believe on this forum someone mentioned that their sensitivity is hugely overstated. Im not sure if its true or not, but it could be. Does anyone have any measurements of the sensitivity of this speaker, I would like to know.

With those dimensions I would use 6 speakers at least to start, then when you can afford it start replacing them with large PA speakers.
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post #11 of 12 Old 05-10-2013, 03:10 PM
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I would stick to a commercial system for background music to start with, as they will have dispersion patterns meant for restaurants and not homes.

Speakers
JBL Control 25T @ $152 ea. (x6, x8 or x10)
(This is the 70 Volt version)

Mixer & amp
Crown 280MA @ $604 x 1
Wiring diagram for 2 rooms.
There appears to be a TV module available which might make your life easier and hopefully eliminate the need for a receiver, but I have not found the model number or price.

Total cost of 8 speakers with the mixer/amp is already $1,820. JBL has the Control SB-2 available, but integration would just drive up the cost. You should be able cover the entire space with background music this way. The Atlas system you looked at might be good for one small area and you might need two or three packages in total. At this price point you are going to have to compromise somewhere.

I called up Full Compass for a quote. We'll see what they get back with. Do you have any thoughts or questions in the meantime?
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post #12 of 12 Old 05-10-2013, 08:51 PM
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Ok, got the quote back. The salesperson recommended switching out the Crown for a Yorkville cutting that portion in half while adding a ton of features that would make it more expandable in the future.

Yorkville CA1T

Not sure about the sound quality on either. Have only heard Crown amplifiers built into JBL's PA cabinets.

The quoted prices actually came in lower than what I grabbed from the website earlier. You might want to contact the dealer directly. I have no affiliation with them and have never bought anything from them, but let me know whether you want the contact details for the rep via PM.

Cheers.
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