Completely lost: New Speakers, AVR, Sonos? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 120 Old 10-08-2013, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

The only reason I might go for a $1200-1300 Denon 4311 (MSRP $2100) or X4000 (MSRP $1300) is for the Audyssey XT32. biggrin.gif

I think Audyssey XT Dynamic EQ is wonderful for subwoofers and overall SQ.

The 3313/X3000 has Audyssey XT as well.

But Audyssey XT32 ***might *** be better.

Or maybe not. A friend of mine says he cannot tell the difference between XT32 vs. XT. So it depends on who says what. No surprise. biggrin.gif

Electronics Expo might get you a better price on X4000 if you call them on the phone. wink.gif

XT32 is only better than XT if it includes the dual Subwoofer EQ calibration feature. Not all XT32 compatible receivers have that extra add-on. The Denon X4000 does.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #92 of 120 Old 10-08-2013, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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In that case I believe I will actually go with the T2s and a Denon X3000 (or 3313 if there's a possibility in Switzerland). Big phonecall tomorrow smile.gif

I just read through my first posts in this thread, kinda funny coming from a 3k budget for a full 5.1 system (Paradigm Millenium) to a 4k speaker only budget. Noob's aiming high cool.gif

So, that leaves the finish, the sub and... cables.

Finish: Will have to sleep on it.
Sub: SVS PB12-NSD?
Cables: Will have to see if there's something like monoprice in Switzerland. What do I need to look out for?



Next item on the list will be the TV. But for that I should probably head over to the TV guys? The wall/white cabinet-thing is 2m/4.5ft wide, and viewing distance will be 4m/13ft to 4.5m/14.7ft

Panasonic 55" VT50
PSB Imagine T2 / SVS SB12
Denon X4000
Sony BDP-S5100 / OUYA w/ XBMC
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post #93 of 120 Old 10-08-2013, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

XT32 is only better than XT if it includes the dual Subwoofer EQ calibration feature. Not all XT32 compatible receivers have that extra add-on. The Denon X4000 does.

True. I was talking about the Denon 4311.

The Denon 4311 XT32:
"The new Sub EQ HT processor provides subwoofer tuning, and can even provide separate processing for each of two connected subwoofers."
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post #94 of 120 Old 10-08-2013, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Salamandro View Post

In that case I believe I will actually go with the T2s and a Denon X3000 (or 3313 if there's a possibility in Switzerland). Big phonecall tomorrow smile.gif

I just read through my first posts in this thread, kinda funny coming from a 3k budget for a full 5.1 system (Paradigm Millenium) to a 4k speaker only budget. Noob's aiming high cool.gif

So, that leaves the finish, the sub and... cables.

Finish: Will have to sleep on it.
Sub: SVS PB12-NSD?
Cables: Will have to see if there's something like monoprice in Switzerland. What do I need to look out for?



Next item on the list will be the TV. But for that I should probably head over to the TV guys? The wall/white cabinet-thing is 2m/4.5ft wide, and viewing distance will be 4m/13ft to 4.5m/14.7ft

SVS makes great subs. But what are your options? Do you have HSU? Rythmik?

For cables, just get any 10 - 12 gauge cables. Use bare wires or get your own locking banana plugs, which is only for convenience, not sound quality. Bare wires is perfectly fine.

PB12-NSD:
25Hz/31.5Hz/40Hz/50Hz/63Hz/80Hz/100Hz/125Hz

96.3/101/104.6/106.4/107.6/108.2/108.5/108.5 dB


RBH Sound SX-12:
98/108/111.1/113.7/112.7/112.1/111.7/111.6 dB


HSU VTF-15H:
109.7/113.1/115.6/115.3/115.3/115.5/115.6/115.9 dB
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post #95 of 120 Old 10-08-2013, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salamandro View Post

In that case I believe I will actually go with the T2s and a Denon X3000 (or 3313 if there's a possibility in Switzerland). Big phonecall tomorrow smile.gif

I just read through my first posts in this thread, kinda funny coming from a 3k budget for a full 5.1 system (Paradigm Millenium) to a 4k speaker only budget. Noob's aiming high cool.gif

So, that leaves the finish, the sub and... cables.

Finish: Will have to sleep on it.
Sub: SVS PB12-NSD?
Cables: Will have to see if there's something like monoprice in Switzerland. What do I need to look out for?



Next item on the list will be the TV. But for that I should probably head over to the TV guys? The wall/white cabinet-thing is 2m/4.5ft wide, and viewing distance will be 4m/13ft to 4.5m/14.7ft

As mentioned, try regular 12 gauge copper speaker wire. Nothing fancy and expensive is needed. A hardware store would probably carry this.

SVS subs are excellent for the money. Might want to make a call to SVS and get their recommendations based upon your room dimensions. 1-(877)-626-5623 They might be able to help with the best way to import through a Swiss dealer.

As for the receiver, I would look to the Denon X4000 (or equivalent) since it does have Audyssey XT32 with Subwoofer EQ HT, plus it has pre-amp outputs and DTS Neo:X processing. Quite a leap in features with just one model step!

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #96 of 120 Old 10-09-2013, 02:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

SVS makes great subs. But what are your options? Do you have HSU? Rythmik?
I'll have a look into that. I'd have to import SVS through Germany, but I'll have a lookt at HSU and Rythmik, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

As for the receiver, I would look to the Denon X4000 (or equivalent) since it does have Audyssey XT32 with Subwoofer EQ HT, plus it has pre-amp outputs and DTS Neo:X processing. Quite a leap in features with just one model step!
Question with features always is: Do I need them? smile.gif
But I've seen that recommendation before, when thinking about stepping up from the X3000 to just pull through and go for the X4000.

Got an answer from the distributor, the 3313 is sold out. There are some dealers left, though:

3313: 840 CHF
4311: 1270 CHF (60% reduced due to sellout, bargain?)
X3000: ~900 CHF
X4000: ~1500 CHF

Panasonic 55" VT50
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post #97 of 120 Old 10-09-2013, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salamandro View Post

I'll have a look into that. I'd have to import SVS through Germany, but I'll have a lookt at HSU and Rythmik, too.
Question with features always is: Do I need them? smile.gif
But I've seen that recommendation before, when thinking about stepping up from the X3000 to just pull through and go for the X4000.

Got an answer from the distributor, the 3313 is sold out. There are some dealers left, though:

3313: 840 CHF
4311: 1270 CHF (60% reduced due to sellout, bargain?)
X3000: ~900 CHF
X4000: ~1500 CHF

If you don't want DTS Neo:X decoding (look it up on DTS's website for more info), the 4311 also has Audyssey XT32 with Sub EQ HT and pre-outs.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #98 of 120 Old 10-10-2013, 01:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

SVS makes great subs. But what are your options? Do you have HSU? Rythmik?
HSU and Rythmik do not really ship to Europe, it seems. And if they did, a case of warranty would probably get painful. SVS has a dealer in Germany, so that would be OK.
Quote:
For cables, just get any 10 - 12 gauge cables. Use bare wires or get your own locking banana plugs, which is only for convenience, not sound quality. Bare wires is perfectly fine.
You Americans and your domestic measures biggrin.gif Will see what electronic stores have on sale smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

If you don't want DTS Neo:X decoding (look it up on DTS's website for more info), the 4311 also has Audyssey XT32 with Sub EQ HT and pre-outs.
I probably won't need the Neo:X, but since the X4000 isn't that much more expensive than the 4311, I'll probably go for the X4000. Only thing I'm thinking about is if the price-jump from the X3000 is really worth it and if I really need the added features...


Edit: It's done!
Ordered a pair of gloss white T2s and they'll be ready to pickup on saturday. So excited! Had expected a delivery-time of 3-4 weeks, so now the AVR and TV will probably come much too late biggrin.gif I also ordered some 2.75mm copper wires. Probably a bit too expensive but what the heck. (Edit2: Actually having double-thoughts on the cables which I haven't yet bindingly ordered. Got a friend who's an electrician so he should be able to make a set for me... Don't know why I haven't thought about that... Edit3: Oh crap, looked the AWG table up wrongly and told my friend to get 14 gauge cables [2.5mm²], will that do or will I have to ask him again veeery nicely?)

Starting to lean against X4000...

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post #99 of 120 Old 10-10-2013, 08:10 AM
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For short lengths, 14 gauge will probably be fine.

So you're saying that you're leaning towards the X4000? biggrin.gif

It's a bit more future-proof for what that's worth in this particular hobby. You could definitely do height surround speakers as an upgrade at some point (after you get a center speaker and side surrounds). Even the upcoming object based formats have height speakers as a regular feature.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #100 of 120 Old 10-10-2013, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Cables are 4meters (13ft), counting in a some spare. Could probably go shorter, say 3 meters (10ft).


Yes. Towards rolleyes.gif But it doesn't matter, I already ordered biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

Future-proofness in AVRs? Sure tongue.gif But yeah, those were my thoughts. I don't think I will soon need HDMI 2.0 or 4k, so this thing should last some.


So. Remaining:
  • Sub
  • TV
  • BD Player

For the BDP you aleardy mentioned the Oppo 103. Though judging from the AVR features, I doubt I will have to aim that high?

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post #101 of 120 Old 10-10-2013, 09:52 PM
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Probably try a Sony Blu-ray player. At least they seem to support their players with regular updates as compared to say, Panasonic. And you get a built-in SA-CD player.

You'll enjoy this all immensely.

As for future audio formats... I just saw Gravity in Dolby Atmos. Let me tell you, object based audio is all they hyped it to be. MUCH better pin-point placement of effects and dialog throughout the room and those sounds move from one auditorium speaker to the next to the next to the next... rather than ping ponging from one bank of speakers to another with just a blob of sound. Smooooooth like butter. smile.gif Eat your heart out IMAX!!!

Oh, by the way, the film itself is crap... in case you haven't seen it yet.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #102 of 120 Old 10-11-2013, 03:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Found this one:
  • Sony BDP-A6000, half the price of the Oppo BDP103. Can't find any review, though. But supports SACDs. Anything else I have to watch out for?
  • The Denon DBT-3313CI could be linked via Denon Link HD, but it's 1000.- which seems like a lot
  • The Oppo has some new Darbee feature...

Hmm will read some more.

Got the 14 Gauge copper cable and banana plugs yesterday, but I'm not sure if my craftsmanship is sufficent (experience tells me: no biggrin.gif). Might head over to the DIY forum.
What's the effect of a too small cable, anyways? Will it overheat? Or will the soundquality fall short?


Then you must be one of the few human beings who dislikes Gravitiy biggrin.gif Haven't seen it myself, though.

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post #103 of 120 Old 10-11-2013, 07:03 AM - Thread Starter
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SVS just got back to. They said a pair of SB12-NSD would suit the size of the room well and that "Lots of good comes from dual subs!" smile.gif

I'm curious, would I use MultEQ XT32 while listening to music? Isn't music listening recmommendet in Direct Mode?

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post #104 of 120 Old 10-11-2013, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Probably try a Sony Blu-ray player. At least they seem to support their players with regular updates as compared to say, Panasonic. And you get a built-in SA-CD player.

You'll enjoy this all immensely.

As for future audio formats... I just saw Gravity in Dolby Atmos. Let me tell you, object based audio is all they hyped it to be. MUCH better pin-point placement of effects and dialog throughout the room and those sounds move from one auditorium speaker to the next to the next to the next... rather than ping ponging from one bank of speakers to another with just a blob of sound. Smooooooth like butter. smile.gif Eat your heart out IMAX!!!

Oh, by the way, the film itself is crap... in case you haven't seen it yet.
Atmos is a way to get Home theater guys to go to the theater, but it wont be long before Atmos comes to home theater. LOL, just wait till guys start to tell their wife's that they are installing speakers on the ceiling. biggrin.gif
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post #105 of 120 Old 10-11-2013, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Salamandro View Post

SVS just got back to. They said a pair of SB12-NSD would suit the size of the room well and that "Lots of good comes from dual subs!" smile.gif

I'm curious, would I use MultEQ XT32 while listening to music? Isn't music listening recommended in Direct Mode?

Music will benefit from bass management just at much as movies. It's just a means by which the hard to recreate bass frequencies are routed to the subwoofer. That also takes some stress off the amplifiers in the receiver. Your Imagine speakers will open up in the upper and mid range frequency ranges when they don't have to deal with low bass. Though, I'm sure you can cross them over at a lower point than the standard 80 Hz: perhaps 40 Hz or 60 Hz depending on the specs. and your own listening preferences.

Not sure about the cost of the 6000 series Sony player in Europe (could be an upper tier model that hasn't arrive here yet). The Sony BDP-S5100 (or equivalent model) here in the States goes for just $99. Should be fine for most applications. If you want a more robust transport for discs, perhaps the A6000 is better built.

The 14 gauge wires won't overheat. smile.gif You might hear some slightly diminished audio in lengths beyond 50 feet.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #106 of 120 Old 10-11-2013, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
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OK! Thought most people turn Audyssey off for music, but ofc. the lower frequencies still go to the sub. But then, will there still be the benefit when using two subs?

But I guess I'll start with one sub... Or I'll see about the return policy (because it's shipped from Germany) and decide after I've heard both.

Oh, the BDP-S5100 sound good. Didn't realize the SACD support on the lower models. The A6000 will be around 300-400$, but if the BDP-S5100 get's the job done I'm happy to spend less.

Will stay well below 50 feet smile.gif Now starting to look for subwoofer cable.

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post #107 of 120 Old 10-11-2013, 08:49 PM
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Again, the benefits of using dual subs (more peak output, smoother frequency response) will occur whether you're using music or movie sources. Pure or Direct mode would shut off all bass management and regular stereo audio would have no low bass routed to the sub(s) since there is no .1 LFE channel present (as in a movie with a 5.1 or 7.1 channel track). The towers would play full frequency signals even though very few towers can reproduce very low bass frequencies without stress. I just leave everything alone for both types of media.

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post #108 of 120 Old 10-16-2013, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
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It's done!

AVR arrived at the dealer yesterday, so I was able to pick up the whole thing today. But see for yourselves:








Right now the Denon is updating itself so I've got some time to write smile.gif
Was really close to flipping a coin between Gloss White and Ash Black, but went with white because I thought it would blend in nicely and fit to almost anything that is to come.
Well, blend in they do, you could almost call them "stealthy" ;D (not that apparent on the horrible fotos, need some daylight over here!) With the grills on though they look pretty damn imposing. With the grills off, they look pretty damn HiFi eek.gif

The Sony BDP S5100 also arrived and is also updating biggrin.gif

I'm afraid I can't place the devices in the white cabinet (I'm starting build a strong aversion against that thing), because the cable box by itself is almost overheating the thing. And always having to keep it open is even more useless.
So, placed everything below it, but will have to do something about the cables, move the AVR to the right etc. Not finished!

Also ordered one SVS SB12-NSD which should arrive around next week. Wonder how the plants (and neighbors) will react to it cool.gif
Hope I got the right cable, 10 meters of RCA M-M 26 AWG shielded RG-59.

Still very much undecided on the TV. Don't even know how to choose between 55" and 60" and if I want LCD or Plasma and if Philips Ambilight is a good thing or not D:

And all the while my bank account is crying C:

Edit: Oh, will have to unmount the B&O soon tongue.gif

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post #109 of 120 Old 10-16-2013, 04:30 PM
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They are things of beauty! White monoliths to the stereo gods! biggrin.gif

I think you did fine with the subwoofer cable. Shielded wire is very important.

Sometimes plasma power supplies will start buzzing, but your mileage may vary with the brand. Maybe just go with a good LED illuminated, high refresh rate LCD panel until UHD sets are priced in the realm of mere mortals.

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post #110 of 120 Old 10-16-2013, 06:12 PM
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Go with the biggest TV you can, and currently plasmas offer the best image quality by a substantial margin and the Samsungs can get nearly as bright as LCDs so they work well in brighter rooms too.

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post #111 of 120 Old 10-19-2013, 03:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Hmm, still rather undecided.

Edit: Oops, confused some things there.

Edit: Went to a big store and yeah, 60" would be better smile.gif I also really liked the plasmas. Will wait for a good offer for a 60", as TV seem to on sale all the time. Won't go high-end though and wait for the UHD to become affordable...

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post #112 of 120 Old 10-19-2013, 09:18 AM
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Hmm, still rather undecided.

Edit: Oops, confused some things there.

Edit: Went to a big store and yeah, 60" would be better smile.gif I also really liked the plasmas. Will wait for a good offer for a 60", as TV seem to on sale all the time. Won't go high-end though and wait for the UHD to become affordable...

Smart move, especially with a technology change coming.

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post #113 of 120 Old 10-23-2013, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Holy mother of god. It's been a few days since I received my speakers and AVR and ever since installing them I had a bit of a lump in my stomach.
Somehow I've been feeling like the audition setup with the NAD amp and the Rowen Cables had sounded better. Lighter. More detailed. Not only voices, but also high-hats and such. They didn't sound as lifelike as I still remembered from the audit-setup.

Something was clearly wrong. Had I still the sound from my friends 10k $ speakers in my head, which I had just listened to two days ago? Or could it really be that the Denon just doesn't compare to the NAD? Was I imagining things? But those high-hats really did sound like coming from a badly compressed MP3 file... I was about to call a doctor for a diagnose of Paranoia.

Oh lord, had I only heeded the calls of so many on this fine board! I felt kind of silly (this can't have this much of an effect, now can it?) and went on to play around with speaker's placement. And would you believe it? A little (quite a little tbh) toe-in and look who's sounding lifelike again!

Well, maybe I'm imagining things again but I'm certainly pleased now and know again why I went for the T2s biggrin.gif


PS: My SVS has now entered Switzerland. Hope it arrives before the weekend =)
PPS: I guess by the time I decided on a TV, the UHD will be affordable rolleyes.gif


Edit: Oh, one more thing: Can someone explain me how to hook up a smartphone/tablet to the Denon? I can only find Cinch L/R inputs for CD players and cbl/sat, but how to connect the phone's headphone out? Or is there another way?

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post #114 of 120 Old 10-23-2013, 01:55 PM
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Use only the best source material you can find... no MP3's... no compressed streaming music. Just audiophile recordings. Heck import in some AIX Records' Blu-ray music discs (they have their own website) to experience just what quality speakers are capable of. There are about two Chris Botti live concert Blu-ray's as well that are superbly recorded. I'm not usually a jazz person, but it's not all jazz and the guest stars are big time talented.

And yes, correct placement can be key. You could contact PSB directly for their recommendations on toe-in and the like.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #115 of 120 Old 10-23-2013, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh don't get me wrong - I was lestening to CD material. Tord Gustavsen Trio, Myriam Alter and Keb'Mo' (Keep It Simple - amazing album!), but the details of these CDs just sounden kind of... muffled. As would a cheap MP3 sound.

Only through better placement I got to that full, detailed sound I had expected... Lesson learned, I guess smile.gif

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post #116 of 120 Old 10-23-2013, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salamandro View Post

Oh don't get me wrong - I was lestening to CD material. Tord Gustavsen Trio, Myriam Alter and Keb'Mo' (Keep It Simple - amazing album!), but the details of these CDs just sounden kind of... muffled. As would a cheap MP3 sound.

Only through better placement I got to that full, detailed sound I had expected... Lesson learned, I guess smile.gif

One reason for these Blu-ray suggestions in my last post: 24 bit recordings using state of the art equipment. CD's pale in comparison. They can also be played in multi-channel surround whenever you get around to purchasing the rest of the speakers (center and surrounds) from that model line.

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post #117 of 120 Old 10-24-2013, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh, I completely didn't know that! There's a few shops around and prices seem fair. Will have to try this out soon!



Aaaand: The SVS SB12-NSD arrived surprisingly!
Since I still plan to move the sofa, I temporarily placed the sub off to the side, a little away from the corner because that huge monster plant is sitting there. Set the switches according to the manual and hooked it up. Let Audyssey run for 3 seating positions, set the speakers to small and crossover to 80Hz (Audyssey set them to large/full range and crossover to 40). Audyssey also told me to turn down the sub a bit.

So far I'm not sure what to think of the Music setting. First of all I don't know if I did everything right, but that will need some more time for me to go through the manual and guids again. I ran a few CDs (Jazz, Blues, AC/DC) and some DnB I have on Spotify.
In the "Music Mode", there were... more highs and the sub was kind of not doing too much. The double bass sometimes almost got lost. But then I don't know what frequency the double bass covers.

I guess I will also unplug the sub again and run Audyssey with 2.0, and then compare Music to Direct to get a feeling for what Audyssey does to the audio processing.

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post #118 of 120 Old 10-24-2013, 01:42 PM
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The double bass setting can make things sound funky (same bass frequencies going to both the towers and sub). Just use the normal bass management choice. I would manually set your Denon's crossover to SMALL and 60 or maybe 40 Hz. 80 Hz is way too high for large tower speakers. If they were monitor sized, I'd say use 80 Hz.

Also, a sub for music will really only kick in if there are strong low frequencies in the recording, otherwise it usually will stay out of the picture. Play some pipe organ music or something with a double electric bass guitar or tympani or kettle drums, etc. That ought to excite it. smile.gif

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post #119 of 120 Old 10-24-2013, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Ahh no, it wasn't the double bass setting, I meant the double bass instrument. What's that Jazz-Bass called in English? Contrabass? Standup Bass?
I was a little confused because it was less audible than in Direct.

OK, will try 60 and 40. Will throw some Death Metal into the CD Player =) And I really need to buy a Kodo (Japanese drummers) CD =D

And watch the shootout in True Grit again =)

Or maybe tomorrow rolleyes.gif


*snip*
Because the forum was on maintenance I set the crossover 60 and played some more CDs. I still liked Direct better for Jazz . Take this song for example which I was playing from CD:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaqK7PaTR_k&noredirect=1 The double bass is clearly there (even on youtube wink.gif), but with the Music setting it's almost inaudible. Strange. Also with badly recorded Death Metal (DEATH - Human [one of the greatest albums ever, but so poorly recorded =(])
Spun some more commercial things like Moby - Play and Hurts and here the sub really starts to shine. Guess I will switch between the modes, depending on the material. Still lots of things to try out biggrin.gif


Edit: I also tried Muse - 2nd Law. I bought that CD when I was auditioning the T2s at home and apart from not liking the new Muse sound too much, I had been really disappointed by the audio qualitity. The album sounden soo... flat ( especially compared to AC/DC and Tool). Even the dubstep parts were completely without any real bass (and the T2s are quite capable when it comes to bass...)

With Audyssey and the SVS it's a different story, though. The album really comes to live! I'm amazed by how the sound-processing differs from genre to genre smile.gif

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post #120 of 120 Old 10-25-2013, 07:21 PM
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That's why you need some audiophile SA-CD's (www.sa-cd.net) and AIX Records (www.aixrecords.com) Blu-ray audio discs. So much of this pop recording stuff is dynamically compressed to within an inch of its life for MP3 and radio playback. Even compared to great rock albums of the past like "Back In Black" that were processed, but in a different sort of way.

If you can find somehow, someway "The Legends of Jazz Showcase" Blu-ray sampler, it too is recorded with great care for a wonderful live, you are there kind of vibe (besides the fact that these televised HD performances were live).

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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