JBL Pro 3677 Speakers - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 60 Old 07-01-2013, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Rubbish. They have a directivity from about 1kHz that narrows to roughly 90* horizontally and 40*, markedly narrower than the typical small cone/dome speakers such as the Paradigms which typically radiate half space, 180* horizontally through their passband.
When we install speakers, we do not think only about 1 kHz and higher. We think about the speakers entire range, and with their massive size, it will be difficult to get these speakers > 3 ft from a wall and they have the capability of being used as large speakers going to 40 hz. Therefore we do not rec'd them in an untreated room. We also do not rec'd Paradigm Monitor, Studio or Reference floorstanding speakers in untreated rooms. It may be the wording in our review was poorly chosen, making one think that only these speakers are not rec'd in an untreated room.

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post #32 of 60 Old 07-23-2013, 10:50 AM
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Critical,

For a single row 4 ft from the back wall how high would you suggest mounting the rear 8320s?

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post #33 of 60 Old 07-23-2013, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by CriticalListener View Post

Here are our ARC (Anthem Room Correction) measurements.

What's important is how close the green line (corrected response) gets to the blue line (target response).
The 90Hz dip indicates a 3 foot distance from the baffle to the wall behind. That, or the same distance from the mic position to the wall behind the mic. Assuming it's the distance to the wall behind the speakers they should be either flush mounted, to eliminate any Allison Effect, or pulled further out to lower the frequency of the dip to below the crossover frequency. Of course if they're being crossed at 100Hz it wouldn't matter anyway, but if lower than that it matters a lot. The difficulty of dealing with Allison Effect with large cabs is one drawback to using theatrical boxes; in theaters they'll walled in to get around it.

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post #34 of 60 Old 07-23-2013, 12:26 PM
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I am sorry but there is no way the paradigm is a better speaker for movies, ever! Show me some compression sweeps and THD graphs to show which one can truly play reference cleanly!
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post #35 of 60 Old 07-24-2013, 09:36 AM
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Can Anyone give an opinion of ideal height for these 8320 s 4ft back from the row of seating? I have a 6 ft spread between all 4 surrounds, just not sure on a height.

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post #36 of 60 Old 07-24-2013, 10:40 AM
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Above your head with them aiming towards your ears. 6 feet high works great but experiment with a temporary stand and hear for yourself.
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post #37 of 60 Old 07-25-2013, 08:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I am sorry but there is no way the paradigm is a better speaker for movies, ever! Show me some compression sweeps and THD graphs to show which one can truly play reference cleanly!
If by "reference" you mean 85db, you are correct. However, we have never installed a system where users could handle anything close to that level for more than a very short period of time. Most customers prefer levels under 80db, and at that level, the Paradigm CC690 does not compress much and is a superior speaker to the JBL 3677. If the intent is to listen at reference level, than the 3677 handles that with aplomb.

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post #38 of 60 Old 07-25-2013, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by CriticalListener View Post

If by "reference" you mean 85db, you are correct. However, we have never installed a system where users could handle anything close to that level for more than a very short period of time. Most customers prefer levels under 80db, and at that level, the Paradigm CC690 does not compress much and is a superior speaker to the JBL 3677. If the intent is to listen at reference level, than the 3677 handles that with aplomb.

I agree but what people never try is that if you play a speaker like the JBL at lower volumes it has lots of headroom. What this means is you can EQ the response to match that of the paradigm and then compare the two. Sometimes you just can't educate people in the truth about audio. My very wealthy friend had paradigms in his theater and loved them except he always complained that they broke all the time. I told him they don't break, he just plays them much louder then what they are intended for. Of course he was not to blame so I ordered him some JTR speakers. After they were dialed in he said they don't sound good enough at the volume he likes but the paradigms did. I knew right there he was full of BS and giving me a hard time. How? I knew this because the paradigms were distorting and compressing badly at 105 dBs or 95 dBs at his LP. If I dialed them back to 103 dBs and 93 dBs at his LP they were just OK. I measured the JTRs at 110 dBs at the LP so this was 120 dBs at the speaker. I told him he never listened this loud before because his Digms could never reach these levels, ever! No matter what I showed him he was not convinced. So I dialed back the JTRs to the same levels where the digms started to compress(103 and 93) and the JTRs were rocking with no compression at all. I told him he needs to put in a better recording to appreciate the difference and we did. People have funny ideas what is good or not.
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post #39 of 60 Old 07-25-2013, 07:47 PM
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The reason of the dip past 3khz is because the JBL 3677's internal crossover adhears to the X-curve de-emphasis. Don't know if you mentioned that. The crossover can be reworked around it or could just re-wire and Bi-amp.

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post #40 of 60 Old 07-25-2013, 07:56 PM
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How would the jbl 3677 compare against the DIY seos 15" speakers?
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post #41 of 60 Old 07-25-2013, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

How would the jbl 3677 compare against the DIY seos 15" speakers?
Depending on the drivers used in the SEOS they could be comparable. The JBL drivers are good, but nothing that can't be matched, or even beat for that matter.

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post #42 of 60 Old 07-25-2013, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Depending on the drivers used in the SEOS they could be comparable. The JBL drivers are good, but nothing that can't be matched, or even beat for that matter.

What drivers in the seos should I look for? I'm building 4 18" Dayton subs. I don't start my build until September when I move so I can have a dedicated HT with an AT screen.
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post #43 of 60 Old 07-26-2013, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

What drivers in the seos should I look for?
Whatever gives the desired result. That means using speaker modeling software with the woofers, and preferably measured response charts with the HF driver/horn combination. It also means knowing how to create a superb crossover, and that's the most difficult part of the process. If you lack those skills you should just go with a tested design, but make sure you see measured response charts for it.

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post #44 of 60 Old 07-26-2013, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Whatever gives the desired result. That means using speaker modeling software with the woofers, and preferably measured response charts with the HF driver/horn combination. It also means knowing how to create a superb crossover, and that's the most difficult part of the process. If you lack those skills you should just go with a tested design, but make sure you see measured response charts for it.

Ok, thanks
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post #45 of 60 Old 07-26-2013, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by CriticalListener View Post

Also, our surround speakers were the JBL Pro 8320’s, not the 3677’s used in the installation (absolutely no room for 3677’s as surround speakers in our showroom).
This review is not going to be a detailed magazine review, which talk about every album they listened to with specifics about how the speakers made them feel. We will say, listening to jazz, classical, rock and country, the JBL’s are good speakers. They did the music justice, but compared to Paradigm Studio 100’s, they do not have the incredibly smooth midrange or sweet highs.[cut]

CONCLUSION
Remarkably little above 15 kHz is in music recordings and even less in movie soundtracks, but these aren’t speakers for critical listening. They are for fun, dynamic movies that can be purchased at under $900 each that fill a need for larger home theaters without breaking a small budget. If you want to feel like you’re in the middle of the fight during an action movie, these speakers will fill that need with aplomb. Highly recommended.

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The reason of the dip past 3khz is because the JBL 3677's internal crossover adhears to the X-curve de-emphasis. Don't know if you mentioned that. The crossover can be reworked around it or could just re-wire and Bi-amp.

That is certainly true of the 8320 surrounds; it's written on it spec sheet. But the 3677 spec sheet makes no mention of it.
Can anyone confirm that the X-Curve can be defeated on the 8320? I would then consider using it as a rear surround speaker (smaller form factor than a Klipsch Heresy). Thanks!

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post #46 of 60 Old 07-26-2013, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post


That is certainly true of the 8320 surrounds; it's written on it spec sheet. But the 3677 spec sheet makes no mention of it.
Can anyone confirm that the X-Curve can be defeated on the 8320? I would then consider using it as a rear surround speaker (smaller form factor than a Klipsch Heresy). Thanks!

You know I'm trying to find proof too. I was told once by a cinema owner that all JBL Pro Cinema gear adhears to X-curve but I can't find proof online yet.

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post #47 of 60 Old 07-26-2013, 01:02 PM
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It would certainly explain the HF roll-off shown above!

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post #48 of 60 Old 07-26-2013, 01:08 PM
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I just called JBL Tech support but got Andrews Voice mail. Their number is (818) 894-8850 , ask for Andrew in cinema support.

I have the 8320 surrounds and can verify there is no way short of opening up the speaker to disable or enable anything.

What is the problem with the x-curve ?

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post #49 of 60 Old 07-26-2013, 01:19 PM
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What is the problem with the x-curve ?

It's not a flat frequency response? I see no use for it.

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post #50 of 60 Old 07-26-2013, 01:24 PM
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From: JBL Cinema Sound System Manual

"JBL pioneered the concept of flat power response in the cinema (2,3). It has become the
guiding principle in much of JBL’s product design, and it has been adopted by the industry at large."

And from the Lenard Audio Institute: "Old JBL documentation of sound system application and alignment, states a sound level difference between the front to the rear of a cinema of less than 6dB. Considering that the direct sound energy would decrease approx 24dB for the inverse square law, for an average large cinema, and the directivity of the hi-frequency horn would give an approx 6dB improvement, that means approx 12dB of reverberant energy is accepted. It is difficult to understand how any intelligibility is heard with this level of reverberation at the rear of a cinema."

And an article on the x-curve and home use:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_2/feature-article-curves-6-2002.html
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post #51 of 60 Old 07-26-2013, 01:27 PM
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X-curve: An intentional roll-off in a theatrical system's playback response above ~2kHz at 3dB per octave. A modern convention (standardized between 1975 and 1984) specified in ISO Bulletin 2969, it is measured at the rerecording position in a dubbing stage or two-thirds of the way back in a movie theater. Pink noise should measure flat to 2kHz and then should roll-off above that. Home THX processors add this roll-off, when engaged, so that a home video soundtrack will have the same response as it would in a theatrical setting.


^^
From http://www.hometheater.com/home-theater-audio-video-glossary

It's very obvious the OP graph shows exactly what the definition of x-curve is.

So..... not only do my speakers have it, my processor has it. LOL.... whatever happened to K.I.S.S. ?

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post #52 of 60 Old 07-26-2013, 01:34 PM
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http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/74269-editorial-dvd-the-x-curve-and-dirty-little-secrets/

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post #53 of 60 Old 07-26-2013, 01:36 PM
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And....Audyssey does this for you if you use the Audyssey Reference target curve and not Audyssey Flat.

Audyssey - The "Audyssey" target curve setting makes the appropriate correction at high frequencies to alleviate this problem. A slight roll-off is introduced that restores the balance between direct and reflected sound.

Audyssey Flat -The "Flat" setting uses the MultEQ XT filters in the same way as the Audyssey curve, but it does not apply a high frequency roll-off. This setting is appropriate for very small or highly treated rooms in which the listener is seated quite close to the loudspeakers. It is also recommended for all rooms when the receiver is in THX processing mode. This allows THX re-equalization to operate exactly as it was intended.

Audyssey Bypass L/R - The "Bypass L/R" setting uses the MultEQ XT filters that were calculated for the entire listening area, but it does not apply any filtering to the front left and right speakers. The average measured response from the front left and right speakers is used as the target curve for the remaining speakers in the system. The subwoofer in this case is equalized to flat as is the case for all the settings described above.

Manual - Finally, the "Manual" setting is a traditional graphic equalizer that does not use the MultEQ XT filters. However, the "base curve" that was measured during the Auto Setup process, (Speaker Configuration, Distance, and Channel Level) can copy to the Graphic EQ, where you can then make adjustments to your personal tastes. No other properties of MultEQ XT are applied with this setting.
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post #54 of 60 Old 07-26-2013, 02:09 PM
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Is the situation the same 11 years later? Are Blu Ray soundtracks still mastered with a HF emphasis that needs to be removed? If so, why isn't this a constant source of discussion on the forum?

In any case, my other speakers don't have it, so it would be best for me for none of them to have it. Otherwise there will be a noticeable timber change across speakers.

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post #55 of 60 Old 07-26-2013, 03:11 PM
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Ya it sure looks like the X-Curve at work. I have the JBL 8340a's for surrounds which have the X-curve and they are by far the best surrounds I've ever had. My LCR behind my 125" AT screen are CHT SHO-10s and they blend wonderfully with the surrounds to create a very 3 dimensional sound field. So dynamic too. You' may think the de-emphasis of the X-curve would make the highs sound dull but it's not the case in my setup. Yes to wire around the X-curve involves taking out the crossover and I'm not for sure exactly what to do to the crossover but I know it can be done.

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post #56 of 60 Old 07-26-2013, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddig View Post

Ya it sure looks like the X-Curve at work. I have the JBL 8340a's for surrounds which have the X-curve and they are by far the best surrounds I've ever had. My LCR behind my 125" AT screen are CHT SHO-10s and they blend wonderfully with the surrounds to create a very 3 dimensional sound field. So dynamic too. You' may think the de-emphasis of the X-curve would make the highs sound dull but it's not the case in my setup. Yes to wire around the X-curve involves taking out the crossover and I'm not for sure exactly what to do to the crossover but I know it can be done.

May be way off, but to get higher frequencies from a passive xover youd remove copper and change caps.

Years ago i built my own sub xover. It was one big wind of copper. The more copper, the less highs get to the subs.

This x-curve is not only present in speakers but also the AVR modes. I would bet many have had an x-curve via the avr and not even known. Just a guess .... Hell i wouldn't have known if it werent for this thread n

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post #57 of 60 Old 08-01-2013, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

My very wealthy friend had paradigms in his theater and loved them except he always complained that they broke all the time.
Glad you brought up this point. Both in our showroom, where we DO try to listen at close to reference levels, we've encountered an enormous amount of bad drivers. Midranges, woofers and tweeters (but mostly midranges), going bad from every consumer brand we carry and have carried (PSB, Totem, Paradigm, Yamaha, Atlantic). We are very curious how these JBL's handle long-term reference level listening.

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post #58 of 60 Old 08-01-2013, 10:30 AM
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Glad you brought up this point. Both in our showroom, where we DO try to listen at close to reference levels, we've encountered an enormous amount of bad drivers. Midranges, woofers and tweeters (but mostly midranges), going bad from every consumer brand we carry and have carried (PSB, Totem, Paradigm, Yamaha, Atlantic). We are very curious how these JBL's handle long-term reference level listening.

His drivers were good, he just kept blowing them up because he was told by his dealer his digms could crank, and crank he did! Every speaker has limits and he found the limits of his digms all the time. I swapped out some JTRs with only 250 watts available and told him to go ahead and crank on them. Well, he threw in some Tom Petty and cranked it and as soon as the first guitar riff happened he jumped back and said holy crap! He immediately turned them down, he found the limits of his ears, not the speakers!
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post #59 of 60 Old 12-29-2013, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
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Glad you brought up this point. Both in our showroom, where we DO try to listen at close to reference levels, we've encountered an enormous amount of bad drivers. Midranges, woofers and tweeters (but mostly midranges), going bad from every consumer brand we carry and have carried (PSB, Totem, Paradigm, Yamaha, Atlantic). We are very curious how these JBL's handle long-term reference level listening.
They should last a long time being designed for the commercial cinema world where everyday and all day they are getting played at or near reference level. Drivers are super easy to swap and the 15 can just be reconed.

WRT the 8320s I don't think they are a good choice to be paired with the 3677 as the 8320s have a horn loaded soft dome tweeter and the 3677 has a horn loaded CD. 8340a would b better but I remember you saying it stuck out too far.

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post #60 of 60 Old 12-29-2013, 06:13 PM
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I have 8320s with 3677s..... They sound ok to me.

FS- Peavey IPR 2 7500, Art Clean Box Pro, Netgear 550 .ISO player - PM me
My Gear-Pioneer, JBL Pro Cinema, Fi Car Audio 4- SP4 18", Peavey IPR2 7500 x 2, Mini-Dsp 4x10, GIK Acoustics, Seymour Screens 110" AT, Dune Smarts, uNraid Server
Theater Build and Two Sono Sub Builds Here-
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