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post #31 of 51 Old 06-10-2013, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Awenta View Post

About 35 feet will be my long runs. What I meant was what will physically fit into the speaker inputs since they're spring clamps.

I haven't measured but if I can fit them, would the RLSII be better than RSSII for surrounds? Or would the bi-directional arrangement of the RSS be better?

Also , I might as well open this can of worms. Solid or stranded wire? I've read plenty on both but nothing too conclusive. It wouldn't make a difference because my runs are relatively short. But just curious on opinions.
The spring terminals should fit 12 gauge just fine. Solid or stranded, it won't make any difference in sound. Stranded is more flexible and easier to work with.

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post #32 of 51 Old 06-11-2013, 05:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

The spring terminals should fit 12 gauge just fine. Solid or stranded, it won't make any difference in sound. Stranded is more flexible and easier to work with.

I'm going to do 10 gauge. If I need to I'll cut off some strands at the end.
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

If you can fit the RLS II's I'd use them as surrounds instead. That way you'll really be ready for object-oriented audio, which is far more directional and may not work as well with speakers that try to diffuse the sound. Plus, the surround mixing calls for greater frequency response capabilities for the surround speakers.

Also great if you ever play multi-channel music discs.

That's good. I think that's the route I will go. The tall narrow profile actually work better than the square RSS. I wish I could fit an RLS II for the center channel. But it won't. I will have to stick with the UIW75.

I chose a brickwall surge protector.

Think I will need to use an amplifier for the speakers?
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post #33 of 51 Old 06-11-2013, 10:01 PM
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10 gauge is way overkill for only a 35 foot run. Unless you're pumping in in excess of 5000w. I've got an EP4000 pushing 2500W over 45 feet and it does it just fine. Having to pull strands off the 10 gauge effectively reduces the gauge of the wire down anyway. Kind of defeats the whole purpose of having the 10 gauge wire doesn't it?

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post #34 of 51 Old 06-12-2013, 12:57 AM
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Yeah, 12 gauge is fine for just about any normal install.

I forget if you mentioned your receiver model. If it has a full set of pre-amp outputs, I would definitely consider power amps and not rely on the built in receiver amps (they're puny by comparison). Parasound Classic, Outlaw Audio, and Emotiva are good choices in the bang for the buck category. The RLS II's have up to 350 watt amp handling and the UIW 75 has up to 300 watt handling, according to the specs.

The Outlaw Model 7900 amp seems quite good. It just needs two separate dedicated 15 amp circuits. Made in the U.S.A. too. smile.gif

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post #35 of 51 Old 07-04-2013, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

I would try Definitive Technology's UIW line of in-walls for the price (especially their RLS models for the front L/R at least).

I am also looking into some in-walls as well, any input on the HIW-1 Horn In-Wall Speakers by HSU ?? I like the Def techs but not completely sure about my budget yet?
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post #36 of 51 Old 07-04-2013, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by roadking00 View Post

I am also looking into some in-walls as well, any input on the HIW-1 Horn In-Wall Speakers by HSU ?? I like the Def techs but not completely sure about my budget yet?

For a budget living room setup, I could see that these would be fine. Def. Tech UIW's and Triads, and the like, are more suited for mission critical main theater systems. Just remember, HSU sells the HIW-1 per boxed pair, so you'll end up with one spare (I guess it's not all bad, if one blows for some reason during a big movie night).

Any in-wall will need sufficient subwoofer support. Just the nature of the beast. Think of them like small to medium sized bookshelves in the wall.

If your space is tight, in-wall's can allow you to use an acoustically transparent screen without the requisite few extra feet necessary for boxed speakers/subs and a false wall.

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post #37 of 51 Old 07-04-2013, 09:05 PM
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mission critical main theater systems

Definitely on a mission here smile.gif looking seriously at the def techs on eBay right now, not a bad deal just a little weary with eBay still, guess it would be worth getting the square trade warranty.I have plenty of room in the LR 15' x 23,5' with 8' ceilings, planning on a good sub. Just want to make it a clean low profile room with the in walls and think in will be a little easier on the wife's decor...definitely don't wanna skimp out but the Triads are a bit out of my price range (have to many other things on the list to justify the cost) I plan on getting the L,R and C and possibly sub first then adding the surrounds later...doing this all over the next 12 months along with the 65" plasma mounted on the wall too... biggrin.gif
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post #38 of 51 Old 07-05-2013, 10:40 AM
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If you are wary, get the added warranty and look for sellers with a relatively high rating count and with a good overall satisfaction rating. They're probably getting their speakers from the same wholesalers as "official" Def Tech dealers.

The UIW RLS ii for the fronts would probably be the best... if you use an acoustic projection screen (not as expensive as you might believe... for example, Jamestown Home Theater screens with Seymour XD material), then go with three of those across the front. If you have to place a center below a flat panel, then the UIW 75 was made for that (also placed vertically).

Then you have to determine if you want direct radiating surrounds or bipolar and if your room config requires in-ceiling or the better in-wall varieties from the same Def Tech family.

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post #39 of 51 Old 07-05-2013, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

If you are wary, get the added warranty and look for sellers with a relatively high rating count and with a good overall satisfaction rating. They're probably getting their speakers from the same wholesalers as "official" Def Tech dealers.

The UIW RLS ii for the fronts would probably be the best... if you use an acoustic projection screen (not as expensive as you might believe... for example, Jamestown Home Theater screens with Seymour XD material), then go with three of those across the front. If you have to place a center below a flat panel, then the UIW 75 was made for that (also placed vertically).

Then you have to determine if you want direct radiating surrounds or bipolar and if your room config requires in-ceiling or the better in-wall varieties from the same Def Tech family.

Yeah I think I'll end up doing just that on eBay most likely, unfortunately I don't have the access anymore to get wires into the ceiling for a projector and the wife don't want nothing that extreme in our LR. So the place for a in wall center is best below the plasma? Thought above would be best? The room is set up well enough I believe to have in wall surrounds, my viewing seat would be roughly 14-16' from the TV which would leave roughly 6-8' from the rear wall to my ears.. ..should be fine I would hope?
Would I really be sacrificing that much sound quality with these in walls compared to mounted quality bookshelves speakers that a lot of folks mention?
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post #40 of 51 Old 07-05-2013, 08:19 PM
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Any thoughts or experience on using the UIW 55's,65's or 75's in certain combo's for 5.1 or is it definitely worth the extra $$ going with the RLSII's for the fronts L/R at a minimum or UIW RSS III ?
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post #41 of 51 Old 07-06-2013, 01:41 PM
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The biggest benefit with the RLS and RSS models is the built in backer box. Like putting a regular speaker in the wall rather than having the entire stud channel acting like an infinite baffle with an open-backed in-wall. Of course, since you're not using a projection system, you'd have to go with the open UIW 75 as a center with the RLS ii's as L/R.

Usually, it's better to place the center speaker under a wall hung TV. But without pictures to go by, we're using generalized rules.

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post #42 of 51 Old 07-06-2013, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

The biggest benefit with the RLS and RSS models is the built in backer box. Like putting a regular speaker in the wall rather than having the entire stud channel acting like an infinite baffle with an open-backed in-wall. Of course, since you're not using a projection system, you'd have to go with the open UIW 75 as a center with the RLS ii's as L/R.

Usually, it's better to place the center speaker under a wall hung TV. But without pictures to go by, we're using generalized rules.

Ahh, makes sense now...I was assuming all the def techs had the backer box...I guess if it would benefit the quality of the fronts I can box in a spot to fit the box horizontal below the TV? Major difference with dialog compared to the open back UIW 75? As far as pics they could be coming.... Still just in the planning research part.. .still have to by the plasma and mount it as well....
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post #43 of 51 Old 03-17-2014, 05:56 PM
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Sorry to reopen an older thread. Do you guys recommend the Definitive in-wall line for someone with Klipsch front setup?

Current Setup:
Harman Kardon AVR2650
2x Klipsch Icon KF-28 (dual 8" each)
Klipsch Reference RF-42 Center
Klipsch RW-12D Sub

Looking to add 2 in-wall and 2 in-ceiling speakers to complete a 7.1 channel setup. Budget is $800 for the 4 speakers.

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post #44 of 51 Old 03-17-2014, 06:27 PM
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Although matching rear channels is less important than the front 3, Klipsch and DT have very different personalities with regards to the sound they produce. I would try and get Klipsch for your rears as well.
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post #45 of 51 Old 03-17-2014, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoka View Post

Sorry to reopen an older thread. Do you guys recommend the Definitive in-wall line for someone with Klipsch front setup?

Current Setup:
Harman Kardon AVR2650
2x Klipsch Icon KF-28 (dual 8" each)
Klipsch Reference RF-42 Center
Klipsch RW-12D Sub

Looking to add 2 in-wall and 2 in-ceiling speakers to complete a 7.1 channel setup. Budget is $800 for the 4 speakers.

Think ahead. Object surround is on the way. You want timbre matched speakers all around. It is very important that you do so. Go with matched Klipsch in-walls that go with your fronts. Unless you absolutely have to, I would only use in-ceilings for height surround (top speakers) usage that will be a part of the new object sound formats.

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post #46 of 51 Old 03-19-2014, 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Think ahead. Object surround is on the way. You want timbre matched speakers all around. It is very important that you do so. Go with matched Klipsch in-walls that go with your fronts. Unless you absolutely have to, I would only use in-ceilings for height surround (top speakers) usage that will be a part of the new object sound formats.
Thanks for the response. I don't think my room setup (living room) is really going to go past 7.1. I have to go with ceiling speakers for rears since I don't have a back wall. I'm still debating whether I'll go to 7.1 or just stuck with a 5.1 setup.

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post #47 of 51 Old 03-19-2014, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by smoka View Post

Thanks for the response. I don't think my room setup (living room) is really going to go past 7.1. I have to go with ceiling speakers for rears since I don't have a back wall. I'm still debating whether I'll go to 7.1 or just stuck with a 5.1 setup.

Since you have this problem, I'd probably stick with 5.1 for now. Make sure the surrounds are still located in their side positions in case you do decide to add rear speakers. However, I would also pre-wire for at least a pair of stereo in-ceiling overhead (top) speakers. You don't have to cut holes yet (because the industry is still debating optimal object audio speaker placement), but have the wires ready to go (with extra cable length so you have placement options). Mark a spot where the cables are located, so you don't forget.

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post #48 of 51 Old 03-19-2014, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Since you have this problem, I'd probably stick with 5.1 for now. Make sure the surrounds are still located in their side positions in case you do decide to add rear speakers. However, I would also pre-wire for at least a pair of stereo in-ceiling overhead (top) speakers. You don't have to cut holes yet (because the industry is still debating optimal object audio speaker placement), but have the wires ready to go (with extra cable length so you have placement options). Mark a spot where the cables are located, so you don't forget.

Thanks Dan. This is a ground floor living room (2-story house), so getting to the walls will probably be easier through the crawl space than the ceiling (if I stick with 5.1). However, if I go with 7.1, I'll probably just run all surround wires through the ceiling.

I'll probably call someone in to get an estimate on the wiring job and go from there to decide between 5.1 & 7.1. But you're right, it will probably good to know what the optimal speaker position is since I plan to live in this house for 10-20 years and I would hate to try and patch up ceiling cuts down the line.

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post #49 of 51 Old 03-19-2014, 04:54 PM
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Thanks Dan. This is a ground floor living room (2-story house), so getting to the walls will probably be easier through the crawl space than the ceiling (if I stick with 5.1). However, if I go with 7.1, I'll probably just run all surround wires through the ceiling.

I'll probably call someone in to get an estimate on the wiring job and go from there to decide between 5.1 & 7.1. But you're right, it will probably good to know what the optimal speaker position is since I plan to live in this house for 10-20 years and I would hate to try and patch up ceiling cuts down the line.

No problem.

Just remember that the rear speakers in a 7.1 setup are still considered wall surround speakers. Object based audio adds an actual height element to create a 3D effect. Objects have metadata attached to them so that the decoder (renderer) can steer them all over the room depending on the instructions from the audio engineer who made the original mix. Some consumer object layouts have about 22 speakers (which become 22 individual "channels" that sound objects can be steered to), though not every room can handle them all. That's why speaker timbre matching is key.

There will be a re-mapping feature that will condense these mixes to whatever amount of speakers and positions you have. Though, it will work best with true overhead speakers (in addition to the "normal" speaker locations) that are individually wired and amped. If you use true in-ceilings for these height speakers, they probably should be aim-able to the main listening area, or set to fire at an angle, and not just simply straight down.

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post #50 of 51 Old 03-19-2014, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

No problem.

Just remember that the rear speakers in a 7.1 setup are still considered wall surround speakers. Object based audio adds an actual height element to create a 3D effect. Objects have metadata attached to them so that the decoder (renderer) can steer them all over the room depending on the instructions from the audio engineer who made the original mix. Some consumer object layouts have about 22 speakers (which become 22 individual "channels" that sound objects can be steered to), though not every room can handle them all. That's why speaker timbre matching is key.

There will be a re-mapping feature that will condense these mixes to whatever amount of speakers and positions you have. Though, it will work best with true overhead speakers (in addition to the "normal" speaker locations) that are individually wired and amped. If you use true in-ceilings for these height speakers, they probably should be aim-able to the main listening area, or set to fire at an angle, and not just simply straight down.

Ya, I was looking at the R-5502-W II or R-5650-W II the for the sides (5.1) and the CDT-5650-C II or CDT-5800-C II if I go with ceiling speakers. They all have tweeters to control the sound direction. I find the Klipsch Reference line a bit expensive, but the quality is far better than my previous Polk setup.

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post #51 of 51 Old 03-19-2014, 10:31 PM
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Ya, I was looking at the R-5502-W II or R-5650-W II the for the sides (5.1) and the CDT-5650-C II or CDT-5800-C II if I go with ceiling speakers. They all have tweeters to control the sound direction. I find the Klipsch Reference line a bit expensive, but the quality is far better than my previous Polk setup.

If they are supposed to sonically match up with the Klipsch in-room speakers you have now, I would do the R-5502-W II's for the side wall surrounds and the CDT-5800-C II's for the height/ceiling (top) surrounds. At least on paper, they have a little more mid bass to work with, which is good for object audio because the sound effects can have a bit more low frequency "kick" than before. Dolby Atmos specs., for instance, do recommend surrounds that at least go into the 40 Hz range.

There may be an option for surround speaker subwoofers too (controlled by bass management) because sound mixers are now encouraged to use full range sounds all around whenever possible for a more dramatic effect.

If these speakers have backer-box options, I recommend getting them. If they don't, there are tips available for making MDF boxes to fit your architectural speakers into (and then between the wall studs and the floor joists in the ceiling). It will help improve the sound due to having a full enclosure around the speakers, rather than creating an infinite baffle in an open stud wall if the back of the speaker drivers are exposed.

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