KEF Q300 a downgrade from energy take classic set? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 05-30-2013, 01:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello,

Im talking sensivity-wise.

-Q300 sensivity- 87db
-Take classics sensivity-89 db


Is this a downgrade???

My Denon-1713 gets hot while playing a lot of music from the take classics, I thought better speakers with high specs would solve the problem (less power). But I see the pair of $650 Q300 have lower sensivity that the take classic...


If I buy them the 1713 will get hotter now??eek.gif

Thanks!!
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post #2 of 26 Old 05-30-2013, 04:58 AM
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Is your receiver well ventilated? How hard are you pushing it?

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post #3 of 26 Old 05-30-2013, 05:30 AM
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They require more power but they will be louder as they are physically pushing more air. Your reciever should be fine. Try venting it better if possible, I would give Denom a call if it gets really hot. My Onkyo tx-nr515 got hot enough to cook on and it had no issues powering things. I returned it but that's a different story.
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post #4 of 26 Old 05-30-2013, 06:02 AM
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The KEF speakers will be a HUGE sonic upgrade, but the problem is that they are basically a 4 ohm speaker, which the receiver is not designed for. The difference in sensitivity is not the main issue.

If you look at the impedance vs frequency curve for the Q300, they do have a 4 ohm impedance at many frequencies. Not good.(the KEF 8 ohm rating is incorrect and misleading).

I suggest that you look at the DALI ZENSOR 1 speakers, which are an easier load to drive and are excellent speakers. They stay above 6 ohms over most of their range and Stereophile measured their actual sensitivity as 88 db per watt in their recent review.

Amazon has them for $475 in black or $525 in a light walnut finish.

If the receiver gets hot enough that you cannot put your palm flat on the top panel it and keep it there for 10 seconds or more, then it is too hot, and you may want to look at improving its ventilation. Check the actual receiver chassis vent hole locations and make sure they have 1 inch of free space above or below them. Putting something about one-half inch thick under each of the feet and raising it may help.

Also, if it is in a cabinet with a back panel, make sure there are plenty of holes in the back panel. If not, cut some holes with a hole saw, especially at the top of the space the unit is in.
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post #5 of 26 Old 05-30-2013, 06:11 AM
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The Kef Q300 do not require more power. You can't just look at a sensitivity rating and run with it. I've compared the Energy Takes to Pioneer floorstanders with sensitivity ratings of 86db, and the Pioneers were easier to drive and played much louder.

Realize that the Energy's are 89db with a response down to 115Hz, while the Kef Q300 are 87db down to 42Hz. That's a huge difference. I'm almost certain that the Kef would be more efficient between 115Hz - 20kHz than the Energy's.

Also, your receiver is getting hot while playing the Energy Takes? It's either a ventilation issue or you're running at very high volumes.

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post #6 of 26 Old 05-30-2013, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

The KEF speakers will be a HUGE sonic upgrade, but the problem is that they are basically a 4 ohm speaker, which the receiver is not designed for. The difference in sensitivity is not the main issue.

If you look at the impedance vs frequency curve for them, they do have a 4 ohm impedance at many frequencies. Not good.

I suggest that you look at the DALI ZENSOR 1 speakers, which are an easier load to drive and are excellent speakers.

Amazon has them for $475 in black or $525 in a light walnut veneer.

If the receiver gets hot enough that you cannot put your palm flat on the top panel it and keep it there for 10 seconds or more, than it is too hot.

Otherwise, it is OK.

This.

If his receiver is getting hot while playing the Energy's, then there is no way he should risk trying to use 4 ohm speakers.

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post #7 of 26 Old 05-30-2013, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for your kind replies, im new to the forum and I see people here are willing to help.

My receiver is in an open cabinet. I use it mostly with my living rooms conditioned air on.

The dali zensor 1 are very beautiful, love the photos but I see they are rated 6 ohms, wont they go 4 ohms at some frequencies? Sensivity 86.5.

Im very open to suggestions, As I already burned my first denon 1713 the first day using yamaha ns-sp1800bl 5.1 set rated at 6 ohms when I crancked the volume up testing them.

Originally I was thinking klipsch reference rb-61iis and a rc-62 ii center but I got scared by the harsh sound people are complaining about.
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post #8 of 26 Old 05-30-2013, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meltrust View Post

Thanks for your kind replies, im new to the forum and I see people here are willing to help.

My receiver is in an open cabinet. I use it mostly with my living rooms conditioned air on.

The dali zensor 1 are very beautiful, love the photos but I see they are rated 6 ohms, wont they go 4 ohms at some frequencies? Sensivity 86.5.

Im very open to suggestions, As I already burned my first denon 1713 the first day using yamaha ns-sp1800bl 5.1 set rated at 6 ohms when I crancked the volume up testing them.

Originally I was thinking klipsch reference rb-61iis and a rc-62 ii center but I got scared by the harsh sound people are complaining about.

The Denon 1713 is rated for use with 6 Ohm speakers. Yes, a speaker rated to 6 ohm's may dip down to 4 ohms for some frequencies, but this shouldn't cause any problems.

What will cause a problem is running the receiver at volume levels beyond the reference 0.

I have my Denon AVR791 tucked away with a half inch of space between it and the cabinet. Literally only have a half inch of breathing room on the top and sides, and yet I have never felt my receiver as anything more than warm after listening to music at very loud levels.

How big is your room? Using small speakers and expecting big sound in a large room isn't logical. It sounds like you want more volume but you're risking the receiver in the process. Looking for super sensitive speakers may seem like the best option, but that isn't always the only thing you need to look at.

The Dali Zensor 1's would most certainly be an upgrade over the Energy's. In both sound quality and overall output/volume. There are lots of options within your budget.

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post #9 of 26 Old 05-30-2013, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meltrust View Post

Thanks for your kind replies, im new to the forum and I see people here are willing to help.

My receiver is in an open cabinet. I use it mostly with my living rooms conditioned air on.

The dali zensor 1 are very beautiful, love the photos but I see they are rated 6 ohms, wont they go 4 ohms at some frequencies? Sensivity 86.5.

Im very open to suggestions, As I already burned my first denon 1713 the first day using yamaha ns-sp1800bl 5.1 set rated at 6 ohms when I crancked the volume up testing them.

Originally I was thinking klipsch reference rb-61iis and a rc-62 ii center but I got scared by the harsh sound people are complaining about.

This really just makes it sound like you are just pushing it to hard.

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post #10 of 26 Old 05-30-2013, 08:53 AM
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You must turn up the volume to some really high levels to be burning up your receiver.

I would think you'd blow out the little Takes before that happens. Have you had your hearing checked? wink.gif

How large is your room?

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post #11 of 26 Old 05-30-2013, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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As you can see, the living room is small, but its not wall separated from the rest of the house (which is small too biggrin.gif). Im upgrading to a klipsch reference RW12D sub too.

Just noticed that audyssey put my crossovers at 80, whereas the take classic only go down to like 110. Maybe that was the problem that was causing the receiver getting hot?


Is there any center and surround speakers to match the dali zensor 1?


Thanks a lot!
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post #12 of 26 Old 05-30-2013, 09:41 AM
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http://www.dali-speakers.com/en-US/Loudspeakers-1/ZENSOR.aspx

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post #13 of 26 Old 05-30-2013, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Just noticed that audyssey put my crossovers at 80, whereas the take classic only go down to like 110. Maybe that was the problem that was causing the receiver getting hot?

That shouldn't make your receiver get hot but up the crossover to 110hz. This allows the powered sub to cover those frequencies.

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post #14 of 26 Old 05-30-2013, 10:52 AM
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Based on those pics do you have room for larger bookshelf speakers? Maybe to the sides of the TV?


I can't see how a much larger center speaker will fit there without blocking the bottom of the TV

Maybe if you got this Cambridge setup the center would fit. The center is less than 5" tall. The bookshelf speakers are less than 9" tall.

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_779S30N/Cambridge-Audio-S30-Noir.html

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_779S50N/Cambridge-Audio-S50.html?showAll=N&search=cambridge_s50&skipvs=T

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post #15 of 26 Old 05-30-2013, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for your concern!!

The fronts to the sides of the tv and im planning to mount the center in a base on the wall exactly next to the top of the tv.
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post #16 of 26 Old 05-30-2013, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Guys, according to the photos do you think the q100s set would suffice? Isnt the q300 a little overkill for my setup? Is it really worth it?
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post #17 of 26 Old 05-30-2013, 05:09 PM
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The Q100 would be fine in your setup. I've run the Q100 with a Denon 1713 and sensitivity/volume was never a problem.

Re a center ... both a third Q100 on it's side and the Q200c horizontal center are 7.25" tall if you want to check if you have enough room. The Q300 on it's side and it's matching horizontal center, the Q600c, are 8.1" tall.
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post #18 of 26 Old 05-30-2013, 05:14 PM
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With such a narrow front stage you might not even need a center channel. it might be fine in phantom mode.

I agree about the Q100's. Should be more than enough for that space.

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/KEFQ100BL/KEF-Q100-Q-Series-5-1/4-inch-Black-Bookshelf-Speakers-pair/1.html#!specifications

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post #19 of 26 Old 05-30-2013, 05:27 PM
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As I said, Stereophile actually MEASURED the sensitivity of the Zensor 1 as 88 db/watt with calibrated accurate instruments. That is accurate and you can depend on it.

The Zensor impedance goes down to about 5.5 ohms minimum, while the KEF Q300 goes down to 4 ohms quite a bit, especially in the mid-bass.

There is no question in my mind that the Zensor 1 will be MUCH easier to drive than the Q300. They should be no problem for your receiver.

I don't like the sound of the Klipsch speakers in this price range at all; I would never recommend them to anyone.


Quote:
Originally Posted by meltrust View Post

Thanks for your kind replies, im new to the forum and I see people here are willing to help.

My receiver is in an open cabinet. I use it mostly with my living rooms conditioned air on.

The dali zensor 1 are very beautiful, love the photos but I see they are rated 6 ohms, wont they go 4 ohms at some frequencies? Sensivity 86.5.

Im very open to suggestions, As I already burned my first denon 1713 the first day using yamaha ns-sp1800bl 5.1 set rated at 6 ohms when I crancked the volume up testing them.

Originally I was thinking klipsch reference rb-61iis and a rc-62 ii center but I got scared by the harsh sound people are complaining about.
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post #20 of 26 Old 05-30-2013, 08:52 PM
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I also ran KEF Q300's on a Denon 1713 for about three weeks with no issues. (Auditioned both the Q300 and Q100, ended up keeping the Q100.)
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post #21 of 26 Old 05-31-2013, 08:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdg4vfx View Post

I also ran KEF Q300's on a Denon 1713 for about three weeks with no issues. (Auditioned both the Q300 and Q100, ended up keeping the Q100.)

Why did you keep the q100s? Budget? Or they are just more value??


Guys I guess I'll just buy a pair of fronts and the sub. Should I keep my take classic's center surrounds installed until I can afford to upgrade them too? Or should I just get rid of them and install new fronts and sub?

Will the old and new play nice to each other?

Thanks
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post #22 of 26 Old 05-31-2013, 08:29 AM
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Use the Take Classics as surrounds but take out the center. Its not a match for the KEF. Just go "phantom" mode which means no center speaker. The two front speakers will handle the vocals when the center is turned off.

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post #23 of 26 Old 05-31-2013, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meltrust View Post

Why did you keep the q100s? Budget? Or they are just more value?? ...
Their sound is essentially identical, kept the Q100s because ...
- I didn't need the little extra volume the Q300's offer
- The slightly smaller physical size looked better in my space
- I eventually plan to get matching surrounds, so again the smaller size was a plus

If you like music listening without a sub the Q300 is the better choice (it digs a little lower). I always listen to music with a sub and the Q100 is fine.
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... Guys I guess I'll just buy a pair of fronts and the sub. Should I keep my take classic's center surrounds installed until I can afford to upgrade them too? ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

Use the Take Classics as surrounds but take out the center. Its not a match for the KEF. Just go "phantom" mode which means no center speaker. The two front speakers will handle the vocals when the center is turned off.

+1
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post #24 of 26 Old 06-03-2013, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Guys, Ive just been offered a total upgrade from Monitor Audio:

2 Rx2s, 2 Rx1s, and 1 Rxcentre.

All for the price of the pair of Q300 and the Q600c (result: free Rx1 surrounds).


Should I take the RX package instead of the KEFs? I see the RX are 6ohms but have better sensivity (RX90db vs 87 db Q300).

My concern is not burn my receiver.


Thanks for the help in advance smile.gif
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post #25 of 26 Old 06-03-2013, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meltrust View Post

Guys, Ive just been offered a total upgrade from Monitor Audio:

2 Rx2s, 2 Rx1s, and 1 Rxcentre.

All for the price of the pair of Q300 and the Q600c (result: free Rx1 surrounds).


Should I take the RX package instead of the KEFs? I see the RX are 6ohms but have better sensivity (RX90db vs 87 db Q300).

My concern is not burn my receiver.


Thanks for the help in advance smile.gif

Go for it. I'd have no problem picking up that set for that price.

Sensitivity really isn't much of an issue here, as both the Kef and Monitor's would play plenty loud. For sure they would both sound better than your current setup.

As long as you don't attempt to blow your eardrums out, you shouldn't be able to burn up your receiver with the Monitor Audio's. No way you could stand to listen to these at 105db+ long enough to burn up your receiver. I still don't know how you're getting so hot to begin with though. lol
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post #26 of 26 Old 06-03-2013, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

Go for it. I'd have no problem picking up that set for that price.

Sensitivity really isn't much of an issue here, as both the Kef and Monitor's would play plenty loud. For sure they woul d both sound better than your current setup.

As long as you don't attempt to blow your eardrums out, you shouldn't be able to burn up your receiver with the Monitor Audio's. No way you could stand to listen to these at 105db+ long enough to burn up your receiver. I still don't know how you're getting so hot to begin with though. lol


Problem was also Audyssey had my crossovers set at 80 at my receiver. Didn´t know this take classic speakers don't go lower than 110. Maybe that was the issue.

I burned another Denon 1713 with the 6ohms Yamaha NS-SP1800BL 5.1 they had a sensivity of 83db.

I cranked up the volume to "test" them and the receiver just burned. It didn't go to protection mode it just burned mad.gif. I failed horribly and I was way too noob. Also, instead of asking in forums I just bought them based on price and reviews.


I'm still regreting, that's why I'm going with the paranoic aproach this time as I don't want to burn another receiver it would be too much for me.



I appreciate your help sooo much!! smile.gif
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