Do I really need Expensive Speakers for Home Theater? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 76 Old 05-19-2013, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
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I am looking to buy speakers for a home theater, but I need the low down.

I keep reading reviews on high end speakers and how people compare them side-by-side using the same classical music, etc.

However, the fronts, center and rears. I am not that interested how speakers will image a classical band, but whether it will be able to play an action scene without blowing up. To me home theater speakers need to produce just enough imagining (for a movie) while having the power handling to take on some explosive scenes. For example, I know B&W are excellent speakers, but are they the best bang for my buck for playing loud (and clear) movies?

Based on reading this forum I have demoed the following

B&W 684
Focal 726
Paradigm Studio 60, 100, monitor 11
PSB Image T
Def tech 8040
Kef Q 700
Polk TSI 300


To me the B&W 684 sounded very open and felt had a wide soundstage, The focals also sounded good for the music when A/B against PSB. Paradigm Studio 60 also sounded great, did n't care for the rest.

But for movies all of them sounded kinda the same, so would a cheaper infinity primus p363 not be able to do the job for HT.

I also am reading that the center channel is the most important piece, but the B&W 600 series center gets mixed reviews, so does the focal 700 series, I don't know how the Paradigm or PSB center in their respective series fair.

Any inputs?
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post #2 of 76 Old 05-19-2013, 07:30 AM
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Whats your budget?

With your focus on movies/hometheater action you would be wise to really consider JTRs something like the Triple 8s or 228HT. http://jtrspeakers.com/ http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/triple-8ht/
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post #3 of 76 Old 05-19-2013, 07:51 AM
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For movie viewing, take a look at Klipsch, KL-650 THX. http://www.klipsch.com/kl-650-thx-bookshelf-speaker

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post #4 of 76 Old 05-19-2013, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by sid369 View Post


But for movies all of them sounded kinda the same, so would a cheaper infinity primus p363 not be able to do the job for HT.
If you want to save money, the P363 is a good bet. Great on-axis and off-axis measurements is the cornerstone of all Harman speakers, including the $22,000 Salon2 and $75,000 JBL Synthesis Everest.

The P363 will get you very clear sound and good soundstage and image.

I used to own the P362 in my 18' x 20' family room w/ my Denon 3312 w/o ext amps They can play very loud and clear w/o blowing up. I've played them for house parties. No problems. The key is having capable subs! Set speakers to Small, XO @ 80Hz, and let the subs do all the heavy lifting.

Yes, you are right, for movies all of them kinda sound about the same, except for the bass. biggrin.gif

Believe your ears, not other people's ears. But you know that.

For the bass, the difference will be pure output. Did you see that list of sub outputs I compiled? biggrin.gif

Sure, the P363 won't sound like Salon2. But the P363 still sound very clear and loud and good to me, even when compared to my Salon2 and other speakers.
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post #5 of 76 Old 05-19-2013, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sid369 View Post

while having the power handling to take on some explosive scenes.
Any inputs?

Having not seen a budget nor knowing the price of the speakers you mentioned, I'd suggest going all horns if possible.  I think the Klipsch LaScala is a fantastc cost/performance speaker (buying used)

 

You get the hair trigger dynamics of an all horn system.  If you want to push it further, you can easily modify the LaScala and take it to a 2-way speaker utilizing a 2" driver for the mids/highs.

 

Add a couple Danley DTS-10 subwoofers and just try to wipe the smile off your face.

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post #6 of 76 Old 05-19-2013, 10:01 AM
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Keep in mind that there is a synergy between loudspeakers and amplifiers. This is ignored by a lot of people, and leads to a lot of bad purchases and unhappiness. Some speakers are easier to drive than others, and some receivers are very limited as to what kinds of speakers they will drive satisfactorily. Getting them matched up is absolutely essentlal for a good result.

That means that when demo-ing speakers, it is a big mistake to listen to them with a different amplifier or receiver than your own. The results will be deceptive in many cases. You can't just assume that any speaker matches up well with your receiver or amplifier. A great speaker can sound like crap with the wrong unit driving it.

I suggest that you listen to the PSB Image T6 speakers, which are some of the best you can get for under $1800 IMO.

The KEF Q700 is also an excellent speaker, but most home theater receivers will not drive them well because they require more peak current than most HT receivers can deliver. The choice of amplifier/ receiver to work well with them will be limiting.

The Image T6 speakers are much easier to drive, and will match up well with a lot of receivers and amplifiers. What receiver are you using, by the way? It would help to know.

The ONLY way I will buy speakers is to demo them first in my home with my amplifier. Your home's acoustics and amplifier/receiver need to be part of the system when auditioning if you want to be sure to be satisfied with your choice. Ignore this at your peril.

The alternative, while not ideal, is to take your amplifier/receiver to the store for the speaker audition. That will help a lot.

If a dealer will not cooperate with you and let you take speakers home for a trial, find another dealer!
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post #7 of 76 Old 05-19-2013, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Keep in mind that there is a synergy between loudspeakers and amplifiers. This is ignored by a lot of people, and leads to a lot of bad purchases and unhappiness.
Utter nonsense. Power is power. As long as you ave enough juice to drive your speakers and it's not an ultra cheap amp you're fine.
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post #8 of 76 Old 05-19-2013, 10:12 AM
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I'm running 684's in a 2.1 system (Klipsch rw-12d), so I'm a little biased. I love the 684's for music, and together with the sub they do quite nicely for movies. My listening position is on-axis so I'm running a phantom center with no issues whatsoever. The 600 series center that gets mixed reviews is the htm61. I haven't really heard much in the way of bad reviews for the htm62 (which pairs to the 684's). Speakers are such a personal choice that I recommend you get what sounds best to you, not what others on this forum recommend.
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post #9 of 76 Old 05-19-2013, 10:24 AM
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This comment shows a very low experience level.

Ask ANY reviewer at Stereophile, The Absolute Sound, Home Theater, or, any audio store owner with years of experience with speakers and amplifiers , and they will tell you I am 100% correct.

The peak current demands of many speakers are WAY beyond what many HT receivers can deliver, and that is why the manufacturers of almost all HT receivers give NO ratings for all five channels driven with a 4 ohm load.

It would be embarrassing if they gave you REAL power ratings of that kind which would expose how cheap and inadequate their power supplies are.

And that is why most HT receivers do not perform well with most good speakers.

It's pretty hard to have any realistic idea of what kind of REAL power is available when the only power ratings given by the manufacturer are deceptive, evasive, or non-existent, and that's all you get with most HT receivers.

The usual rating for two channels only at 8 ohms only is of almost no practical value, and anyone with half a brain should be able to see that. That tells you next to NOTHING about what power is REALLY available to drive most of the speakers that will really be used.

The fact is that most HT receivers HAVE ultra-cheap amplifiers and power supplies (especially anything you can buy for under $800 or so).

You don't get 5 channels of REAL amplification in a receiver with decent low-impedance power drive for prices under $1000, and only a fool would think so. You can't build it and sell it for that kind of low price.

The Cambridge 551R is the cheapest receiver I know of that actually WILL do a decent job of driving 5 good speakers, and it is a bargain at $1300.



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Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Utter nonsense. Power is power. As long as you ave enough juice to drive your speakers and it's not an ultra cheap amp you're fine.
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post #10 of 76 Old 05-19-2013, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Utter nonsense. Power is power. As long as you ave enough juice to drive your speakers and it's not an ultra cheap amp you're fine.

i wouldnt say nonsense, if you have a low impedance, low sensitivity speaker, a big room and an avr rated down to 6 ohm, you might actually run into distortion levels higher then you would expect. You could easely fried an amp with movie deep bass if you run your speaker full range.
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post #11 of 76 Old 05-19-2013, 10:53 AM
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You would be very unlikely to "fry" anything, but the sound quality will probably be poor due to distortion caused by inadequate amplifiers and power supplies.

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Originally Posted by RicardoJoa View Post

i wouldnt say nonsense, if you have a low impedance, low sensitivity speaker, a big room and an avr rated down to 6 ohm, you might actually run into distortion levels higher then you would expect. You could easely fried an amp with movie deep bass if you run your speaker full range.
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post #12 of 76 Old 05-19-2013, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

You would be very unlikely to "fry" anything, but the sound quality will probably be poor due to distortion caused by inadequate amplifiers and power supplies.

I did fried my older pioneer avr vsx series in full range mode playing laser disc movie. The speakers were rated nominal 6 ohm.
Maybe modern avr arent that easy to get deep fried due to protection mode.
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post #13 of 76 Old 05-19-2013, 12:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

This comment shows a very low experience level.

Ask ANY reviewer at Stereophile, The Absolute Sound, Home Theater, or, any audio store owner with years of experience with speakers and amplifiers , and they will tell you I am 100% correct.

The peak current demands of many speakers are WAY beyond what many HT receivers can deliver, and that is why the manufacturers of almost all HT receivers give NO ratings for all five channels driven with a 4 ohm load.

It would be embarrassing if they gave you REAL power ratings of that kind which would expose how cheap and inadequate their power supplies are.

And that is why most HT receivers do not perform well with most good speakers.

It's pretty hard to have any realistic idea of what kind of REAL power is available when the only power ratings given by the manufacturer are deceptive, evasive, or non-existent, and that's all you get with most HT receivers.

The usual rating for two channels only at 8 ohms only is of almost no practical value, and anyone with half a brain should be able to see that. That tells you next to NOTHING about what power is REALLY available to drive most of the speakers that will really be used.

The fact is that most HT receivers HAVE ultra-cheap amplifiers and power supplies (especially anything you can buy for under $800 or so).

You don't get 5 channels of REAL amplification in a receiver with decent low-impedance power drive for prices under $1000, and only a fool would think so. You can't build it and sell it for that kind of low price.

The Cambridge 551R is the cheapest receiver I know of that actually WILL do a decent job of driving 5 good speakers, and it is a bargain at $1300.

I have 14 years in the CE industry. I'm a THX level II certified a/v integrator who owns a firm designing anything from small family room systems to large, cost-no-object theaters, automated homes, and golf simulators. I work with brands like Parasound, Revel, Yamaha, Marantz, JBL Synthesis, and dozens more every day and am factory trained by these brands.

"Synergy" between components is nonsense. While the laws of physics do apply to electronics, the notion that there is some sort of preordained attraction between an amplifier and a speaker from anything other than a specific design to do so ( a rar occurrence) is asinine. Are some amplifiers bad for some speakers & vice-versa? Yes. But that is due to engineering choice/circumstance on both ends, not cosmic forces of attraction that allows some equipment to perform better/worse due to that specific pairing over another "like" amp or speaker .

As far as receivers go, they are all very similar when it comes to basics. But the similarities stop when it comes to custom integration features, amplifier impedance, durability, etc. These feature differences, to me, are what I look for in a receiver line and can set some apart from others. Yamaha has come out with some incredible pieces in their Aventage line and even the upper range of their standard line. Those Yamaha receiver amplifiers are stable down to 2ohms and are rated that way. Marantz, on the other hand for example, are 8ohm receivers and can't handle 4ohm reliably. Receiver brands, however, take turns at being king of the hill. It varies every few years.
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post #14 of 76 Old 05-19-2013, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

If you want to save money, the P363 is a good bet. Great on-axis and off-axis measurements is the cornerstone of all Harman speakers, including the $22,000 Salon2 and $75,000 JBL Synthesis Everest.

The P363 will get you very clear sound and good soundstage and image.

I used to own the P362 in my 18' x 20' family room w/ my Denon 3312 w/o ext amps They can play very loud and clear w/o blowing up. I've played them for house parties. No problems. The key is having capable subs! Set speakers to Small, XO @ 80Hz, and let the subs do all the heavy lifting.

Yes, you are right, for movies all of them kinda sound about the same, except for the bass. biggrin.gif

Believe your ears, not other people's ears. But you know that.

For the bass, the difference will be pure output. Did you see that list of sub outputs I compiled? biggrin.gif

Sure, the P363 won't sound like Salon2. But the P363 still sound very clear and loud and good to me, even when compared to my Salon2 and other speakers.

I know you have be recommending P363 and I should give them a try, but reading all the threads its some how become a psychological block that more expensive speakers will sound better. haha

I really liked the Paradigm Studio 60, and I have heard that their center channel is good too, don't know the exact model no.

Also really liked the B&W 683, but their matching center is not that great.

I think Focals 726 are great too, but for some reason I am trying to find a reason not to buy them, Could it be that i was disappointed when demoing a movie and i think the sub wasn't that great and could not feel the surrounds, whereas the studio 60 sounded great, but the monitor 11 sounded underwhlemed.

Keep in mind that I will be also listening to music, but that will be less important that movies.

Receiver will be Pioneer SC- 1522K
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post #15 of 76 Old 05-19-2013, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlexMulti View Post

I have 14 years in the CE industry. I'm a THX level II certified a/v integrator who owns a firm designing anything from small family room systems to large, cost-no-object theaters, automated homes, and golf simulators. I work with brands like Parasound, Revel, Yamaha, Marantz, JBL Synthesis, and dozens more every day and am factory trained by these brands.

"Synergy" between components is nonsense. While the laws of physics do apply to electronics, the notion that there is some sort of preordained attraction between an amplifier and a speaker from anything other than a specific design to do so ( a rar occurrence) is asinine. Are some amplifiers bad for some speakers & vice-versa? Yes. But that is due to engineering choice/circumstance on both ends, not cosmic forces of attraction that allows some equipment to perform better/worse due to that specific pairing over another "like" amp or speaker .

As far as receivers go, they are all very similar when it comes to basics. But the similarities stop when it comes to custom integration features, amplifier impedance, durability, etc. These feature differences, to me, are what I look for in a receiver line and can set some apart from others. Yamaha has come out with some incredible pieces in their Aventage line and even the upper range of their standard line. Those Yamaha receiver amplifiers are stable down to 2ohms and are rated that way. Marantz, on the other hand for example, are 8ohm receivers and can't handle 4ohm reliably. Receiver brands, however, take turns at being king of the hill. It varies every few years.

I have an older non hdmi marantz avr that i use to power my speakers. A couple months ago, i bought a newer avr from onkyo for my dad. When i hook them up to the same speakers , they sounded suprisinly bad compare to the oldet marantz. I really do think there is a difference between avr, even people claim that they all sound pretty much the same.
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post #16 of 76 Old 05-19-2013, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post


The KEF Q700 is also an excellent speaker, but most home theater receivers will not drive them well because they require more peak current than most HT receivers can deliver. The choice of amplifier/ receiver to work well with them will be limiting.

The Image T6 speakers are much easier to drive, and will match up well with a lot of receivers and amplifiers.

Care to quantify this statement? The Kef are 8 ohm 89dB sensitivity, the PSB 6 ohm 91dB. While it's well-known that you like to push those PSB speakers, you should probably find a more accurate argument for doing so.

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post #17 of 76 Old 05-19-2013, 12:32 PM
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The answer is NO. I'm just using 5.1 that I bought for 50. And I'm enjoying it a lot for my home theater. you don't need an expensive speakers. Just my 0.2 cents.

Panasonic 60VT60
Energy RC 70 fronts
Energy RC LCR center
Energy RC LCR surrounds
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post #18 of 76 Old 05-19-2013, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlexMulti View Post

"Synergy" between components is nonsense. While the laws of physics do apply to electronics, the notion that there is some sort of preordained attraction between an amplifier and a speaker from anything other than a specific design to do so ( a rar occurrence) is asinine. Are some amplifiers bad for some speakers & vice-versa? Yes. But that is due to engineering choice/circumstance on both ends, not cosmic forces of attraction that allows some equipment to perform better/worse due to that specific pairing over another "like" amp or speaker.

I can't believe I'm wading-in to the middle of this nonsense; but I guess sometimes, it takes someone with no horse in the race...to see the forest through the trees.

I don't see, where commsysman...ever eluded to magic, "pre-ordained attraction", nor "cosmic forces". He said..."some speakers are easier to drive than others...and some receivers are limited, in their ability to drive difficult speakers". I'm paraphrasing, ever so slightly; but lest you think I'm changing the intent of his statement, please see below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Keep in mind that there is a synergy between loudspeakers and amplifiers. This is ignored by a lot of people, and leads to a lot of bad purchases and unhappiness. Some speakers are easier to drive than others, and some receivers are very limited as to what kinds of speakers they will drive satisfactorily. Getting them matched up is absolutely essentlal for a good result.

I guess some people see "synergy", and see red...right away. But surely...as a tech with 14 years in the CE industry; you cannot completely disagree with those 2 suppositions...can you?
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post #19 of 76 Old 05-19-2013, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Utter nonsense. Power is power. As long as you ave enough juice to drive your speakers and it's not an ultra cheap amp you're fine.

It's like a broken record, isn't it?

Some people think 20 lbs of metal is heavier than 40 lbs of paper. biggrin.gif

And somehow a 69WPC measured Cambridge AVR has more power output than a 96WPC measured Denon AVR.

Nothing we could say would make sense to them. Ever. biggrin.gif

Cambridge 551:
Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 1% distortion at 111.3 watts
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 1% distortion at 81.2 watts
Seven channels driven con- tinuously into 8-ohm loads: 1% distortion at 69.4 watts

Denon 3312:
Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 1% distortion at 143.3 watts
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 1% distortion at 103.0 watts
Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 1% distortion at 96.8 watts
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post #20 of 76 Old 05-19-2013, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlexMulti View Post

I have 14 years in the CE industry. I'm a THX level II certified a/v integrator who owns a firm designing anything from small family room systems to large, cost-no-object theaters, automated homes, and golf simulators. I work with brands like Parasound, Revel, Yamaha, Marantz, JBL Synthesis, and dozens more every day and am factory trained by these brands.

"Synergy" between components is nonsense. While the laws of physics do apply to electronics, the notion that there is some sort of preordained attraction between an amplifier and a speaker from anything other than a specific design to do so ( a rar occurrence) is asinine. Are some amplifiers bad for some speakers & vice-versa? Yes. But that is due to engineering choice/circumstance on both ends, not cosmic forces of attraction that allows some equipment to perform better/worse due to that specific pairing over another "like" amp or speaker .

As far as receivers go, they are all very similar when it comes to basics. But the similarities stop when it comes to custom integration features, amplifier impedance, durability, etc. These feature differences, to me, are what I look for in a receiver line and can set some apart from others. Yamaha has come out with some incredible pieces in their Aventage line and even the upper range of their standard line. Those Yamaha receiver amplifiers are stable down to 2ohms and are rated that way. Marantz, on the other hand for example, are 8ohm receivers and can't handle 4ohm reliably. Receiver brands, however, take turns at being king of the hill. It varies every few years.

I didnt know that "dynamic power"rating are supposed to be consider stable.
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post #21 of 76 Old 05-19-2013, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RicardoJoa View Post

I have an older non hdmi marantz avr that i use to power my speakers. A couple months ago, i bought a newer avr from onkyo for my dad. When i hook them up to the same speakers , they sounded suprisinly bad compare to the oldet marantz. I really do think there is a difference between avr, even people claim that they all sound pretty much the same.

Yes different receivers can sound different - but the majority of the difference has to do with the preamp/surround processor/calibration system, vs. the amplification.

Edit: plus "sounds bad" can be very subjective - possible that the newer AVR, as setup, was more "accurate", but your ears preferred / were used to less accurate (not judging what is better, what you like is what matters, and purely hypothetical).
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post #22 of 76 Old 05-19-2013, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sid369 View Post

I know you have be recommending P363 and I should give them a try, but reading all the threads its some how become a psychological block that more expensive speakers will sound better. haha

I really liked the Paradigm Studio 60, and I have heard that their center channel is good too, don't know the exact model no.

Also really liked the B&W 683, but their matching center is not that great.

I think Focals 726 are great too, but for some reason I am trying to find a reason not to buy them, Could it be that i was disappointed when demoing a movie and i think the sub wasn't that great and could not feel the surrounds, whereas the studio 60 sounded great, but the monitor 11 sounded underwhlemed.

Keep in mind that I will be also listening to music, but that will be less important that movies.

Receiver will be Pioneer SC- 1522K
Think "diminishing returns".

The question is, will the diminutive improvement be worth YOUR money?

Just listen to some more speakers, especially more expensive models. Also pay attention to the AVR hooked to them. Then compare to the P363 and the models you've already auditioned.

There are a lot of factors to consider besides just sound quality because a lot of speakers may all sound pretty good to you, as you have already experienced. Cost is always big. But what about name brand, prestige, aesthetic, where they are made, speaker measurements, etc?

Just be careful what you read online. There is so much hearsay and absurdity to filter through. biggrin.gif

Higher end speakers may sound "better". But lower end speakers like the Infinity or Pioneer will still sound good.
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post #23 of 76 Old 05-19-2013, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

Yes different receivers can sound different - but the majority of the difference has to do with the preamp/surround processor/calibration system, vs. the amplification.

Edit: plus "sounds bad" can be very subjective - possible that the newer AVR, as setup, was more "accurate", but your ears preferred / were used to less accurate (not judging what is better, what you like is what matters, and purely hypothetical).
No calibration needed in pured direct mode. If accuracy means grainy highs and lack of bass then i sure will take my old avr.
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post #24 of 76 Old 05-19-2013, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Think "diminishing returns".

The question is, will the diminutive improvement be worth YOUR money?

Just listen to some more speakers, especially more expensive models. Also pay attention to the AVR hooked to them. Then compare to the P363 and the models you've already auditioned.

There are a lot of factors to consider besides just sound quality because a lot of speakers may all sound pretty good to you, as you have already experienced. Cost is always big. But what about name brand, prestige, aesthetic, where they are made, speaker measurements, etc?

Just be careful what you read online. There is so much hearsay and absurdity to filter through. biggrin.gif

Higher end speakers may sound "better". But lower end speakers like the Infinity or Pioneer will still sound good.

I think that is the difficult part, once i set my mind to a set of speakers and then try to read on them, someone make a comment and makes me wonder, do I really want to spend this kinda money when someone is saying its not good.

For example, people say B&W are good but you can do better with the same money, Paradigms - they are too forward and not good until you get to their studio line, focals - again forward but not good in the midrange etc etc etc.

There is not one that i have seen people recommend that is consistent. Then there is the center channel to think about, so far between the Focal, B&W and the Paradigms, one conclusion that I have been able to make is that the paradigm center is the best amongst the 3 brands listed above.

I have yet to listen to the infinity primes series.

B&W 684 tome sounded good, then I read comments like they are good fro classical and jazz but not for rock and roll etc.

Would I even hear the difference since i will be playing poor guilty streaming spottily music.

I think to me the Studio 60 looks great, then focla 726 and lastly B&W 683.
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post #25 of 76 Old 05-19-2013, 01:43 PM
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Believe me, I know how you feel. There are so many choices when it comes to speakers that it's overwhelming. It sounds as if you're reaching the point where analysis paralysis kicks in. Narrow it down to a few and then go with your gut. There is no absolute right choice. You can read the forums until your eyes bleed and you will not get a consensus. I can pretty much guarantee that with the speakers you're considering you will not be disappointed in whatever you choose.
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post #26 of 76 Old 05-19-2013, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by sid369 View Post

I think that is the difficult part, once i set my mind to a set of speakers and then try to read on them, someone make a comment and makes me wonder, do I really want to spend this kinda money when someone is saying its not good.

If you don't buy the speakers and amps they like, then it's either crap or "you could do better", right? biggrin.gif

You'll just have to selectively read from people you think you believe and just ignore the ones you don't. wink.gif

Just keep on reading AVS and AH and you'll see who those people are. biggrin.gif

Yeah, better just keep on auditioning. wink.gif

It's a balancing act for sure. smile.gif
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Originally Posted by RicardoJoa View Post

I have an older non hdmi marantz avr that i use to power my speakers. A couple months ago, i bought a newer avr from onkyo for my dad. When i hook them up to the same speakers , they sounded suprisinly bad compare to the oldet marantz. I really do think there is a difference between avr, even people claim that they all sound pretty much the same.

Receiver lines, as with all electronic manufacturing, changes over the years. Some of the lines will sit on top of the hill for a few years at a time. Denon was making incredible gear through most of the last decade. Now, It's not really holding that position as the best anymore from top to bottom. Onkyo has taken a complete nose dive, similar to Yamaha's from several years ago. Yamaha's last model cycle and this one coming up have been very very good, however, while Onkyo still makes junk on a lot of levels. Their top of the top end is still viable, but so is everyone else's.

Global manufacturing and a lot of shuffling through companies causes things to be less than consistent which is why you might like a receiver from a few years ago over a modern one. It depends on price point as well and the fact that you used to get a lot for your money while today the entry level is getting worse and worse.

All receivers, in general, sound similar from the stand point of what types of speakers they can handle and what they can do with them. I just did an A/B (with 3 completely different types of bookshelf speakers) with a Denon 1911 and a Yamaha 730 and the difference was immediately apparent on each pair. One sounded heavy/laborous (Denon), the other lighter (Yamaha). Neither clipped, neither lacked bass or caused the speakers to muddy or sound thin. So, if I were to say either would work fine with the typical to large book shelf speaker I would be correct. If I were asked which I preferred I would say the Yamaha, particularly at loud volumes in a large room.

FWIW, the speakers I used to compare were:

- Phase Technology PC 0.5
- JBL Synthesis LS40
- BG Radia Z1

Speakers pulled out 3' from the back wall, and 10' apart. Room was roughly 2,250 square feet with 10' high ceilings. Source material was The Dark Knight BluRay, GT5 on PS3, Various music streamed through Nuvo Wireless.
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post #28 of 76 Old 05-19-2013, 02:39 PM
 
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I didnt know that "dynamic power"rating are supposed to be consider stable.

That's not why I said they are stable to 2 ohm loads. I said they were because they are.
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post #29 of 76 Old 05-19-2013, 02:58 PM
 
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I can't believe I'm wading-in to the middle of this nonsense; but I guess sometimes, it takes someone with no horse in the race...to see the forest through the trees.

I don't see, where commsysman...ever eluded to magic, "pre-ordained attraction", nor "cosmic forces". He said..."some speakers are easier to drive than others...and some receivers are limited, in their ability to drive difficult speakers". I'm paraphrasing, ever so slightly; but lest you think I'm changing the intent of his statement, please see below.
I guess some people see "synergy", and see red...right away. But surely...as a tech with 14 years in the CE industry; you cannot completely disagree with those 2 suppositions...can you?

I agree with you & commsysman's bold you quoted, but that's not what he meant by the term. You might need to read more of commsysman's other posts in other threads smile.gif

"Synergy" between audio components is an old audioPHOOL/sales term designed to mystify and take some of the science out of it. While I'll be one of the first in line with those who will say that measurements and spec sheets can't and don't explain everything going on in the audio chain, I will say that there is nothing going on outside of good, solid parts, good manufacturing practices, and engineering as to why some equipment is better than others.

Also, to define Synergy for those who maybe don't know the actual definition:

The interaction of multiple elements in a system to produce an effect different from or greater than the sum of their individual effects.

The term by it's very nature is absurd to use with a/v equipment unless one is referring to something outside of the scientifically explainable, thus my use of "cosmic forces".
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post #30 of 76 Old 05-19-2013, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by RicardoJoa View Post

i wouldnt say nonsense, if you have a low impedance, low sensitivity speaker, a big room and an avr rated down to 6 ohm, you might actually run into distortion levels higher then you would expect. You could easely fried an amp with movie deep bass if you run your speaker full range.
That's why I said as long as you have enough power and have an amp to match the impedane you're fine. You don't need an expensive boutique amp, power is power.

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