$1500 max budget for speakers & sub. any recommendations??? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 232 Old 06-25-2013, 03:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

I dont understand why they even make them 4 ohm. Whats the advantage? Is it really just so they can sell more amps? That would seem kinda stupid.

The guy is circulating misinformation..

http://www.eu.onkyo.com/downloads/2/0/6/3/1/Manual_TX-NR414_En.pdf

page En-76

"Dynamic Power*
* IEC60268-Short-term maximum output power
180 W (3 Ω, Front)
160 W (4 Ω, Front)
100 W (8 Ω, Front)

This is a more realistic characterization of the performance of the receiver while amplifying music than test bench ratings based on steady-state full power sine waves. Music has from 1/3 to 1/10 of the average power as those sine waves. Since an average audio system requires no more than 50 wpc to achieve reference levels with a 20 dB reserve, there is little chance of problems.
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post #92 of 232 Old 06-25-2013, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

False claim:

http://www.eu.onkyo.com/downloads/2/0/6/3/1/Manual_TX-NR414_En.pdf

page En-76

180 W (3 Ω, Front)
160 W (4 Ω, Front)
100 W (8 Ω, Front)

1 Channel dynamic power at 4 ohm is what your saying is certified and would have no problem running a 5 channel low efficient low impedance speaker setup at any output the OP wants? And the Onkyo 414 will breeze right through it with no issues?

For continous power output Front L/R, Center and Surrounds it only gives 8ohms and 6ohms

Also for speaker Impedance it states 6-16ohm while the larger more power Onkyo receivers lists 4ohms 16ohms.

http://www.onkyousa.com/Products/model.php?m=TX-NR414&class=Receiver&source=prodClass
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post #93 of 232 Old 06-25-2013, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Theres got to be a better reason for building a low impedance speaker other than wanting to be able to fudge the sensitivity rating.

Theres nothing wrong with making a low impedance/low sensitivity speaker. The problem comes up when they try to pass those low efficience speakers off as having a high SPL from using dishonest marketing measurements.
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post #94 of 232 Old 06-25-2013, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

Theres nothing wrong with making a low impedance/low sensitivity speaker. The problem comes up when they try to pass those low efficience speakers off as having a high SPL from using dishonest marketing measurements.
But if a lot of these middle of the line modern avr will have problems pushing them it seems like a very niche product.

No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die!
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post #95 of 232 Old 06-25-2013, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

But if a lot of these middle of the line modern avr will have problems pushing them it seems like a very niche product.

The thing is, the middle of the line AVRs probably won't have problems running these speakers. If you play some heavy duty stuff at reference levels for a long time, you might have a problem. In normal use you would probably be OK. If the speakers have some real nasty impedance dips in a frequently used band, that would also be a cause for concern.
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post #96 of 232 Old 06-25-2013, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

1 Channel dynamic power at 4 ohm is what your saying is certified and would have no problem running a 5 channel low efficient low impedance speaker setup at any output the OP wants? And the Onkyo 414 will breeze right through it with no issues?

+1

Because Onkyos have a reputation of running hot, they are probably the last receiver brand I would choose to use a 5.0 4 ohm speaker set with. Particularly since they have historically been known to have overheating issues.

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post #97 of 232 Old 06-29-2013, 09:51 AM
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There has been a lot of discussion about Hsu, Arx and Ascend speakers, but how do HTD or EmpTek compare to these. They seem to be around the same price.
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post #98 of 232 Old 06-29-2013, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

...what many do is gravitate towards a speaker with great inaccurate measurements instead of the one that doesn't look great but is accurate and truthful.

It's said that the two reasons for not, in effect, marketing a speaker by its measurements is that either those measurements are bad or they don't exist. There's a third: To simply not market a speaker by its measurements. In the case of a lot of makers this is deliberate.

Comparing measurements is to compare a speaker to another speaker, and only in small part. To compare speakers by listening is still to compare speakers. To really get to know a speaker over a month in your own system is the only way to compare it not to the sound of another device, but to the sound of nature.

Your ears know even if you may think you do not. You do not tell them what to hear; they tell you what they're witnessing, which is exactly why they're there. The rest of what you find published is either marketspeak or potentially informative limited data, but it's not going to tell you if you've hit your own standards in your own system.

With regard to SPL and impedance measurements, they on the other hand are pretty darn absolute. So are Ohm's Law and the nearest calibrated microphone. The terms efficiency and sensitivity are also absolute as well as not interchangeable. For example, a 4 ohm woofer typically sinks double the current from the amplifier of its 8 ohm counterpart, lifting the sensitivity of the 4 ohm part by a whopping 3dB. Their efficiencies are tied to system size and here they'll be the same.

Impedance has much to do with loudness because it regulates current. When a modern amplifier - at least a good amplifier, which is why we always recommend high current designs - delivers twice the current into half the impedance naturally it doubles the speaker's relative volume. This may be fine and good but remember to derate the 4 ohm speaker's low power sensitivity by 3dB when comparing. Electrically the penalty is over on the loud of the volume scale, where since free lunches don't exist, the lower impedance system just runs the amplifier out of steam 3dB lower on the amplifier's volume scale. Same amplifier, very nearly the same maximum level, and no net advantage whatsoever, except that all the while the amplifier is much closer to its discomfort zone and is making what could be a lot more heat.

System size also strongly affects loudness, which is why I recommend one be aware when comparing two systems of different size, such as a simple 5.25" based 2-way speaker to a 6.5" based 2-way. The larger system always has the efficiency advantage and its numbers should show it in some realistic ratio of more F3 and more efficiency - more bass and/or more loudness at the same amplifier current setting.

Because they are complex, relative, and incomplete, measurements are not absolute to your reaction to the sound of the output of a loudspeaker. On the other hand, certain of that same speaker's important foundational parameters are reliably predictable because they relate to more elemental, numerical terms like simple relative current flow. Ohm's Law rules okay.

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post #99 of 232 Old 06-29-2013, 11:01 AM
 
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You do NOT want Ascends for your home theatre. They are simply NOT full range speakers. If you want full range, Hsu do them the best. Then the Arx I suppose.

The Ascends will NEVER fill your room. Even the Towers.

There was a thread on this forum not so long ago where a member said he was extremely dissapointed with the Energy RC-70's. He said no matter how much he cranked them up his room never got filled. I started off with Energy speakers and I know exactly what he's talking about. OFcourse I eventually sold them and tried out the Ascends, then took the Ascends back and eventually settled for the Hsu's.

Ascends are pretty much like Energy's with better detail and clarity and bass control. But again, they are laid back speakers and will never satify you when it comes to movie viewing.

For desktop close range 2.0 system, I would recommend the Ascends.
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post #100 of 232 Old 06-29-2013, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian323 View Post

You do NOT want Ascends for your home theatre. They are simply NOT full range speakers. If you want full range, Hsu do them the best. Then the Arx I suppose.

What? You never actually had the Ascends setup for HT usage in your home. There are plenty of testimonials from people with 5.0 Ascend setups like this one that completely contradict what you have said: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1478626/ascend-acoustic-5-1-setup-review

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post #101 of 232 Old 06-29-2013, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian323 View Post

The Ascends will NEVER fill your room. Even the Towers.

My towers are fantastic for HT and easily fill my room, which is bigger than the OP's. Have you heard the towers??

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post #102 of 232 Old 06-29-2013, 11:54 AM
 
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What? You never actually had the Ascends setup for HT usage in your home. There are plenty of testimonials from people with 5.0 Ascend setups like this one that completely contradict what you have said: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1478626/ascend-acoustic-5-1-setup-review

I had them for 4 days in my home before returning them. The ones that did the review prabably never heard the Hsu's. There was a member that did a review on this forum between the Arx and the Ascends and he himself described the Ascends having a "wall of sound" no matter how much he cranked them up.I assume by wall of sound he means laid back and never filling the whole room. When I heard the ascends and had em cranked up I knew EXACTLY what he was talking about. They are simply close range speakers and will never give you a full range FULL sound. (this is a different member btw from the initial post)

Eventually he ended up using the Ascends for sorrounds and Arx (since Arx's are more long range and full) as the front's.

If you were to go back to the post, I said the Hsu's have the largest soundstage then the Arx, then the Ascends. He himself never heard the Hsu's and I would guess if he heard the Hsu's he would use his Arx as sorrounds and send the Ascends back or use it for close rfange computer desktop speakers.
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post #103 of 232 Old 06-29-2013, 11:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

My towers are fantastic for HT and easily fill my room, which is bigger than the OP's. Have you heard the towers??

I heard the towers with NrT installed at their demo room. I was impressed with them on detail, clarity and transperancy. The Hsu's still are a level above the towers when it comes to soundstage and filling of the room.

If you like the laid back speakers, go for em. I personally like full range speakers for hometheatre movies.
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post #104 of 232 Old 06-29-2013, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian323 View Post

The Hsu's still are a level above the towers when it comes to soundstage and filling of the room.

I heard the HSUs at a friend's house and they're great little speakers for the price. Were you able to compare these to the towers in the same room? Also-are you running the HSUs full range with or without subs for HT?

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post #105 of 232 Old 06-29-2013, 01:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

I heard the HSUs at a friend's house and they're great little speakers for the price. Were you able to compare these to the towers in the same room? Also-are you running the HSUs full range with or without subs for HT?

I dont have a sub currently but I am picking up a VTF2-MK4 on Monday for a 4.1 set up. Picking up a center in early August. GOnna run phantom center for full month.

Does your friend have a 5.1 Hsu set up?

I was NOT able to do a 1 room comparison with Ascend Towers and Hsu's. Ascends in Towers with NrT also costs 3x as much.
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post #106 of 232 Old 06-29-2013, 01:58 PM
 
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Also, for the OP, although it may be too late i would REALLY go with Hsu's all around. Forget the Beringers for the sorround. You really want to stick to the same tweeter type to match sonically all around and the only speakers that would match sonically to the Hsu's.. are more Hsu's.
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post #107 of 232 Old 06-29-2013, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian323 View Post

I had them for 4 days in my home before returning them.

No you didn't. You told everyone you had two of the CBM-170 SEs in your house, not a full 5.0 setup, and apparently did not compare the speakers directly with the HSUs, which apparently you still don't have a full HSU 5.0 setup. And before that, you were telling everyone how great the CBM-170 SEs were. Then you were also telling everyone in the subwoofer forum that there is no sense in spending more than $300 on a subwoofer and argued it for pages. For example,
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If the cost of the Rythmics and Outlaws and the high end subwoofers cost 3 x as much as a normal subwoofer (like a BIC or any other sort in $250 price point) then I seriously think its a waste of money wasting buying ANY subwoofer that is above $300 price point.

Now you are planning to buy an HSU VTF-3 MK4 or a VTF-15H, according to the end of that thread.
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The ones that did the review prabably never heard the Hsu's.

Doesn't matter whether they did or not. You have claimed that the speakers are no good for HT, and yet many others have found that they are. Exaggerated generalizations like that do not help anyone.

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post #108 of 232 Old 06-29-2013, 03:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

No you didn't. You told everyone you had two of the CBM-170 SEs in your house, not a full 5.0 setup, and apparently did not compare the speakers directly with the HSUs, which apparently you still don't have a full HSU 5.0 setup. And before that, you were telling everyone how great the CBM-170 SEs were. Then you were also telling everyone in the subwoofer forum that there is no sense in spending more than $300 on a subwoofer and argued it for pages. For example,
Now you are planning to buy an HSU VTF-3 MK4 or a VTF-15H, according to the end of that thread.
rolleyes.gif
Doesn't matter whether they did or not. You have claimed that the speakers are no good for HT, and yet many others have found that they are. Exaggerated generalizations like that do not help anyone.

Dude it dosent matter if i revised what I said prior. Techs get upgraded all the time and opinions change all the time when a new tech or "speakers" comes out that beats the prior one in value and performance.

Like I have mentioned previously I am comparing 2 Hsu's to 2 Ascend CBM 170SE in my room. Hsu sound far better than the CBM170SE. And I have heard the Ascend towers and overall the Ascends are laid-back speakers which I do NOT recommend for movie viewing. For close range desktop 2.0 system I think its fine.

I actually asked a member here whether a sub is THAT important to a speaker and he himself agreed that speakers should be invested more than a sub so I am getting a VTF2-MK4 instead of the VTF15H.

Leave the Subwoofer thread out of this. If you are talking about creditinals, you have not heard neither so might as well not make YOUR opinion so strong based on READING some reviews. I have HEARD them in my own room (yes exprienced both) and Hsu's are better hands down for HT.
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post #109 of 232 Old 06-29-2013, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian323 View Post

And I have heard the Ascend towers and overall the Ascends are laid-back speakers which I do NOT recommend for movie viewing. For close range desktop 2.0 system I think its fine.

hmmm...
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post #110 of 232 Old 06-29-2013, 06:58 PM
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... sigh...

for the OP, even without input for the last 4 days...
The Hsu's are great speakers, in my opinion. I have a full 5.2 HSU set-up, and am very happy with it. My final decision was between the Ascends and the Hsus, and I truly think I wouldn't be unhappy with either. They are both very capable speakers, from very reputable ID vendors. I haven't personally heard the Ascends, as that isn't what I went with, but the hundreds of positive comments (for both brands) can't all be wrong.

The 'full-range' ability of either is MOOT if you'll be using a subwoofer. Period. I know the Hsu's do a very respectable job without one, but that is only because I took a pair with me on vacation,( but didn't have room in the minivan to bring a VTF3 as well !...wifey thought I was nuts as it is, but they weren't for her eek.gif) along with an Onkyo mini-shelf unit reciever, capable of something like 35 - 50 watts, and they did a fantastic job in our beach-side vacation rental.

I truly feel either the Ascends or the Hsu's will give you a big fat biggrin.gif. I do know that you'll find very few negative comments about either, and you don't see either pop up on the used market very often. There must be something to that... I dunno... satisfied owners? wink.gif

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post #111 of 232 Old 06-29-2013, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian323 View Post

Like I have mentioned previously I am comparing 2 Hsu's to 2 Ascend CBM 170SE in my room. Hsu sound far better than the CBM170SE. And I have heard the Ascend towers and overall the Ascends are laid-back speakers which I do NOT recommend for movie viewing.

Ummm...The Ascends are not really "laid-back" speakers so much as fairly neutral speakers. This in contrast to the HSU which have a slightly less linear response with peaks in the upper midbass, the mids and the lower treble. Since most of us use Audyssey, YPAO, or MCACC to smooth the frequency response in our room, a neutral response is desirable--it's what most people are aiming for.

Meanwhile, you have told us you are using some Pioneer DSP surround setting to make your pair of HSU's sound good:
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My only issue with HSU's were that they sounded they were too close system (like in a theatre) but later realized that a preset from my reciever (pioneer 1121K) from lets say "stereo" to "sports" took away alot of warmth and kept it live. So ultimately I decided to buy a pair of rosewood HB1's today.

Most people using 5.1 HT setups will likely not be using such a setting. So sure. Nothing wrong with saying that the HSUs sounded better to you in your living room with your setup and DSP enhancements. But that does not mean that the Ascends are bad for HT. Just not right for you in your room with your listening preferences.

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post #112 of 232 Old 06-29-2013, 10:46 PM
 
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I disagree because I have listened to both the Ascends and HSU at their OWN demo rooms as well. And clearly the Hsu's sounded better in comparison for movies and Hsu's also sounded better in my own room.

There are other members on this forum who have ruled out the Ascends compared to Arx and Hsu's.

If you are gonna read reviews from Ascend owners that have NEVER heard the Hsu's or Arx's ofcourse they are gonna say the Ascends sound the best. It does fairly well in detail and clarity.

But I am willing to bet once they do a comparison with the Hsu's and Arx's they wont go back to Ascends for Home theatre Movie viewing period.
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post #113 of 232 Old 06-29-2013, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian323 View Post

I disagree because I have listened to both the Ascends and HSU at their OWN demo rooms as well. And clearly the Hsu's sounded better in comparison for movies and Hsu's also sounded better in my own room.

There are other members on this forum who have ruled out the Ascends compared to Arx and Hsu's.

If you are gonna read reviews from Ascend owners that have NEVER heard the Hsu's or Arx's ofcourse they are gonna say the Ascends sound the best. It does fairly well in detail and clarity.

But I am willing to bet once they do a comparison with the Hsu's and Arx's they wont go back to Ascends for Home theatre Movie viewing period.

Or perhaps they would disagree with you and still prefer the Ascend speakers... What a crazy thought, I know.
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post #114 of 232 Old 06-29-2013, 11:20 PM
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But I am willing to bet once they do a comparison with the Hsu's and Arx's they wont go back to Ascends for Home theatre Movie viewing period.

You already predicted you would get tired of the HSU sound. Let's see if that happens after you have a full set:
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I think for a person that watches T.V once or twice a week and strictly movies, the HSU's will be perfect, otherwise one should look into the Acsends instead.

The WOW factor the warm, big, forward speakers bring will be gone after the first few times and eventually youll be with a closed system without much dynamics.

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post #115 of 232 Old 06-29-2013, 11:31 PM
 
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Will have a 4.1 system on Monday. I am almost certain I will go with a Hsu VTF2 Mk4 for the sub. Will leave feedback.

As far as the that comment I posted awhile back in regarding "close system" speakers, (the Hsu's) another member that bought both the Arx's and Ascends called the Arx's "Studio-feel" speakers.

I think we were both trying to say they have great soundstage and are full range speakers. ANd ofcourse, that same member ended up using the Ascends for sorrounds and Arx's as fronts.

And also, there are presets on recievers that make speakers "thinner" or "lively" depending on modes... so again Hsu's are a clear winner.
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post #116 of 232 Old 06-29-2013, 11:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by alphaiii View Post

Or perhaps they would disagree with you and still prefer the Ascend speakers... What a crazy thought, I know.


I have never read anywhere on any forums who chose Ascends over Hsu's or Arx's that actually had the chance to do a real listening of all 3.
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post #117 of 232 Old 06-30-2013, 12:06 AM
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I personally respect Brians preference. I am pretty sure there are people who prefer the ascend too. Choices choices choices.
What i really think is that they could be both good speakers.
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post #118 of 232 Old 06-30-2013, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian323 View Post

As far as the that comment I posted awhile back in regarding "close system" speakers, (the Hsu's) another member that bought both the Arx's and Ascends called the Arx's "Studio-feel" speakers.

I think we were both trying to say they have great soundstage and are full range speakers. ANd ofcourse, that same member ended up using the Ascends for sorrounds and Arx's as fronts.

First, full range refers to frequency response. Energy Takes would not be called full range because they require a sub to produce midbass. The Ascends, Arx, and HSU are all considered full range.

Then, studio speakers do not have to have a big soundstage. They are meant for monitoring audio production and are generally used nearfield. And actually, you are mixing up what the other person said,
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Originally Posted by padgman1 View Post

The Ascends sound warmer here without being overly bright. The Arxs sound somewhat darker and more studio-like.......not filtered, but as if the music is being piped in from the recording studio room. . . .The best statement I can make here is both sets reproduce the feeling of the music of the time/ material played well. The Ascends have a slightly more "live" feel and the Arxs a slightly more "studio" feel. Pick your preference.

My guess is that a "live" feel would be more presence in terms of soundstage.
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Originally Posted by Brian323 View Post

ANd ofcourse, that same member ended up using the Ascends for sorrounds and Arx's as fronts.

That's not exactly what he said either. What he said contradicts your previous statement about the Ascends lacking in soundstage in comparison to the Arx. And he didn't actually end up using them as surrounds, but indicated that is what he might do in the future:
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Originally Posted by padgman1 View Post

The Ascends tend to fill the room more at comparative volumes. . . . I like the Ascend's brighter sound compared to the Arxs, especially with TV dialogue.....easier to hear at medium volumes ( now, these Ascends are not overtly bright, just brighter sounding than the Arxs........). . . .Eventually I can see the Ascends as rear/surrounds "+" speakers in a 5.1 system with the Arxs as L/R fronts, but using both sets as mains when watching TV ( as the crowd noise eminating from the Ascends at close range from behind would be highly energetic)...........

Bottom line: You can't go wrong with EITHER set of speakers.......it comes down to listener preference, as both Darkpoet and Buford have noted........just glad I have BOTH biggrin.gif

In the future, if you are going to reference someone else, how about providing us a link instead of misattributing what someone else said and twisting things around? rolleyes.gif

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post #119 of 232 Old 06-30-2013, 12:57 AM
 
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I am not twisting anything. If you read further into the the actual thread, at the very last of few posts, the OP stated clearly that he is using Arx as the mains and Ascends as the sorrounds. If you can find the thread please post the link of the thread here so that others can actually read the whole thread.

Mind you, my opinion of the matter is mostly about comparing the Hsu's over the Ascends, and Hsu's are better in my opinion.

The OP clearly stated he gets a feel of "wall of sound" at high volume. Wall means stationary in literal term, therefore cannot be full range since full range in any definition requires motion or moving sound of the whole room, therefore

Wall of Sound = NOT FULL RANGE. (maybe on paper)

I have heard the Energy speakers. I have heard the RC-70's at local Frys and CB-10's and CC-10's. The RC-70's are good speakers. But they are laid back. Good for music, but I dont think they are good for home theatre movies.

Refer to the post that recommended the Berringers as the sorrounds on this very thread. Then do the research on berringers , then you will come to a post where a owner of both the berringers and the Ascends commented they sound exactly alike.

Again, failure for front stage audio.
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post #120 of 232 Old 06-30-2013, 01:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian323 View Post

I am not twisting anything. If you read further into the the actual thread, at the very last of few posts, the OP stated clearly that he is using Arx as the mains and Ascends as the sorrounds.

Click the link button in the posts I just quoted. It's right there.



And I just quoted the relevant text where he talked about that toward the end of the thread. Did you read the quote???? And don't tell me to read the thread. Mine is the 4th from the last post in that thread, right after the one I quoted.
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Originally Posted by Brian323 View Post

The OP clearly stated he gets a feel of "wall of sound" at high volume. . . .

. . . then you will come to a post where a owner of both the berringers and the Ascends commented they sound exactly alike.

If you want to reference someone else, provide the quote. Otherwise, it's just hearsay.

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