In-Ceiling Speakers for Music and Movies - AVS Forum
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
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I am looking for in ceiling speakers that will function as both the rear surrounds for my 5.1 system and for music. I watch about as much tv and movies as I do listen to music, so they need to be good for both of these things. I listen to pop, R&B and light rock. Budget is so hard to decide. I was thinking at most $200 per speakers, but I would rather wait and save and get speakers I will be happy with longterm than buy speakers right now and have to replace them in the future because they aren't good enough.

The Polk Audio RC80i are tempting, but I am just that price just seems to good to be true, and I dont want to have buyers remorse.
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:53 AM
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In-ceiling speakers should never be used for serious music listening. In-walls for the LCRs would be much better.
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Old 05-17-2013, 10:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Unfortunately, they are my only option. I am currently comparing AIM8 Threes and Deftech speakers. It is a smallish room though (like 10ft x 9ft) so I wonder if Deftech would be overkill? I'd say my budget for five speakers is like $2000 (I could put the center speaker below the TV though).

So the current options I am looking at are:

Option 1
4 SpeakerCraft AIM8 Three (Left, Right, Rears)
1 Speakercraft AIM LCR3 Three (Center)
Sub

Option 2
3 Definitive Tech UIW RCS III (LCR)
2 Definitive Tech UIW RSS III (Surround)
Sub

Has anyone actually had a chance to compare the speakercraft AIMs and the DefTechs?

**With regards to an enclosure, the definitive tech seems to have one built in, and speaker craft sells one, but unfortunately it looks like it can only be used for pre drywall installations, and this will be installed into my existing room.
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Old 05-18-2013, 05:42 AM
 
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To get the best sound out of speakers they need to aim at you.  Most of the angled speakers like the Speakercraft AIM only angle to ~15 degrees, which means they are still pointing mostly down and not at the listeners.  Look for speakers that angle 30 degree or more.  The Deftechs should work.  Some other brands to consider.

 

Paradigm 30 degrees - Various models starting at $279

Triad 35-45 degrees - Various models starting at $600

Episode 700 series 45 degrees - $799

Thiel Powerpoint (on-ceiling) 60 degrees - $1499

JBL LS360 30 degree - $549

 

There are probably others I'm not thinking about, but I wouldn't use LCR speakers with only 15 degrees unless you are sitting 3 feet from them.

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Old 05-18-2013, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prnoct90 View Post

Unfortunately, they are my only option. I am currently comparing AIM8 Threes and Deftech speakers. It is a smallish room though (like 10ft x 9ft) so I wonder if Deftech would be overkill? I'd say my budget for five speakers is like $2000 (I could put the center speaker below the TV though).

So the current options I am looking at are:

Option 1
4 SpeakerCraft AIM8 Three (Left, Right, Rears)
1 Speakercraft AIM LCR3 Three (Center)
Sub

Option 2
3 Definitive Tech UIW RCS III (LCR)
2 Definitive Tech UIW RSS III (Surround)
Sub

Has anyone actually had a chance to compare the speakercraft AIMs and the DefTechs?

**With regards to an enclosure, the definitive tech seems to have one built in, and speaker craft sells one, but unfortunately it looks like it can only be used for pre drywall installations, and this will be installed into my existing room.

I own Speakercraft AIM series upstairs in the family room, and Deftech UIW RLS and RSS speakers in the media area. There is no comparison in my opinion. The Deftech speakers are head and shoulders better.

BobL makes some great recommendations, aside the angle of speaker woofer/tweeter, I would not buy a speaker that does not either have an engineered enclosure, or one that offers an enclosure as an add-on.

What are you thinking in terms of the sub?
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Old 05-18-2013, 07:41 AM
 
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I agree that an enclosure or back box is recommended as speakers sound different depending on the size of cavity they are placed. It will often change the sound in the bass/ mid bass area and of course have bleed through into adjacent rooms.  Part of this will depend on budget though and back boxes often are not easy to retrofit unless you don't mind patching drywall which isn't hard but raises the cost.  Any of those I mentioned are either enclosed or have a back box available.

 

For surround speakers I'd use more of a bi-pole/ di-pole speaker to get better envelopment or if you use 5 of the same speakers angle the surrounds at the side walls for better dispersion and less localization of the surround sound.  In your small space you are probably seated too close to get them wide enough to angle them towards the listening position. 

 

If you plan to use in ceiling speakers for the front speakers none of those Revels linked would work for your application.  Revel does make nice speakers and their C763 would be fine for the fronts, it is the same as the JBL design with different drivers.  They are both Harman companies.  And for the surrounds you could use one of their DT (dual tweeter) models or angle towards the wall if using 5 of the same speakers.  These would be better choices for your application.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-Revel-C763L-In-Ceiling-Speaker-with-Grill-each-/310669578438?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item48555990c6

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-Revel-C363DT-In-Ceiling-Speaker-with-Grill-each-/310669578334?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item485559905e

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-Revel-C563DT-In-Ceiling-Speaker-with-Grill-each-/310669578408?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item48555990a8

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Old 05-18-2013, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
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I agree that an enclosure or back box is recommended as speakers sound different depending on the size of cavity they are placed. It will often change the sound in the bass/ mid bass area and of course have bleed through into adjacent rooms.  Part of this will depend on budget though and back boxes often are not easy to retrofit unless you don't mind patching drywall which isn't hard but raises the cost.  Any of those I mentioned are either enclosed or have a back box available.

For surround speakers I'd use more of a bi-pole/ di-pole speaker to get better envelopment or if you use 5 of the same speakers angle the surrounds at the side walls for better dispersion and less localization of the surround sound.  In your small space you are probably seated too close to get them wide enough to angle them towards the listening position. 

If you plan to use in ceiling speakers for the front speakers none of those Revels linked would work for your application.  Revel does make nice speakers and their C763 would be fine for the fronts, it is the same as the JBL design with different drivers.  They are both Harman companies.  And for the surrounds you could use one of their DT (dual tweeter) models or angle towards the wall if using 5 of the same speakers.  These would be better choices for your application.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-Revel-C763L-In-Ceiling-Speaker-with-Grill-each-/310669578438?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item48555990c6

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-Revel-C363DT-In-Ceiling-Speaker-with-Grill-each-/310669578334?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item485559905e

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-Revel-C563DT-In-Ceiling-Speaker-with-Grill-each-/310669578408?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item48555990a8

Of course, the higher end Revel will be the best for the application. But his budget is only $200 per speaker.
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:06 AM
 
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I put it as reference as the ones you linked aim straight down and not towards the listener, they wouldn't work for this situation.  Also, he is considering Speakercraft and Deftech which are retail $300-$600 so I didn't think it was out of his budget.  The least expensive is probably paradigm with a MSRP of $279.

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Old 05-18-2013, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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I actually have enough space under the tv for the center speaker (unfortunately not enough for all three front speakers due to doors), would it be better to put the center speaker under the TV and then use the C763L for right and left, or should I just stick to the C763L for all three? If it would be better to use an in wall, which would your recommend that is timber matched?

Anyone know the difference between the C363DT and the C563DT? Is it worth the extra money for the C563DT? Also, are these timber matched with the C763L?

Would it be a problem for music listening that these are all different?

Also, I'm still stuck with the speaker box problem even with these right?
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Old 05-18-2013, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

the ones you linked aim straight down and not towards the listener.
Gotcha.
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Old 05-18-2013, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prnoct90 View Post

I actually have enough space under the tv for the center speaker (unfortunately not enough for all three front speakers due to doors), would it be better to put the center speaker under the TV and then use the C763L for right and left, or should I just stick to the C763L for all three? If it would be better to use an in wall, which would your recommend that is timber matched?

Anyone know the difference between the C363DT and the C563DT? Is it worth the extra money for the C563DT? Also, are these timber matched with the C763L?

Would it be a problem for music listening that these are all different?

If you could do in-wall, that would be better than in-ceiling.

Depends on your budget; higher-end will sound better, but even the $200 will still sound great.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-Revel-W873-In-Wall-Speaker-with-Grill-each-/321125592213?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item4ac493ac95

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-Revel-W583-In-Wall-Speaker-with-Grill-each-/321125592174?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item4ac493ac6e

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-Revel-W253L-In-Wall-Speaker-with-Grill-each-/230978072596?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item35c75db014
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Old 05-18-2013, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, just kidding, I ended up getting the

Definitive Tech UIW RSS III x 2

because I got a really good deal on a last minute auction.

So, my question now is, should I get 3 of the RCS III for LCR, or should I get two for LR and put an in wall below the TV? If so, which would be good to go with these speakers?

(Maybe this one?
http://www.definitivetech.com/products/uiw-rls-iii
)
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Old 05-18-2013, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prnoct90 View Post

I actually have enough space under the tv for the center speaker (unfortunately not enough for all three front speakers due to doors), would it be better to put the center speaker under the TV and then use the C763L for right and left, or should I just stick to the C763L for all three? If it would be better to use an in wall, which would your recommend that is timber matched?

Anyone know the difference between the C363DT and the C563DT? Is it worth the extra money for the C563DT? Also, are these timber matched with the C763L?

Would it be a problem for music listening that these are all different?

Also, I'm still stuck with the speaker box problem even with these right?

How large is your screen? Would a speaker bar fit below? You could get LCRs right below the screen.
http://www.revelspeakers.com/images/prodphotos/prod_60_634503033234720497_LCR8-Front-Black.jpg
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Old 05-18-2013, 02:53 PM - Thread Starter
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yah, i considered a bar, but it would look bad in the space do t space contraints, and it wouldnt be very good for music
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Old 05-18-2013, 03:22 PM
 
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I would do all three in the ceiling.  The center below will not allow good pans across the front soundstage as there is too much difference in height between the center and L/R.  When possible it is best to use 3 identical speakers all at the same height.  You would be able to achieve this with the in ceilings.  As a general rule it is preferable to have the speakers at ear height but that will be line compromise you'll have to make.  If the TV is mounted high the in ceilings can still give the illusion that the sound is coming from the TV.

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Old 05-18-2013, 08:50 PM
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Old 05-19-2013, 03:10 AM - Thread Starter
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I was probably gonna go for the RCS III because of space contraints, but will listening to dual stereo on RCS and RSS sound funny? Or are they close enough?
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Old 05-19-2013, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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It looks like maybe if I move some stuff around, I could clear an area that is about 50" wide below the TV. While I really like the cleanliness the RCS III provide, I could hypothetically put three UIW RLS III together it would be about 40" of speaker with about 2.5" between each speaker. In other words, it would be very smashed and not very separated at all. Won't I get a better result with more separation (via the RCSs)? Unfortunately, floor standing arent an option (wish I could)
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Old 05-19-2013, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by prnoct90 View Post

It looks like maybe if I move some stuff around, I could clear an area that is about 50" wide below the TV. While I really like the cleanliness the RCS III provide, I could hypothetically put three UIW RLS III together it would be about 40" of speaker with about 2.5" between each speaker. In other words, it would be very smashed and not very separated at all. Won't I get a better result with more separation (via the RCSs)? Unfortunately, floor standing arent an option (wish I could)
A top quality soundbar like the Revel LCR8 would provide better 3 channel sound than placing LCRs too close to each other.
The LCR8 is just under 40" long.
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Old 05-19-2013, 06:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Cant find the Revel LCR8 anywhere for sale
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Old 05-20-2013, 05:00 AM
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Cant find the Revel LCR8 anywhere for sale
I would email Revel asking where it can be purchased. Over the years, I've found the Harman brands to have very good customer service.
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Old 05-21-2013, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
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yah, i thought it was important to get all your speakers from the same company
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Old 05-21-2013, 12:28 PM
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yah, i thought it was important to get all your speakers from the same company
Same brand and usually same series. A mis-match of brands can result in anything from 'not too bad', to 'terrible'.
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Old 05-21-2013, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Same brand and usually same series. A mis-match of brands can result in anything from 'not too bad', to 'terrible'.

Well, then what are a good soundbar, in ceiling surrounds that are all from the same series within a $2000 budget?
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Old 05-22-2013, 01:02 AM - Thread Starter
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the only reason I was partial to the def techs is they are enclosed
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Old 05-22-2013, 03:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, I switched things up for the sake of brand consistency, and I chickened out with getting all in ceiling for all five so here is the new plan.

1 x Revel Concerta LCR8
2 x Revel C563DT

Thanks for all the advice, and hopefully this will sound good. Will just stuffing some fiberglass insulation behind these be enough?

EDIT: Why were the dual tweeter recommended? Would each speaker need two sets of cables?

BTW, Here is a quick mockup of my room
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Old 05-22-2013, 05:01 AM
 
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Dual tweeters help with better envelopment for surround applications, it helps them from being too localized. You don't need to run two sets of speaker wires, but you do need to connect both terminals. You run a small wire from one terminal to the other and the small wire will connect the opposite leads i.e. Black to red, and red to black. The reason there are two terminals as they can be used to get stereo sound in small areas like a hall or small bathroom, in that application you would have to run two sets of wires. I think using the sound bar is a good choice for your application.
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Old 05-22-2013, 05:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Dual tweeters help with better envelopment for surround applications, it helps them from being too localized. You don't need to run two sets of speaker wires, but you do need to connect both terminals. You run a small wire from one terminal to the other and the small wire will connect the opposite leads i.e. Black to red, and red to black. The reason there are two terminals as they can be used to get stereo sound in small areas like a hall or small bathroom, in that application you would have to run two sets of wires. I think using the sound bar is a good choice for your application.

The only other option I was considering now was three of the C763L. The problem is, I really can't find reviews on either the soundbar or the C763Ls. It is very frustrating. Why are there no reviews anywhere for this stuff? It keeps making me second guess it
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Old 05-22-2013, 05:25 AM
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The only other option I was considering now was three of the C763L. The problem is, I really can't find reviews on either the soundbar or the C763Ls. It is very frustrating. Why are there no reviews anywhere for this stuff? It keeps making me second guess it
If its Revel its usually all good. The one exception to Revel is the Gem2 speaker. It is a very good speaker, but JBL PT800 is almost identical in design and much cheaper. In fact the Gem2 was designed based on the PT800. But that is OT.

I have not even seen prices for the LCR8. I think I did see a review a few months back, but I don't remember where.
And looking at your new drawing, I can say my thoughts towards the LCR8 would be the right choice with those two doors to either side.
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