JBL Pro 3677 Speakers - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 160 Old 07-01-2015, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Newer does not mean better.
For the intended application it most defiantly does. They mixed and mastered movie sound tracks different and had different audio formats than when the 3677 was made. The Newer speakers have those more up to date ideology in mind when building them. Not to mention advances in components and sound design. Different more efficient ways to manufacture items which leads to less expensive speakers with a better sound. Like your 215xl's, no way you could get a PA speaker to sound that nice for such short money 20 years ago. I am sure the 3677 sounds great and if its all you heard you would love it. But if for a small amount more you could get something that may sound better why wouldn't you?

It is also shorter than the 3677 and if you plan on using this under a screen or TV it makes more sense as its shorter. Even if both speakers sounded excellent, if one gave you better placement options why not get it?

Something that sounds nice and having something that is accurate are two different things. You can have a speaker that you like how it sounds which is fine. But if you could have another speaker that is more accurate and portrays the sound as it was intended that is what makes it better.
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post #92 of 160 Old 07-01-2015, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by lemonslush View Post
For the intended application it most defiantly does. They mixed and mastered movie sound tracks different and had different audio formats than when the 3677 was made. The Newer speakers have those more up to date ideology in mind when building them. Not to mention advances in components and sound design. Different more efficient ways to manufacture items which leads to less expensive speakers with a better sound. Like your 215xl's, no way you could get a PA speaker to sound that nice for such short money 20 years ago. I am sure the 3677 sounds great and if its all you heard you would love it. But if for a small amount more you could get something that may sound better why wouldn't you?

It is also shorter than the 3677 and if you plan on using this under a screen or TV it makes more sense as its shorter. Even if both speakers sounded excellent, if one gave you better placement options why not get it?

Something that sounds nice and having something that is accurate are two different things. You can have a speaker that you like how it sounds which is fine. But if you could have another speaker that is more accurate and portrays the sound as it was intended that is what makes it better.
I have tested many speakers in my room in the same location, I have owned many cinema speakers as well. Like the other thread, sometimes we don't hear all those so called better advances. You do know that a bluray does not even have much content over 10khz so the 3677 with it's 12khz extension will rock for movies. Even music won't go much above. Again all this talk is great, I experience it for myself and make sure they are setup correctly to be fair. I have owned the Klipsch THX ultra system as well.

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post #93 of 160 Old 07-01-2015, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by lemonslush View Post
For the intended application it most defiantly does. They mixed and mastered movie sound tracks different and had different audio formats than when the 3677 was made. The Newer speakers have those more up to date ideology in mind when building them. Not to mention advances in components and sound design. Different more efficient ways to manufacture items which leads to less expensive speakers with a better sound. Like your 215xl's, no way you could get a PA speaker to sound that nice for such short money 20 years ago. I am sure the 3677 sounds great and if its all you heard you would love it. But if for a small amount more you could get something that may sound better why wouldn't you?

It is also shorter than the 3677 and if you plan on using this under a screen or TV it makes more sense as its shorter. Even if both speakers sounded excellent, if one gave you better placement options why not get it?

Something that sounds nice and having something that is accurate are two different things. You can have a speaker that you like how it sounds which is fine. But if you could have another speaker that is more accurate and portrays the sound as it was intended that is what makes it better.
Why are you not in a QSC thread? Your mind seems to be made up.

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post #94 of 160 Old 07-01-2015, 09:50 AM
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The specs provided for QSC speakers on their website are pretty lame. No XO point given (exception is the theater speakers) and the best freq resp rating is -6 dB and the second set is -10 dB. I had interest in QSC as I really love their amplifiers, but the lack of data on the speakers is an issue for me.

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post #95 of 160 Old 07-01-2015, 10:30 AM
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The specs provided for QSC speakers on their website are pretty lame. No XO point given (exception is the theater speakers) and the best freq resp rating is -6 dB and the second set is -10 dB. I had interest in QSC as I really love their amplifiers, but the lack of data on the speakers is an issue for me.
+1.

They don't have a 5 million dollar spinOrama machine that takes 92 points of measurements in 15 minutes and creates a sound curve, freq response, off axis, first and second reflections, total sound power, distortion, etc...

The propagation of QSC speakers in the professional arena is mostly a result of brand loyalty and availability and a trickle over effect from their high percentage and dominance in professional cinema amplification and DSP. QSC is much more dominant in amplifiers and in the digital signal processing for commercial cinema and most of the "PRO" guys likely use simply because they use that other stuff, and naturally you'll recommend what you use. QSC makes all the tech and gear for cinema servers and stuff, so they have their foot already in the door. The use of their speaker is not due to superior performance.

I've never seen any reliable data showing QSC is superior to JBL products. Subjective recommendation and feedback are less than worthless in terms of reliability and correlation to actual reality. I would never put my money on a product that was backed only by word of mouth on the street.

The true answer is individual people will find and manifest their own reasons to like one brand over the other but little of that created opinion actually related at all to the reality of speaker performance of either brand. Both brands make quality products that can work.

My gut tells me the Harman stuff is better measured, and for that reason I would choose JBL. I find comfort in giving my money to a company that holds the importance of accurate measurements of paramount importance. The active JBL screen array products paired with DSi amps should theoretically have the ability to be flat within a very small tolerance (1db, 2db etc). The bonus is in the DSP and active design.

I would think QSC if using an active design would have a similar result possible. For the best and most certain outcome you would need to measure and calibrated them. Both brands can work equally well.

I'll also point out listening to a QSC versus a JBL in a retail store, and using a pro audio product, is more than 100% worthless in forming an opinion of either the QSC cinema speaker or the JBL Cinema speaker. You can't generalize about an entire company product line from such an event.

You could essentially flip a coin and be ok in your choice. I think both are quality products. The reasons why I trust Harman product is service, availability of accurate measurements, and the scientific research they've done over the years. I have a lot of respect for how JBL PRO does things and engineers loudspeakers. No hate on QSC but they've lacked the science studies and proprietary engineering, the patents, and a lot of the tools and resources that JBL PRO has access to use under the JBL umbrella.

Saying the 4722 is old is also pointless. For a company like JBL PRO to re-engineer or improve or replace a product like that is not a big deal. Look at how many patents they got granted last year alone on the new driver technology and M2 waveguide. (9 patents in 2013)
They have access to actually engineer their own drivers for whatever design they want, and they hold more loudspeaker patents than anyone else so they essentially have everything at their disposal. They have high tech 3D printers that can manufacture a part on the spot if they need it. If they have not found any reason to change it, or improve it, or discontinue it- that probably means that's because the design works. That's actually a reason to choose that product IMO.

I think QSC was late to the cinema speaker world and kind of made something with what they had available. My understanding was they hired Paul Hales to come in and help design their speakers. He know owns Pro Audio Technology who makes some pretty big daddy and bad ass speakers too. He's not an idiot or new to speaker design so even with the lack of measurements my gut also tells me the QSC product is good.

Like literally flip a coin. Both are great.

Since Lemonslush already has a stack of CROWN DSi Digital cinema amplifiers that match up to the JBL screen array speakers it kind of seems stupid to sell those off and switch to QSC amplification. Even if QSC ampification is "better" it's just a total extra expenditure for such a trivial gain. Practicality should rule the day here. If using passive, I am of the believe that a passive of either system would be inferior to an active of the alternative. So that's a dead end too.

Conclusion- QSC is great. Buy the JBL.

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post #96 of 160 Old 07-01-2015, 10:38 AM
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Since Lemonslush already has a stack of CROWN DSi Digital cinema amplifiers that match up to the JBL screen array speakers it kind of seems stupid to sell those off
I disagree wholeheartedly because, I would love to buy some of those DSi amps should he choose to go QSC My vote is for JBL but I also don't want speakers that remind me of QVC.
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post #97 of 160 Old 07-01-2015, 10:46 AM
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I disagree wholeheartedly because, I would love to buy some of those DSi amps should he choose to go QSC My vote is for JBL but I also don't want speakers that remind me of QVC.
DSi Digital Screen Array amplifier FIRE SALE ! 90% off. All products must go!

Sign me up. I have (4) myself. Great amps.

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post #98 of 160 Old 07-01-2015, 11:25 AM
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That is a very valid point. I did buy five DSI 1000 amps... and hooking them up would be OH so easy. Maybe ill do 3678 even though everyone seems to hate it!
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post #99 of 160 Old 07-01-2015, 11:37 AM
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That is a very valid point. I did buy five DSI 1000 amps... and hooking them up would be OH so easy. Maybe ill do 3678 even though everyone seems to hate it!
I would move up to the 3722 or the 4722. I would take all 5 of those amps if we can agree on price.
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post #100 of 160 Old 07-01-2015, 11:57 AM
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I have so many amps, if I sold all five today I have enough QSC and crown amps left over to power an entire home theater. I have a problem. amps are easy to buy and dont take up space.

Its just size really, not cost thats my concern. 4722 is a better speaker. Anyone actually compare the 3678, 3677 to the 4722? Is it worth twice the cost?
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post #101 of 160 Old 07-01-2015, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by lemonslush View Post
That is a very valid point. I did buy five DSI 1000 amps... and hooking them up would be OH so easy. Maybe ill do 3678 even though everyone seems to hate it!
I do not hate it. It would work. Not as good at 4722 though. It has that Xcurve. -10db down in the top octave.

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post #102 of 160 Old 07-01-2015, 12:13 PM
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I have so many amps, if I sold all five today I have enough QSC and crown amps left over to power an entire home theater. I have a problem. amps are easy to buy and dont take up space.

Its just size really, not cost thats my concern. 4722 is a better speaker. Anyone actually compare the 3678, 3677 to the 4722? Is it worth twice the cost?
More reason to get the right speaker.

You seem to have no problem blowing $200-$300 at a time, over and over. But you have a serious apprehension to dropping $1000+ once.

It's counter productive.

I get the baby steps makes it hurt less part.

But you should sell off your QSC and X1000 amps and only keep the DSI amps. Use the cash to get the proper speaker.

Put the 4722 to the left and right of the screen, toed in. Make an angle cabinet like corner thing that looks good. Paint it or stain it wood, trim it out to look high end. Then put only SOME subs (no more than (8) 18") and not all subs behind screen. Put a single 4722 as the center.

Use the rest of the subs on the left and right, one in the back. Add some subs if you wanted.

Two on the left. Two on the right. Plus flush faced gear rack on the right in the door way to the closet you'll make out of that right side cubby. Use the old rack space cubby for 2 more subs. upgrade to 14 or 16 subs. Don't be scared.

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post #103 of 160 Old 07-01-2015, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by lemonslush View Post
I have so many amps, if I sold all five today I have enough QSC and crown amps left over to power an entire home theater. I have a problem. amps are easy to buy and dont take up space.

Its just size really, not cost thats my concern. 4722 is a better speaker. Anyone actually compare the 3678, 3677 to the 4722? Is it worth twice the cost?
Yes, the 4722 is worth twice the cost of the 3677 - I have heard both. I have never heard the 3678 but they are the same cost as the 4722, if not more and are just dumb looking with that stupid, small horn. I have heard positive reviews on the 3722 but I don't know what the cost delta is between it and the 4722.
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post #104 of 160 Old 07-01-2015, 12:31 PM
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The 3678 is a few hundred more than the 4722. 3722 is about $900 or so 4722 $1088. I could get the 3678 used for $1500 for three. Cost not really the issue just wondering if it's worth the extra expense or not as I am basing a purchase on suggestions and research.

As for placement I can't fit Any subs up front if I have three 30" wide speaker. Not above or below. only real placement is left and right if my screen on the side walls. Not ideal but unless I make huge ugly ass columns I'm SOL.

If I did 3678 I could fit 8 subs up front. And do some on the sides. I have two extra boxes. I could easily add two more subs.
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post #105 of 160 Old 07-01-2015, 12:36 PM
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My plan is to eventually go Pre/pro so I will need the extra amps. I figure five DSI amps 3 for LRC , 1 for rears, 1 for surround back or front wides)whatever I choose I guess). the qsc go for atmos, qsc sounds sweet probably my favorite sounding amp. The the crowns ahh well sure I don't actually need them. One will power my PA speakers for karaoke and my drum monitors. I could use the other to get 11.4. done if it's even worth having that many speakers.
Thinking volt 10xl or JBL 8320a for surrounds.
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post #106 of 160 Old 07-01-2015, 01:16 PM
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Both surrounds could work. No problems there. Get the 4722. Make them wide apart in your room, or run wide speakers.

if you cram all 3 behind screen then just run wides.

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post #107 of 160 Old 07-01-2015, 01:18 PM
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You want sufficient distance between LCR to get a proper stereo image. With big speakers if you want to AT screen, you need a big AT screen to fit.

Otherwise- you can put them on the sides. Only the center behind AT. Put the L and R on the sides of screen toed in, behind AT cloth.

Or - cram them all behind screen rather close together and use the wides. Wides are for the master race.

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post #108 of 160 Old 07-01-2015, 01:19 PM
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My limited experience says the JBL 3677 is an insane speaker for the price, I've owned it and loved it. However I'm sure the 4722 is better , however 2x better I highly doubt and find that statement crazy as the 3677 is damn good.

As far as QSC vs JBL. The cinema guys on the film tech love the 4722 so it's not like they hate JBL or have marketing pushing them to QSC which is what seems to be argued here. The majority overall like the QSC line as only a few JBLs are at the QSC level in their opinion. But brand loyalty doesn't seem to be a factor at all as they have no problems recommending 4722 and one or two larger JBLs that I can't remember. So the brand loyalty angle doesn't fly as a reason they overall prefer QSC when they'll also recommend the 4722 in a heartbeat.

This forum has become full Of JBL supporters..heck I'm one of them. But until people have heard QSC cinema to directly compare to the JBL cinema speakers (preferably both set up right in a blind test) no one can give a fair comparison...or any comparison at all really other than a discussion of specs and who publishes what.

For instance the 3677 has a much better woofer (and not by a small margin) than the 3622, both cross high at 1.2 and 1.3.k. So spec wise the vocals should be better on the 3677 as the vocals average 1k. In reality you'd need to blindly A/B them both together to have any merit to say one is hands down better.

Basically I see a ton of people suggesting what they own, kinda like a bunch of newbies having not even heard the other speakers mentioned which is something we flame newbies for doing. We all know the importance of blind testing and we shouldn't forget that. Until then it should be yes, the JBLs are awesome, very awesome, the QSC we don't know because we haven't heard the speakers in question. Until we have heard the 4722 against the 2150 in a blind test we are just speculating.

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post #109 of 160 Old 07-01-2015, 01:23 PM
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Both surrounds could work. No problems there. Get the 4722. Make them wide apart in your room, or run wide speakers.

if you cram all 3 behind screen then just run wides.
You can't go wrong with this as seriously everyone seems to love this speaker. Of course I'd try and go baffle wall which also should help imaging and cohesion. Personally at 14' I'd go 150" screen. Of course you may have to get creative with the subs location maybe even building new boxes that line the bottom of the stage.
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post #110 of 160 Old 07-01-2015, 01:23 PM
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QSC is great. JBL is great. 4722 or 2150 both rock.

Flip a coin.

Because he has (5) DSi JBL screen array amps he should get the JBL and run them active. The choice is not dependent on the QSC being lesser, choice is just more practical and better over all.

If he did not have DSi cinema amps already- conversation would be different.

He should have reach this conclusion a long time ago. It's almost common sense. Too much mental masturbation. Get out your credit card already.

He should be giving the same amount of attention to his room design and plan. Speakers are a secondary priority.

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post #111 of 160 Old 07-01-2015, 01:24 PM
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You can't go wrong with this as seriously everyone seem to love this speaker. Of course I'd try and go baffle wall which also should help imaging and cohesion. Personally at 14' I'd go 150" screen. Of course you may have to get creative with the subs location maybe even building new boxes that line the bottom of the stage.
He thinks 135" is too big

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post #112 of 160 Old 07-01-2015, 01:30 PM
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He thinks 135" is too big



I had 135" at 15' and thought it was too small..LOL..ohh well!
I'd love to hear the 4722 vs 2150... well I say that, unless the 4722 was superior.. then I'd have to sell.

And I agree 100% if the room sucks so does the sound...no matter how good the speakers are!
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post #113 of 160 Old 07-01-2015, 07:04 PM
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My limited experience says the JBL 3677 is an insane speaker for the price, I've owned it and loved it. However I'm sure the 4722 is better , however 2x better I highly doubt and find that statement crazy as the 3677 is damn good.

Basically I see a ton of people suggesting what they own.....
I own both the 3677 and the 4722. Yes, for mid $500's the 3677 is an insane speaker compared to what you would get from any vendor in the mid $500's. I 100% agree with that. However, the 4722 is worth 2x the price. I have had them in the same room with the same amps, and I would go to my grave with no reservation that the 4722 is 2x better. I would say it is 10x better - seriously. With that said, it isn't like we are talking about a $10k speaker vs a $5k speaker. We are talking about a $1k and $500 speaker. Both are absolutely stupid bargains. I see what ID companies like RA, PSA, Swan, SVS, Ascend etc offer in this price range. I also see what commercial companies offer in this range. I am 100% confident, either of these Pro Cinema speakers will trounce anything in the $1k class from any vendor. There isn't much under $10k that will best the 4722. I have been an avid home theater/audio enthusiast since the 80s'. I have heard all kinds of speakers from those that I could afford to those I could only dream about owning. The 4722 is that good. In the $1k market, it really isn't a fair competition to be honest. Any speaker costing $1050 delivered compared to the 4722 would be like a brawl between Mike Tyson and Pee Wee Herman in 1987.
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post #114 of 160 Old 07-01-2015, 08:42 PM
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I own both the 3677 and the 4722. Yes, for mid $500's the 3677 is an insane speaker compared to what you would get from any vendor in the mid $500's. I 100% agree with that. However, the 4722 is worth 2x the price. I have had them in the same room with the same amps, and I would go to my grave with no reservation that the 4722 is 2x better. I would say it is 10x better - seriously. With that said, it isn't like we are talking about a $10k speaker vs a $5k speaker. We are talking about a $1k and $500 speaker. Both are absolutely stupid bargains. I see what ID companies like RA, PSA, Swan, SVS, Ascend etc offer in this price range. I also see what commercial companies offer in this range. I am 100% confident, either of these Pro Cinema speakers will trounce anything in the $1k class from any vendor. There isn't much under $10k that will best the 4722. I have been an avid home theater/audio enthusiast since the 80s'. I have heard all kinds of speakers from those that I could afford to those I could only dream about owning. The 4722 is that good. In the $1k market, it really isn't a fair competition to be honest. Any speaker costing $1050 delivered compared to the 4722 would be like a brawl between Mike Tyson and Pee Wee Herman in 1987.

If you think the performance is 2x as good the 4722 must be insane. I'd love to hear it. I was primarily referring to the fact no one has heard the qsc cenima stuff but has opinions on what's better, when in reality if you haven't even heard it, especially blind tested in the same room you have no idea what's better. Like I said, the same comments newbies make. .
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post #115 of 160 Old 07-02-2015, 02:47 AM
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What we need is a battle between QSC 1120 vs JBL 3677.
Any QSC 1120 users in avsforum?
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post #116 of 160 Old 07-02-2015, 02:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemonslush View Post
qsc sounds sweet probably my favorite sounding amp.
Which QSC amps? How's the internal fan noise? Fan noise quieter than DSi?
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post #117 of 160 Old 07-02-2015, 03:31 AM
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The qsc is a cx-254 4 channel amp. I hope it would sound nice as it sells for
$1600. It's a perm install amp like the DSI and the fan is pretty loud moves a lot of air. Doesn't bother me as it's on my second rack which sits in a separate knee room closed off from the theater.

The DSI fan only turns on when it gets to a certain temp. I only hear it turn on after watch two movies in a row and it's still pretty quiet.
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post #118 of 160 Old 07-02-2015, 04:38 AM
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Several months ago I had a guy (avilon74) asking me via PM about the 1120,3677 etc. He went with the 1120. He's had them for a while now and I asked him how he liked them. He went on and on about the sound, great vocals, blows everything else away etc. however he did state on a 2nd email that he wished they were a little better with music. He said they rocked with dynamic music like hip hop etc but I guess he mean audiophile type stuff. As far as the 3677 goes I enjoyed it with everything.

As far as theater and xcurve..The goal in theater has always been a flat response or one that sounds good. And remember the 3677 doesn't have a true x-curve. A true xcurve begins falling at 2k. A speaker that has a -3 @12k is still pretty flat and many can't even hear past 12k and to my ears the 3677 has great high end IMO.

What has changed in theater are the rooms. Decades ago they used the xcurve to make speakers easier to tune to a huge room full of reflections (echo chamber)which boosted the high end so they dropped the high end in the crossover. Of course now days the rooms are well treated, but they have been for some time. Like I said the 3677 doesn't have the old school xcurve. I don't remember how much the true xcurve drops per octave starting at 2k but a true xcurve would be in the dirt by 12k.
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post #119 of 160 Old 07-02-2015, 06:19 AM
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Why do so many threads on AVS turn into negativity. This is supposed to fun and is in no way important in the grand scheme of life.

Until there is a well designed shootout between JBL and QSC all conjecture is mental masturbation. While fun, it is non-productive. Even with a blind shootout, it in no way can be assured the results are valid across different listening environments and panelists.

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post #120 of 160 Old 07-02-2015, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdy2179 View Post
Several months ago I had a guy (avilon74) asking me via PM about the 1120,3677 etc. He went with the 1120. He's had them for a while now and I asked him how he liked them. He went on and on about the sound, great vocals, blows everything else away etc. however he did state on a 2nd email that he wished they were a little better with music. He said they rocked with dynamic music like hip hop etc but I guess he mean audiophile type stuff. As far as the 3677 goes I enjoyed it with everything.

As far as theater and xcurve..The goal in theater has always been a flat response or one that sounds good. And remember the 3677 doesn't have a true x-curve. A true xcurve begins falling at 2k. A speaker that has a -3 @12k is still pretty flat and many can't even hear past 12k and to my ears the 3677 has great high end IMO.

What has changed in theater are the rooms. Decades ago they used the xcurve to make speakers easier to tune to a huge room full of reflections (echo chamber)which boosted the high end so they dropped the high end in the crossover. Of course now days the rooms are well treated, but they have been for some time. Like I said the 3677 doesn't have the old school xcurve. I don't remember how much the true xcurve drops per octave starting at 2k but a true xcurve would be in the dirt by 12k.
The most recent issue of Widescreen Review has a great article on the X-curve. Seems that it resulted from some pretty shoddy research by one person who had lots of influence. More recent studies have shown his conclusions false and that the X-curve should never be used in even large theater design. Perhaps the AES will revise based on better studies, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

So, nothing has really changed in science and engineering in the intervening years (name recognition leads to to much acceptance of conclusions drawn from a data set).

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