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post #31 of 49 Old 05-25-2013, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Alright, so now I have an idea of what speakers to look at.

Now about the receiver and sub.
Does the power output of the receiver matter? If so, is 80W/ch good enough?
The reason I ask is my htib says 1000W but the output is almost never loud enough for me. I realize the actual loudness is related to the amplifier power and the speaker sensitivity. But for an average sensitivity, how much power do I need if I am doing a 2.1 or 3.1 setup.
Right now I am leaning toward the Denon AVR-1713 I mentioned earlier because it has all the other features that I need at a reasonable price point ($300 on electronics expo).

There were two Klipsch subs suggested earlier. Do these not have the negative characteristics of the Klipsch mains?
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post #32 of 49 Old 05-25-2013, 03:50 PM
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Denon 1713 should be enough unless you have large output requirements.

I have a 1712 which powers my p363's just fine. You need double the wattage for 3db increase. 9db is perceived double loudness.

At this price point I feel spending lot of money on an receiver or separate amp is a waste. Also don't believe specs on wattage. Each manufacturer measures then differently.
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post #33 of 49 Old 05-25-2013, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
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If there are no objections or better suggestions, I am going to buy the Denon 1713.
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post #34 of 49 Old 05-25-2013, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsoundar16 View Post

There were two Klipsch subs suggested earlier. Do these not have the negative characteristics of the Klipsch mains?

The sub is just one big woofer. No horn tweeter to worry about.
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post #35 of 49 Old 05-25-2013, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsoundar16 View Post

If there are no objections or better suggestions, I am going to buy the Denon 1713.

This is the route I just went with, Denon 1713, Klipsch R12D sub (just connected them today) and the rest of the speakers are on the way to me.

For now I just connected my 20 year old crappy KLH's and did a manual set up on the AVR and I must say, the sub is the hart and soul of the audio in my 30' x 14' x 10'H family room! The power from this AVR if fine but the added 340watts from the sub makes is huge difference......just ask my neighbors!

As for the power from the AVR, you will find that all depends on the quality of music, for example when I run sound from my cable box, w/o HDMI, just component out, to get full sound I have to be in the 70%+ volume range, with music if I have an old 25 y.o. CD, I have to be in the 60%+ volume as well but when I use something modern, where the recording and my recording file is high quality, then at 45% volume I'm in the comfy range, so all is relative.

TV Pan TC-P60GT50, Denon AVR-1713, Front towers BA A360, Center BA A225C, Surround BA XS Satellite, Sub Klipsch RW12D, Blu-ray player Sony BDP-S5100, Ethereal Power Manager 2000.
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post #36 of 49 Old 05-26-2013, 06:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tampa frank View Post

The sub is just one big woofer. No horn tweeter to worry about.
Makes sense. Thanks.
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Originally Posted by ElectroMike View Post

This is the route I just went with, Denon 1713, Klipsch R12D sub (just connected them today) and the rest of the speakers are on the way to me.
Do you mean Klipsch RW12D? Or is there another one called R12D?
And thanks for info about the volume levels.

Newegg and the Klipsch website say the Klipsch RW12D is discontinued but amazon still has them. I think I saw these at Fry's.
I will take a listen to the Klipsch RW12D and the BIC F12. Any other suggestions for the subs?
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post #37 of 49 Old 05-26-2013, 09:50 AM
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Yes, RW-12D!

TV Pan TC-P60GT50, Denon AVR-1713, Front towers BA A360, Center BA A225C, Surround BA XS Satellite, Sub Klipsch RW12D, Blu-ray player Sony BDP-S5100, Ethereal Power Manager 2000.
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post #38 of 49 Old 05-26-2013, 11:11 AM
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The rw12d is highly recommended at its price point for its ability to have great bass extension compared to competitors. If you can get for around $300 or under, it is what I would go with.

I went with my bic f12 because of size concerns, but it is also a good sub for its price point if getting under$200
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post #39 of 49 Old 05-26-2013, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsoundar16 View Post


I see a Denon AVR-1713 for $340 on amazon and it has MultEQ XT. Otherwise the 616 looks pretty equivalent to my untrained eye. Anything else I should consider?
I understand the energy takes are probably good value, but I don't mind going beyond the point of diminishing returns to get something marginally better.
Thanks for your recommendations. I have a bunch of other devices that stream music but sometimes it doesn't really save you money to not a have feature. From looking around, it looks like a lot of the decent receivers have network streaming.
.

Most newer receivers you can add a wifi dongle so are capable of streaming. The dongles are becoming obselete and the the wifi and bluetooth are starting to be onboard. There are some pretty large differences between the 1713 and the 616. Starting off one is a 7.2 and the other is a 5.1. I'm setting up my 616 as a threezone set up while the 1713 isn't capable of that. Most 7.1 and 7.2's will have at least two powered zones while you have to go way up in price to get a third unpowered or powered in general. The second powered zone power comes from the extra two channels in a 7.1 system so you aren't really getting much since it's simple for manufacurers to do this. The 616, aside from the 2eq, compares to much higher priced receivers. For fun take a look at this video comparing the 616 to a couple models up Denon. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&cad=rja&ved=0CGIQtwIwCA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DS_ZNG-s6K_E&ei=0luiUdEopP7gA-LpgJAO&usg=AFQjCNFUtsBG0cVo1GayqD-IaOJQCjbIdA&bvm=bv.47008514,d.dmg

Going from a 9 year old Phillips HITB 5.2 (two subs) system to the 616 with the Energy Takes is such a massive step up, I'm living fine without the better Audyssey. The extra features personally trumped the sub equalization I did not get. My sub placement helps a lot. I'll also mention that the 616 is TXHplus2 certified for what that is worth, again generally on higher end receivers.

As for the Energy Takes, you hit it on the head....they are a good value speaker but not what you'd want if you had a bit more freedom of design. My wife hates, hates, hates all things audio/video/technology and so this whole set up was a compromise to get some better sound but not spend a bunch of money. We have a very large home and for some reason she is of the opinion that she has the say for every single room in the house. I can't tell you how many fights we've had over the installation of this system and the time I spend doing it. I had to wire everything far away from the family room which was a lengthy pain. I'm just lucky that she is allowing me to have anything in the house as sad as that sounds. Given all my plans and the circumstances, I'm happy with the 616. As crazy as it sounds though, if I had problems with the 616, of the three Onkyo warranty repair shops in a several state radius, one is right up the street from me. so I have a fall back plan. A lot of thought and planning went into which receiver I chose.
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post #40 of 49 Old 05-26-2013, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
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jkust, right now I'm only thinking about a 2.1 or 3.1 system. Probably the max I will go to is 5.1, so having 7.2 doesn't really buy me anything. Also, I don't think I will use the 2nd zone, ever. The other rooms that I would consider putting speakers in are just too far away. But most importantly, I'm a little put off by the reliability issues mentioned in other threads about the onkyo which is why I am probably going to stick with the Denon. But thanks for the comparison.
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post #41 of 49 Old 05-26-2013, 04:59 PM
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Not to be negative but that review sounds like it full of bias. The denon has Audyssey MultEQ XT, whereas the onkyo has 2EQ which is the lowest form of EQ that audyssey has. Audyssey might not be perfect but for most people it can do a much better job improving sound quality than they can. Especially considering very few people that buy audio equipment actually have measuring equipment and know how to use it. For that alone I think the denon is the winner. Now the build of the onkyo does look superior. Both seem to provide the same power to speakers +- 5 watts. Neither certifies 4 ohm loads. The big win for Onkyo that I gather from the review is that Onkyo can stream 192k/24 bit audio while the Denon cannot.
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post #42 of 49 Old 05-27-2013, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsoundar16 View Post

jkust, right now I'm only thinking about a 2.1 or 3.1 system. Probably the max I will go to is 5.1, so having 7.2 doesn't really buy me anything. Also, I don't think I will use the 2nd zone, ever. The other rooms that I would consider putting speakers in are just too far away. But most importantly, I'm a little put off by the reliability issues mentioned in other threads about the onkyo which is why I am probably going to stick with the Denon. But thanks for the comparison.

The 616 is going to be overkill then for you. My plans include three zones (which i'm in the middle of wiring) and the second hdmi output goes to the kitchen tv. I generally will use most of the 616's functions so needed features and can live without MultiEQ. I was definitely put off by the reliability issues as well and am glad I didn't let a ton of early reviews and a good bit of user firmware update errors and some early bumbles by Onkyo (they figured out you can't update some of the firmware via wireless but people didn't know that and tried anyway) dissuade me. It was a bit like buying a new car only for the early buyers to get hit with all kinds of reliability issues that were solved later. Early people got screwed and far more late buyers didn't. It's hard to really empathize when everything has worked as intended. To get to the next step up where you can input digital sources to zone 2 and 3 (sadly most midlevel avr's can't do this), I'd have had to make a huge jump price wise.

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Originally Posted by Petden View Post

Not to be negative but that review sounds like it full of bias. The denon has Audyssey MultEQ XT, whereas the onkyo has 2EQ which is the lowest form of EQ that audyssey has. Audyssey might not be perfect but for most people it can do a much better job improving sound quality than they can. Especially considering very few people that buy audio equipment actually have measuring equipment and know how to use it. For that alone I think the denon is the winner. Now the build of the onkyo does look superior. Both seem to provide the same power to speakers +- 5 watts. Neither certifies 4 ohm loads. The big win for Onkyo that I gather from the review is that Onkyo can stream 192k/24 bit audio while the Denon cannot.


I don't know about the bias probably because they say everything I wanted to hear when I was searching. I mean they even dinged the build quality and board quality. Isn't there one lower version Audyssey known as just' 'EQ' from the Audyssey site? Presuming that is an outdated version that they still represent on their own site? I generally need and want a ton of options on my stuff and usually there is some compromise.
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post #43 of 49 Old 05-27-2013, 04:30 PM
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The internet direct companies (Acsend, Hsu, etc) offer in home trials, so returning shouldn't be a hassle.

Make sure to consider the cost of the stands when comparing bookshelf speakers to towers. The Ascend stands are an additional $140.

I like Dark Side of the Moon to try speakers out, but I guess that it really depends on what you listen to. Try the speakers with music that you are very familiar with.

"Welcome to the Machine" on Wish You Were Here sounds fantastic on my new Klipsch P series speakers, I never felt that base line before, on ANY speaker!

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post #44 of 49 Old 05-28-2013, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the suggestions so far.

I was pretty sure I was going to buy the Klipsch RW-12D but it looks like it's been discontinued (on the Klipsch website) and out of stock on newegg. Maybe I will go hunting for it in my local stores.
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post #45 of 49 Old 05-28-2013, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
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I went to a best buy store with the magnolia home theater section and listened to a pair of B&W 684s. I was really amazed by the sound. They sound much better than all the stuff I have been listening to. But they were also about twice as expensive.

Now my question: should I adjust my budget (and delay my purchase slightly) to accommodate $1000 speakers? Will I really notice that much of a difference in my house?

Also, I couldn't find the Klipsch RW-12D subs anywhere, so any ideas on the sub would be appreciated.
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post #46 of 49 Old 05-28-2013, 07:59 PM
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you have the buy the RW-12d from newegg.com. If its out of stock right now it'll be back in a week or two. They have it on sale under $300 frequently.

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post #47 of 49 Old 05-28-2013, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsoundar16 View Post

I went to a best buy store with the magnolia home theater section and listened to a pair of B&W 684s. I was really amazed by the sound. They sound much better than all the stuff I have been listening to. But they were also about twice as expensive.

Now my question: should I adjust my budget (and delay my purchase slightly) to accommodate $1000 speakers? Will I really notice that much of a difference in my house?

Also, I couldn't find the Klipsch RW-12D subs anywhere, so any ideas on the sub would be appreciated.

If the b&w 684 sounded that amazing to you, then it might sound good in your home too. Will it be worth the money? That is for you to decide, there is diminishing returns in audio. Also, just because one speaker costs much more than another, doesn't mean it's better.

You will never know until you get it in your home and listen for awhile to figure out what you really want. Keep listening to more speakers or listen more critically to the b&w's if you are still unsure.
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post #48 of 49 Old 05-29-2013, 06:33 PM
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B&W 600 series can often be found used at places like Audiogon wink.gif
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post #49 of 49 Old 05-29-2013, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csgamer View Post

If the b&w 684 sounded that amazing to you, then it might sound good in your home too. Will it be worth the money? That is for you to decide, there is diminishing returns in audio. Also, just because one speaker costs much more than another, doesn't mean it's better.

You will never know until you get it in your home and listen for awhile to figure out what you really want. Keep listening to more speakers or listen more critically to the b&w's if you are still unsure.

+1 Very good advice!

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