Triads in my basement rec room project (Help, help, help....would love your advice!) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 60 Old 05-10-2013, 11:36 PM - Thread Starter
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I am currently building my basement rec room and one end is an open living room area which will be for movies/tv and music listening. I would like to setup a 5.1 surround system for use with the TV and also be able to listen to music regularly. I bought Triad speakers but need some advice about how best to set things up, and would appreciate any feedback!

Speakers:
- InWall Silver/4 MiniMonitor (5) 13 1/2 "x 9 1/4"
- InWall Bronze Sub (2) 20 1/4" x 15 1/2"

TV, Receiver, other electronics:
- TBD

Room:
- 16 1/2' wide
- 7'10" height
- Back of seating/couch 12', and 13 1/2' to back speakers to be in-ceiling
- Living room / theater area open to entire room 37', essentially a long rectangular shaped finished basement
- I also plan to insulate the walls and ceiling

I have the following questions if anyone can help me:
1. Can the InWall subs be mounted anywhere and facing any direction?
2. Are 2 subs needed/preferred and if so what is optimal placement with relation to each other (opposite corners front of room, back of room, put them next to each other, etc)?
3. Are the MiniMonitors large enough for left, center and right and by large enough I mean can they output enough for awesome experience for both movies and music listening?
4. Specifically for the center speaker is MiniMonitor ok...want to make sure appropriate for excellent voices and dialogue for movies and TV watching?
5. Would MiniMonitors mounted in ceiling very near the seating (very close to and above the seating, about 1-2 feet behind the seating, but would be projecting downward) work OK? (would like to use all 5 of the MiniMonitors I already have not have to get a different In-Ceiling type speaker for the rears).
6. Can all these speakers and subs be run from one receiver if so any recommendations? I have been using a Yamaha RX-V565 in my current setup which is 630W (90W x 7) ... I will get a new receiver for this rec room setup and Triads - any recommendations / preferences helpful.

THANK YOU IN ADVANCE!
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post #2 of 60 Old 05-11-2013, 06:26 AM
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1. No!  Subs need to be placed for the best response.  Too tough to tell without measurements.  Generally, one towards the front of the room and one towards the back of the room on the opposite side.  But that might not be possible in your room.

2. Two or more subs are preferred for a good bass response in the listening area.  Placement is too tough to state without measuring especially in an open room.  With that big of room I'd definitely be looking at some type of placement near the corners and not mid wall placement like you see in some articles.  You will need the added gain for a room that size.

3. Tough to say.  How loud do you want too play?  They are great speakers though.

4. It is fine.  You want identical speakers whenever possible.

5. I wouldn't use them in ceiling.  Ideally, on the side wall slightly behind the listening area and 2-3 feet above seating height.  Your room may have some limitations.

6. Yes, they can all be run through your receiver.  If you play loud I'd look for a better receiver or a processor with an amp.  Although rated at 90W it does not do that when 5 speakers are playing, probably more like half of that.  This is common with many receivers now, they skimp on good amps to give more features.

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post #3 of 60 Old 05-11-2013, 01:38 PM
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I would echo what BobL said. Do you have the option of using some smaller in-room subwoofers vs in-wall?
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post #4 of 60 Old 05-11-2013, 07:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Well I already have two in wall subs, so I want to use them. Are there pros or cons to this? They are Triad in-wall bronze subs...included pics.
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post #5 of 60 Old 05-12-2013, 04:46 AM
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The Triad Bonze subs will be fine.  In walls are tough to get the best placement and because the drivers can't have the excursion of a stand alone sub with bigger box typically don't output as much as their stand alone counterparts.  From the description of your room you are going to need them near a corner to get decent output.  Since your room is so long I probably wouldn't put one in the back of the room and just put one in each front corner.  With the DSP amps I'd set the high pass filter to ~35hz and don't try to get any real low bass with those subs in your size room.  Using this setting will give you more output and help from over driving your subs.

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post #6 of 60 Old 05-12-2013, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mflo Soldier View Post

Well I already have two in wall subs, so I want to use them. Are there pros or cons to this? They are Triad in-wall bronze subs...included pics.

BobL gave you the answer. There are two big pros (actually three) with an in-room sub vs in-wall. The first being that you can move the sub(s) around the room to find the best placement for frequency response at the listening position. The second big pro is in-room subs tend to have larger enclosures and drivers which can give you more output and extension. The third being in-room subs tend to offer more performance for the money. Obviously the biggest drawback to in-room is aesthetic. You have a box or two sitting in your room.

Since you already own the Triad's then follow BobL's advice on placement and, based on the size of your room, try to get the most output from them vs the most extension. It looks like the DSP on the Triad subs have a number of different filter options so you can try different modes to see what sounds best in your room. Keep in mind many of us our bass heads around here, so our idea of bass and others are very different smile.gif If I was going to buy an in-wall sub I would have bought a Triad as well.

The only other thing I would offer would be investing in a receiver down the road (try the Yamaha now and see if you like it since you already own it) that has subwoofer EQ built-in (the Yamaha does not). Denon and Onkyo both make affordable receivers that have Audyssey XT 32 and or Sub EQ HT. Since the Triad's are also 4ohm rated, I would also buy a receiver that is 4ohm rated and can easily drive the speakers if you plan to push them loud.
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post #7 of 60 Old 05-13-2013, 07:41 PM - Thread Starter
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So I'm a new member here, but reading/browsing for awhile. Just wanted to say you guys are awesome here, I am so glad that I posted here to get some help & thoughts on this. Although I already have the 2 Triad in-wall bronze subs, I do not have an amp for either. Assume I will need one each 250W Triad amp to drive each sub, correct?

I am not opposed at all to using an in-room sub (would like cost effective great performance...I currently have an old Velodyne on a system in my upstairs) it's just that I bought the speakers and sub as a package so I have them.. If I could find a buyer for the Triad subs, I guess I'd definitely consider using in-room sub.

As for receivers, anyone have any specific model references they like in a setup similar to this that I could begin researching further?

Again, really appreciate the feedback here.

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post #8 of 60 Old 05-14-2013, 07:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks in advance-
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post #9 of 60 Old 05-15-2013, 03:50 AM
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You need to find the Triad amp for those subs.  You can't just use any subwoofer amp.  The Triad amps are EQ'd for that driver.  I might have some if interested and if that is the old Bronze sub.  If it is the newer one you will need one of their DSP amps.

 

For receivers, I would look for something with a good sub EQ.  Each receiver has its advantages.  For calibrating a system without other measurement equipment I like the Anthem receivers or the Pro kit for Audyssey receivers, I'd stick with Marantz or Denon.  Yamaha is the most reliable brand but a separate sub EQ would be recommended with model below the A2020.  However, if you do have measurement equipment the Yamahas' have a decent manual parametric EQ for the main channels.  It is a little coarse for the sub, so I still like a separate sub EQ if possible with them.  

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post #10 of 60 Old 05-16-2013, 07:59 PM - Thread Starter
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BobL- thanks so much; I believe the subs may be the former model but how can tell?
Anyone out there? I'm looking for two amps...or, maybe I'm looking for a buyer of my two in-wall subs, and then I should consider an in-room sub.
Appreciate the feedback on receivers too...
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post #11 of 60 Old 05-16-2013, 09:46 PM
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Call Triad and give them the serial #, they will tell you which version it is.

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post #12 of 60 Old 05-18-2013, 08:20 PM - Thread Starter
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J don't see the serial # ... am I some how missing an obvious place to look?
Thanks in advance-
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post #13 of 60 Old 05-19-2013, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Anyone know where the serial # is on the speakers?

Thank you-
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post #14 of 60 Old 05-19-2013, 10:19 PM
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Little known secret: Triad stamps the back of the drivers with serial numbers as well so that they can track who is selling online. If the serial number is no longer on the speaker anywhere you MIGHT have to take on apart and get the number off of the driver.

Either way... Call them before you takemthe speaker apart!
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post #15 of 60 Old 05-24-2013, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
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I've attached three pictures to show my family room / home theater but the overall basement rec room. Would be interested if placement of these speakers as shown is optimal or what other feedback anyone may have.

I'm drywalling in the next few days so I want to run wires and need to plan for the in-wall speakers appropriately & soon!

Front TV wall view:


Top view Fam Rm / Theater area:


Top view overall basement rec room:


Thanks in advance!

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post #16 of 60 Old 05-26-2013, 08:55 AM
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I would use the triad inwall subs and add a 10 or 12 floor sub.

We use 2 James Loudspeaker Baby Grand Concerto's LR with 10" honey comb subs built in each speaker with the M1000 sub Amp + EMB1200 on floor and it rocks.

The Triads should do the same...

VSX-53, VSX-51,VSX-81 Pioneer Elites and Denon 1611
James loudspeaker inwalls main and future theater
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post #17 of 60 Old 05-29-2013, 12:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the feedback so far; appreciate any additional comments especially on the first picture I posted above showing the Front TV wall view. Wondering if the TV, L/C/R, and especially the in-wall sub's are positioned well...especially whether the subs low to the ground essentially in each corner of the wall are OK.

Also, does anyone know if the current version Triad RackAmp 350 DSP is OK to use with "older" in-wall subs (I believe this is what I have) which used to use a 250W amp which I believe is the former type of amp Triad produced? I don't have amps yet and want to make sure whatever I get is compatible.

The basement Triad theater is proceeding: CAT6 cable and 12AWG speaker wire for in-wall installation was ordered (from monoprice dot com ... good website & prices I think) and will be here soon so wiring will begin ASAP, then drywall soon. I'll try to keep some updates here in this thread as I create the Triad setup...

Thanks again for everyone's help & inputs here...
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post #18 of 60 Old 06-02-2013, 07:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Bump... Appreciate any help on my questions!
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post #19 of 60 Old 06-22-2013, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello again to anyone reading this...appreciate any comments on the last couple questions I had.

Also, would the inwall silver minimonitors I already have do well as in my 5.1 setup as the L and R rear surruonds? I'm planning to mount them in the wall on each side closely aligned with the couch seating, maybe just slight behind it. (I know Triad also makes the InWall Bronze/4 Surround which looks awesome, but since I already have the silver minimonitors I would like to use them).

Thanks in advance for some feedback!
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post #20 of 60 Old 06-26-2013, 08:38 AM
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The newer amps should work with the older subs, but you'll have some EQ work to do in Audyssey. Also, the limiter in the new amp is different, and won't offer as much protection due to a higher threshold.

I'm glad you are apparently moving your surrounds more to the sides of the listening area, and not in the back. Your room would do well with 7.1, but if you do 5.1, side surrounds are much more important. Set the surround crossover for Silver MiniMonitors at 120 Hz. They're great speakers, but they don't handle much power below 80 Hz.

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post #21 of 60 Old 06-28-2013, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Paul and Everyone -
Any additional feedback on my first post 6 questions?
Also, any thoughts on my arrangement as shown in the first picture if post # 15?

THANKS!!!
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post #22 of 60 Old 06-29-2013, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
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bump... anyone?
THANKS!!
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post #23 of 60 Old 06-29-2013, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Installing subs and speakers... 2 subs in each front corner. I don't have Triad install brackets, don't know where to get them, haven't seen how they work. Anyone know if I can drywall before getting them or if I can secure them some other way and not use Triad brackets? I am doing this work myself and have used 2x4 's horizontally as you can see in the photos.







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post #24 of 60 Old 06-29-2013, 07:57 PM
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Call Triad or a Triad dealer and order some frames and grills.  You'll want them as the frames not only secure the speaker to the wall they also hold the grill.  The bars that slide out from the sub, shown in your picture usually goes behind the drywall and the frame screws into the sub's screw holes holding the sub in place.  We just ordered some frames and grills not too long ago for some older silver surrounds, they were $110 each MSRP.  I'm not sure if the sub frame and grill is more expensive as that model the sub grill is thicker and protrudes from the wall about an inch. It is not really that noticeable if it is paint matched.

 

 If you don't want to use the Triad frame and grill you could screw into the sub from the 2x4 above it.  I'd use 2" screws so you don't go more than ~1/2" into the sub cabinet.  I would remove the slide out bars as they do nothing without the frames and you'll be able to get the speaker more flush.  You would then have to make some type of frame with an acoustically transparent material like speaker cloth to hide the sub.  Frankly, its is just easier to get new frames and grills. The money in time saved trying to make another solution is worth it, plus triad paint matches them for no extra cost. 

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post #25 of 60 Old 06-30-2013, 01:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

Call Triad or a Triad dealer and order some frames and grills.  You'll want them as the frames not only secure the speaker to the wall they also hold the grill.  The bars that slide out from the sub, shown in your picture usually goes behind the drywall and the frame screws into the sub's screw holes holding the sub in place.  We just ordered some frames and grills not too long ago for some older silver surrounds, they were $110 each MSRP.  I'm not sure if the sub frame and grill is more expensive as that model the sub grill is thicker and protrudes from the wall about an inch. It is not really that noticeable if it is paint matched.

 If you don't want to use the Triad frame and grill you could screw into the sub from the 2x4 above it.  I'd use 2" screws so you don't go more than ~1/2" into the sub cabinet.  I would remove the slide out bars as they do nothing without the frames and you'll be able to get the speaker more flush.  You would then have to make some type of frame with an acoustically transparent material like speaker cloth to hide the sub.  Frankly, its is just easier to get new frames and grills. The money in time saved trying to make another solution is worth it, plus triad paint matches them for no extra cost. 

+1 but the sub looks like the Bronze/6 sub so the grill doesn't protrude into the room like the older Bronze/4 sub.

Order the pre-wire frames and finished frames and grills for them and you will be fine. Or you can ask a Triad dealer to ask Triad if they will repaint the frames and grills for you. They may charge you for it but I highly recommend having them do it as the grill is a mesh material and are very difficult to paint them correctly.

I wouldn't screw the sub directly into the framing. Remove the upper and lower 2x4s, that frame the sub in, and install the sub after finishing using the proper drywall installation procedure. You also might get some noise placing the sub right next to the HVAC, so be mindful of that.
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post #26 of 60 Old 07-01-2013, 11:42 PM - Thread Starter
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BobL, ifor,

First, thanks so much for looking & repying.

These are the Bronze subs, 6" depth.
If you look at the very beginning of my post you can see I also have the frames & grills; sorry I was not more clear about that, I guess my pics of it in the wall I didn't show any frame or grill.
So when you attach the frame the screw to do so attaches it directly to the sub enclosure (same type of hole and machine screw in each of the corners like those little slide out bars you can see). Therefore, nothings holding this to the wall as shown...it's just sitting on top of the horizontal 2x4 in the picture.
I believe there must be some sort of new construction bracket or something but I don't know anything about it or how to get them, both for my two subs and for 5 silver minimonitors that I have...so was trying to get some advice on how to mount these in-wall?

Also, Any additional feedback on my first post 6 questions? Also, any thoughts on my arrangement of tv, speakers, etc as shown in the first picture if post # 15?

Thank you-
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post #27 of 60 Old 07-02-2013, 01:11 AM
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I would contact Marc Meinhardt at 414.322.2003 who is the Triad rep for Wisconsin.
He can get you in contact with a dealer in your area who can order the pre-wire brackets. Or help you send the grills and frames into Triad for painting.

The way to install them after drywall has gone up, is to cut a hole in the drywall so the speaker cabinet will fit, fit in the speaker into the cavity and move the metal legs behind the drywall, where you then screw them tight so that they stay in place, all the while holding the speaker and installing the frame that screw into the metal legs.
http://theater.stevejenkins.com/docs/Triad_Inwall_Install.pdf

I told you to remove the two 2x4s so the metal legs would have space to move and be placed properly behind the drywall. This wouldn't matter if you got the pre-wire brackets but will make a big difference if you didn't want to use them. I am in favor of using them btw, so you can get your placement perfect and move framing if needed to.
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post #28 of 60 Old 07-02-2013, 10:07 PM - Thread Starter
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ifor,

Thanks for the information -- I did reach out to the WI rep.

Are you saying you are in favor of using the Triad new construction brackets? (vs. the way I was thinking of doing it by framing the speaker enclosures with horizontally placed 2x4's)

Appreciate if anyone has any feedback on the layout/questions above as well.
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post #29 of 60 Old 07-02-2013, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mflo Soldier View Post

ifor,

Are you saying you are in favor of using the Triad new construction brackets? (vs. the way I was thinking of doing it by framing the speaker enclosures with horizontally placed 2x4's).

Yes.

But if you don't want to use the pre-wire brackets, those horizontal 2x4s will be in the way of the metal legs in the speaker. I also wouldn't screw the speaker cabinets directly to the studs either.
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post #30 of 60 Old 07-03-2013, 04:32 AM
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If you have the frames and the grills I wouldn't use the cross 2x4's and just cut the opening after the drywall is up. I told you to screw it in when I thought that you didn't have the frames and grills and were looking for a different solution.  BTW Triad states it is OK to screw into the cabinet but only 1/2" as not to penetrate through the cabinet.  We had to do this for an in ceiling installation and that is what Triad's recommended and actually stated it was preferred when possible.   The pre-construction bracket only helps the drywallers make the cutout.  But, it is easy cut in after the drywall is up if you don't want to get the brackets.  I would remove the 2x4's as not to get in the way of those bars.

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