Speaker pre-wire location help - AVS Forum
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Old 05-15-2013, 07:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Can some one tell me if the marking in the layout are correct for a 5.1 pre-wiring. I have to tell my builder the location. The media center will be under the tv and the TV will be wall mounted. It looks like corner placement but only for pre-wiring location, I can have my speakers move in and away from the walls. Just want to make sure that I have the right locations marked and if in the future need to move the tv on top of the fireplace I will be fine with the locations.
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Old 05-15-2013, 01:35 PM
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Yeah, you're good to go. And as you mention, you will want to move the mains out from the corners and away from the front wall.
I would suggest you do not place the screen over the FP...external heat source is never a good thing for electronics (if the FP is going to be used).

The sub location would be better up front, if there is room.
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Old 05-16-2013, 08:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, you're good to go. And as you mention, you will want to move the mains out from the corners and away from the front wall.
I would suggest you do not place the screen over the FP...external heat source is never a good thing for electronics (if the FP is going to be used).

The sub location would be better up front, if there is room.

thank you for your response and confirming the locations, and also for the advise for not mounting it above fireplace.
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Old 05-16-2013, 07:40 PM
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Is this a new construction or a retrofit? If possible, I would temporarily setup the system an play with speaker locations (if possible). If not, in the very least, I would bring in the sub and do the sub crawl test to determine the best location for the sub if you do not have proper measuring equipment. You may find that where you originally planned is already the best place for it. There is no hard and fast rule for subwoofer placement. The subwoofer is the most highly room influenced speaker in an audio setup.
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Old 05-16-2013, 08:00 PM
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Looks good to me. I agree about the sub placement being room dependent. Do you have the option to have sub wire to multiple locations? If not, don't sweat it as there are plenty of wireless converters for subs.
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Old 05-17-2013, 04:34 AM
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Is this a new construction or a retrofit? If possible, I would temporarily setup the system an play with speaker locations (if possible). If not, in the very least, I would bring in the sub and do the sub crawl test to determine the best location for the sub if you do not have proper measuring equipment. You may find that where you originally planned is already the best place for it. There is no hard and fast rule for subwoofer placement. The subwoofer is the most highly room influenced speaker in an audio setup.


That is not completely true. If mains are shoved into corners, the soundstage will suffer...it will be pinched.
Whenever possible, mains should have 4~5 ft to the side walls or even more to develop a wide soundstage. And the farther out from the back wall also better, as in a deep soundstage.
The exception to that being the speakers are horns, say the JBL Everest II, with its dual 15" woofers, the one closest to the wall is switched to low bass. The horns direct the mids/highs to the center of the room.

But the crawl test for the sub is the best thing to do for sub placement. Sometimes that ideal placement can be quite surprising. In the room I designed/built in my last US residence, the optimal sub placement was right where the mains were located. Something that does not happen often.
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Old 05-17-2013, 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

[/B]

That is not completely true. If mains are shoved into corners, the soundstage will suffer...it will be pinched.
Whenever possible, mains should have 4~5 ft to the side walls or even more to develop a wide soundstage. And the farther out from the back wall also better, as in a deep soundstage.
The exception to that being the speakers are horns, say the JBL Everest II, with its dual 15" woofers, the one closest to the wall is switched to low bass. The horns direct the mids/highs to the center of the room.

But the crawl test for the sub is the best thing to do for sub placement. Sometimes that ideal placement can be quite surprising. In the room I designed/built in my last US residence, the optimal sub placement was right where the mains were located. Something that does not happen often.

My sub is acting as a stand for my mains and it works great. I have always put my sub closed to the mains for best integration. I have never experience a sub on the back far away from the front so much, i would guess they will be ok for movie but with music, i cant say for sure.
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Old 05-17-2013, 05:04 AM
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My sub is acting as a stand for my mains and it works great. I have always put my sub closed to the mains for best integration. I have never experience a sub on the back far away from the front so much, i would guess they will be ok for movie but with music, i cant say for sure.
Most certainly if there is only one sub, being up front is usually best.
For years I also had my mains mounted to my two 15" subs, acting as full range speakers.
I even had two pairs of mains mounted back-back to those subs for awhile. Using a ball-bearings to be able to rotate them.
One set for the 7.2, and the other pair for stereo.
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Old 05-20-2013, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

[/B]

That is not completely true. If mains are shoved into corners, the soundstage will suffer...it will be pinched.
Whenever possible, mains should have 4~5 ft to the side walls or even more to develop a wide soundstage. And the farther out from the back wall also better, as in a deep soundstage.
The exception to that being the speakers are horns, say the JBL Everest II, with its dual 15" woofers, the one closest to the wall is switched to low bass. The horns direct the mids/highs to the center of the room.

But the crawl test for the sub is the best thing to do for sub placement. Sometimes that ideal placement can be quite surprising. In the room I designed/built in my last US residence, the optimal sub placement was right where the mains were located. Something that does not happen often.

I think you are confusing first reflection points with room interaction. Yes most, if not all, speakers will sound better when away from boundaries, but that is not the room itself. That is just a first reflection point. A first reflection point can be anything. A table, book case, etc. Subs are different. The sound waves produced by subs are long enough that the room as a whole affects the frequency response depending on where it is placed relative to the seating position. This is the reason for the peaks and nulls a person experiences when walking around the room. These peaks and nulls can and often are in the magnitude of over 10dB - 15dB swings. This is the reason why it is recommended that a properly set up system have multiple subs. Multiple subs placed properly throughout the room will smooth out the frequency response across a broader area. If you've ever walked around your room with the sub running you will notice that there are spots in the room that the bass is boomy and reinforced while other spots the bass is considerably less present. Depending on the frequency, these spots will be different. Even a shift as small as a foot can make a big difference. This is an effect of the room and the placement of the sub.

You simply do not experience this with satellite speakers. Satellite speakers have a whole different set of issues, but those issues are more of first reflection points and sound treatments (absorption/diffusion panels, carpets, rugs, etc) can help with that. Your example of the horn tweeters reinforces my point. Horns are more directional than dome speakers so the first reflection points are minimized so are less affected by nearby boundaries. Frequencies produced by subs are very long and omnidirectional so small first reflection points like tables, book cases, etc. have very little effect on the response curve. With satellites, what you hear is primarily the source of the sound, meaning the speaker. Your position relative to the direct wave source will impact the frequency response more so than the room will. The room will smear or color the sound due to secondary reflections, but it won't cause huge swings in frequency response like it would with subs. This is why off axis measurements are given for satellite speakers and why those measurements are important.
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Old 05-20-2013, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

I think you are confusing first reflection points with room interaction. Yes most, if not all, speakers will sound better when away from boundaries, but that is not the room itself. That is just a first reflection point. A first reflection point can be anything. A table, book case, etc. Subs are different. The sound waves produced by subs are long enough that the room as a whole affects the frequency response depending on where it is placed relative to the seating position. This is the reason for the peaks and nulls a person experiences when walking around the room. These peaks and nulls can and often are in the magnitude of over 10dB - 15dB swings. This is the reason why it is recommended that a properly set up system have multiple subs. Multiple subs placed properly throughout the room will smooth out the frequency response across a broader area. If you've ever walked around your room with the sub running you will notice that there are spots in the room that the bass is boomy and reinforced while other spots the bass is considerably less present. Depending on the frequency, these spots will be different. Even a shift as small as a foot can make a big difference. This is an effect of the room and the placement of the sub.

You simply do not experience this with satellite speakers. Satellite speakers have a whole different set of issues, but those issues are more of first reflection points and sound treatments (absorption/diffusion panels, carpets, rugs, etc) can help with that. Your example of the horn tweeters reinforces my point. Horns are more directional than dome speakers so the first reflection points are minimized so are less affected by nearby boundaries. Frequencies produced by subs are very long and omnidirectional so small first reflection points like tables, book cases, etc. have very little effect on the response curve. With satellites, what you hear is primarily the source of the sound, meaning the speaker. Your position relative to the direct wave source will impact the frequency response more so than the room will. The room will smear or color the sound due to secondary reflections, but it won't cause huge swings in frequency response like it would with subs. This is why off axis measurements are given for satellite speakers and why those measurements are important.

Not at all. In my last residence the room was only 11'-3" wide. With the mains only one foot from the walls.
And as such I installed wall panels at the first reflection points, that eliminated one problem...those reflections being bounced back into the cones, thus smearing the sound. Or being sent to my seat just milliseconds after the direct sound.

Because of the speakers being so close to the walls it pinched the soundstage, even with those panels in place.
I've also heard that exact same problem in showrooms with the mains too close to the walls, pinched soundstage.
In every situation where I had 4.5 ft and more to the side walls, I would get a very wide soundstage.
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Old 05-20-2013, 09:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Not at all. In my last residence the room was only 11'-3" wide. With the mains only one foot from the walls.
And as such I installed wall panels at the first reflection points, that eliminated one problem...those reflections being bounced back into the cones, thus smearing the sound. Or being sent to my seat just milliseconds after the direct sound.

Because of the speakers being so close to the walls it pinched the soundstage, even with those panels in place.
I've also heard that exact same problem in showrooms with the mains too close to the walls, pinched soundstage.
In every situation where I had 4.5 ft and more to the side walls, I would get a very wide soundstage.

I am thinking of canceling the pre-wiring through the builder. I am not a DIY so I don't know if I can go and out the wires myself before drywall. Could you guys tell me which wires should I buy?
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Old 05-20-2013, 09:29 AM
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If you're not a DIYer why are you canceling prewiring?
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Old 05-20-2013, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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I am cancelling because they are changing so much and putting 16gauge wires. I spoke to a local dealer and he said, I don't ven need to do 5.1 pre-wire, I can just do it for the 2 back speakers. Also, since I have unfinished basement, he said it will be easier to do it later with better wires.(14gauge)

Also, the builder's vendor is not good at recommending location etc. Plus doing it later will be more accurate as furniture's will be already there and we can choose the location accordingly.
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Old 05-20-2013, 10:13 AM
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I am thinking of canceling the pre-wiring through the builder. I am not a DIY so I don't know if I can go and out the wires myself before drywall. Could you guys tell me which wires should I buy?

16ga is a joke, especially for long runs. And for in-wall it needs to CL rated. The 12 ga that Blue Jeans Cable sells is rated for in-wall.
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