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post #61 of 81 Old 06-18-2013, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

It was found out later that the level matching device/method was flawed for this comparison. The signal was attenuated at the output end of the amplifier and not the input end. The attenuation device didn't even use an L-pad.

You have obviously devoted a very significant portion of your life to being an advocate for your favorite speaker brand here at AVS and other forums, almost to the point of being a one man rapid response team arriving on the scene with what you feel is the definitive rebuttal (much like George Stephanopoulos was to the '92 Clinton campaign) anytime, Heaven forbid, someone actually likes some other speaker more than your brand of choice (Congrats on openly getting a piece of the action now BTW). I'm sure you long ago couldn't keep up with who all you've been round and round about this with over the years, but I already very well knew exactly what your position is on it and was actually expecting this response from you just as soon as you saw it, because anytime this is mentioned you will soon show up to make a post very similar to the one quoted above (even though I thought most of the controversy generated from one particular brand's followers was more because of the Aculines vs the 340s comparison since there's really no shame in losing to a great speaker like the 2.1 SE). You've also already gone through it with me before starting right here (the link is embedded within the quote by clicking on the right-facing green arrow just to the right of the poster's screen name):
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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

Swan diva 2.1SE beat out the Sierras a few years ago in a blind test.

Back then, I was more hesitant to have a hand in derailing a thread, so I let it go at the time. Now, I'm not so hesitant anymore after seeing that's pretty much the standard decorum here, so I will now go back at you as I originally wanted to on that thread about this.

Just two questions I had from that exchange then:
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

BTW, I contacted the manufacturer of that switch...and an L-pad was not used.


Did you compare all three speakers at the same time, same room, and equipment?

First of all, not that it really even matters all that much anyway, but since it seems to be the entire basis on your "prosecution" of this comparison, do you actually have any proof that you contacted the switch manufacturer and that they confirmed a L-pad was not used, or are we just take your word as Gospel even though you are unwilling to accept craigsub's word despite the fact that he had no vested interest in it at the time as you clearly do now (if not then too)? FTR - "copy & paste" of an easily editable alleged e-mail exchange or mentioning a phone call that supposedly took place do not meet my criteria of irrefutable proof.

Secondly, I want to re-direct the very question you asked me right back at you - did you hear all the speakers mentioned there on that thread all at the same time in the same room and on the same equipment? Just to refresh your memory, the 3 speakers were the Swans D2.1se, the Sierras, and the NHT Threes.
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post #62 of 81 Old 06-18-2013, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

with the op not using a sub them bookshelf swans wont hold a candle to the polks floorstander bass output...I highly doubt they could match the output of the rti-a3 bookshelf. please show me a graph of your swans extending to 30hz?

Dude, seriously? The RTiA3? Really? This clearly shows you know nothing about the D21.SEs and have never heard them before.

FWIW, I have heard various Polk RTis before, including the RTi8, RTi12, and an older powered tower, the RTi1000 I believe it was. In fact, I know someone who had a surround system of them, but when he heard my Revels, he ditched the RTis, and to this day they still sit in his garage because he's rather for them to sit there than to sell them for the puny resale value they command.

D2.1 SE @ 36 Hz
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post #63 of 81 Old 06-23-2013, 04:24 PM - Thread Starter
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OP here. Yes, I was quiet, but I was reading. Thanks for all the suggestions.

I got some Polk RTi a3s from Fry's, mostly because they're so easy to return. I did return them after a few hours. Their bass was louder than my Advents, but the Advent bass sounds like bass, while the a3 bass sounded like something echoing around in a hard room. I did like the way that the a3s handled multiple instruments at the same time. My Advents have a way of producing single sound in that situation; with the a3s I could hear the individual instruments better.

I'll try one of the more common suggestions next, perhaps the Aviano 6s, or, in deference to my wife, one of the ones that are between bookshelves and towers. I'm sure we'll find something. Meanwhile, I'm sitting here admiring the beautiful cabinets of the Advents, and wondering why modern speakers look so plasticky and cheap, sound notwithstanding.
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post #64 of 81 Old 06-23-2013, 04:38 PM
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I think the Polk LSi9 are $299 at Frys, check them out!

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post #65 of 81 Old 06-23-2013, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by 65 Electra Glide View Post

Dude, seriously? The RTiA3? Really? This clearly shows you know nothing about the D21.SEs and have never heard them before.

FWIW, I have heard various Polk RTis before, including the RTi8, RTi12, and an older powered tower, the RTi1000 I believe it was. In fact, I know someone who had a surround system of them, but when he heard my Revels, he ditched the RTis, and to this day they still sit in his garage because he's rather for them to sit there than to sell them for the puny resale value they command.

D2.1 SE @ 36 Hz

Have you herd the rti-a3? you do realize the room plays a big factor on how a speakers sounds. so unless he brought the rti's over to your room to compare with your revels, that comparison means very little.
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post #66 of 81 Old 06-24-2013, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by 65 Electra Glide View Post

You have obviously devoted a very significant portion of your life to being an advocate for your favorite speaker brand here at AVS and other forums, almost to the point of being a one man rapid response team arriving on the scene with what you feel is the definitive rebuttal (much like George Stephanopoulos was to the '92 Clinton campaign) anytime, Heaven forbid, someone actually likes some other speaker more than your brand of choice (Congrats on openly getting a piece of the action now BTW). I'm sure you long ago couldn't keep up with who all you've been round and round about this with over the years, but I already very well knew exactly what your position is on it and was actually expecting this response from you just as soon as you saw it, because anytime this is mentioned you will soon show up to make a post very similar to the one quoted above (even though I thought most of the controversy generated from one particular brand's followers was more because of the Aculines vs the 340s comparison since there's really no shame in losing to a great speaker like the 2.1 SE). You've also already gone through it with me before starting right here (the link is embedded within the quote by clicking on the right-facing green arrow just to the right of the poster's screen name):
Back then, I was more hesitant to have a hand in derailing a thread, so I let it go at the time. Now, I'm not so hesitant anymore after seeing that's pretty much the standard decorum here, so I will now go back at you as I originally wanted to on that thread about this.

Just two questions I had from that exchange then:
First of all, not that it really even matters all that much anyway, but since it seems to be the entire basis on your "prosecution" of this comparison, do you actually have any proof that you contacted the switch manufacturer and that they confirmed a L-pad was not used, or are we just take your word as Gospel even though you are unwilling to accept craigsub's word despite the fact that he had no vested interest in it at the time as you clearly do now (if not then too)? FTR - "copy & paste" of an easily editable alleged e-mail exchange or mentioning a phone call that supposedly took place do not meet my criteria of irrefutable proof.

Secondly, I want to re-direct the very question you asked me right back at you - did you hear all the speakers mentioned there on that thread all at the same time in the same room and on the same equipment? Just to refresh your memory, the 3 speakers were the Swans D2.1se, the Sierras, and the NHT Threes.
Answer to your first question....
You can ask craigsub himself, but then again, that wouldn't be much proof. If I dug up the email and sent it to you, would that be enough proof? Nope, because you could easily say that the email was not real(like you already mentioned). If I told you who to call and ask about the device, would that suffice? After I confirmed with them about that lack of an L-pad, and then started asking questions as to why, my emails were no longer returned. I used to have a good relationship with that company, but because of this device, and asking questions about it, I burned that bridge. Actually, none of this is real proof unless you can verify it some way, correct? So tell me what you would like to see.

Answer to your second question....
I have heard the D2.1SE and the Sierra-1 side by side, in my room...the NHT Threes were not in this group. I have heard the NHT Threes and CMT-340SEs, also in my room, side by side...the Sierra-1 or the D2.1SE were not yet available. Also, to be clear, I had the Acculine and my CMT-340SE in my room, side by side, trying to replicate the difference in levels and level matching that craigsub reported.

So, please sincerely answer these two questions for me:
If you knew what my position was, do you have issue with me posting it?

Second, what do you consider to be a "piece of the pie"?

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post #67 of 81 Old 06-24-2013, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by HalPri View Post

Hi,

My earlier attempt to get a wood-grained subwoofer that met my wife's decor requirements did not succeed. In fact, our listening room (living room) is smallish, maybe 24x12, and a sub is very prominent, wood-grained or not.

So now I am seeking recommendations for left and right speakers at around $500 for the pair. I will NOT have a sub (or any other speakers), so they should have reasonable bass. And they cannot be both large (floorstanding) and black. If they are floorstanding sized, they have to have some sort of wood grain, simulated is OK.

We mainly watch movies, but also listen to classical and jazz and rock. We listen at moderate volumes. We don't watch action movies much, and I don't need to hear all the details of the shots and explosions. My receiver is a Marantz, 50w/channel.

I currently have Advent 5012s, and they are OK, but I haven't been able to get them to sound as good as I'd like. I'm considering replacing them.

I was considering Axiom M22s. What else should I be looking at?
l

Spending $500 on speakers and not getting a good entry level sub as part of the package is like shooting yourself in the foot.
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post #68 of 81 Old 06-24-2013, 09:52 AM
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+1 what arnyk said. I'd tell your wife that the knowledgeable folks over at the AVS forum gave you 2 suggestions:

1. Increase the allowed budget

and/or

2. Allow you to buy a sub

Which, being married myself she may offer option #3

3. Move out

So, I think you best bet is to buy used/reconditioned as you can get a better bang for your buck that way. Think Craigslist, Goodwill etc (Don't laugh, see below)

Good luck! Believe me, I totally understand the WAF

I get lucky sometimes since I work as the drive thru attendant at a Goodwill in a very affluent and generous neighborhood, I also test out all the electronics.
Like getting 2 of These & 2 of these For $10.50 with tax yesterday!!! biggrin.gif
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post #69 of 81 Old 06-24-2013, 11:17 AM
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^^ I want no angry wife hunting me down!

I did not contribute to this thread
I did not contribute to this thread
I DID NOT CONTRIBUTE TO THIS THREAD!

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post #70 of 81 Old 06-24-2013, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Dimethios View Post

3. Move out
That, or grow a pair. Women tend to care about looks instead of function. Otherwise why would they buy pair after pair of shoes that hurt their feet? I draw the line when they insist that you share their pain by making you get speakers that look cute and sound like nails across a blackboard. If she won't you buy what you want then insist that she can only have one pair of shoes, and it's these:


Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
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post #71 of 81 Old 06-24-2013, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Answer to your first question....
You can ask craigsub himself, but then again, that wouldn't be much proof. If I dug up the email and sent it to you, would that be enough proof? Nope, because you could easily say that the email was not real(like you already mentioned).

Correct, for example, I could very easily mention supposed phone calls and/or produce copy & paste or even forward alleged e-mail(s) the content of which "proves" that I am currently in simultaneous relationships with both Kate Beckinsale and Kate Bosworth at the same time, but that doesn't necessarily make it true now does it? wink.gif
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If I told you who to call and ask about the device, would that suffice?

Thanks, but no thanks. Truth be told, I really don't care enough about it to spend that much time, effort, & energy on it. I just wanted to see if you had any actual irrefutable proof of your claims since, as already pointed out, that is the entire basis of your disqualification of the whole comparison, and you are not willing to accept others' claims in the same fashion you want us to accept yours.
Quote:
After I confirmed with them about that lack of an L-pad, and then started asking questions as to why, my emails were no longer returned. I used to have a good relationship with that company, but because of this device, and asking questions about it, I burned that bridge. Actually, none of this is real proof unless you can verify it some way, correct? So tell me what you would like to see.

A schematic directly from the manufacturer should suffice, but it looks like that is (conveniently) now off the table. As you yourself asked Kini62 on the other thread when he or she mentioned the comparison - "got a link?"
Quote:
Answer to your second question....
I have heard the D2.1SE and the Sierra-1 side by side, in my room...the NHT Threes were not in this group. I have heard the NHT Threes and CMT-340SEs, also in my room, side by side...the Sierra-1 or the D2.1SE were not yet available.

Even though as it turns I did, then why did you specifically ask me if I had when you didn't yourself? Even you must admit that is a bit of a double standard, is it not?
Quote:
Also, to be clear, I had the Acculine and my CMT-340SE in my room, side by side, trying to replicate the difference in levels and level matching that craigsub reported.

So, please sincerely answer these two questions for me:
If you knew what my position was, do you have issue with me posting it?

Second, what do you consider to be a "piece of the pie"?

Second question first, I'm more than sure you already very well know exactly what I'm talking about, but for the benefit of anyone who doesn't, it's what is in your signature that you are the owner of now, and this thread about it here which the first post of is self explanatory.

First question now - anybody here is obviously free to post whatever they want to so long as it doesn't break any laws or forum rules. If I had an issue with you posting your position on it, I would never bring up the comparison in the first place because as already pointed out, I already know in advance you will soon be making an appearance to try to downplay it for very transparent reasons. What I do have an issue with is someone who is not self aware enough to realize that he (or she) is not holding himself (or herself) accountable to the very same standards that the individual wants to hold others to, and that seems to me to be the case here. Do you have an issue with being challenged to prove your position and claims?

Not on this thread, but you stated elsewhere that it was "interesting" that I don't post the review of the D2.1SE that included the Sierra-1. I assume you obviously mean the one by Clarke Robinson of Enjoy the Music.com here which you had previously linked on the other thread? IMO, that review is no more credible than one posted by any random member here at AVS. It is just the opinion (with absolutely no measurements whatsoever) of one individual, who also happened to already be an owner of a pair of the Sierras and may have had a natural bias because of that, and who admitted that he didn't have the Swans in their best positioning. Even you must admit that is not as credible as a double blind, level matched comparison by a panel.
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post #72 of 81 Old 06-24-2013, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Have you herd the rti-a3? you do realize the room plays a big factor on how a speakers sounds. so unless he brought the rti's over to your room to compare with your revels, that comparison means very little.

I thought the implication was obvious in my post about my friend who had the Polk Rtis now sitting unused in his garage because he didn't want to sell them for no more money than they would bring on the used market, but apparently you didn't catch that, so now I will now spell it out for you as clearly as I can - Revel's now sit in his very same room that the Polks used to. So yes, the comparison is valid, especially to the one it matters to most, the owner of the room.
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post #73 of 81 Old 06-24-2013, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by 65 Electra Glide View Post

Correct, for example, I could very easily mention supposed phone calls and/or produce copy & paste or even forward alleged e-mail(s) the content of which "proves" that I am currently in simultaneous relationships with both Kate Beckinsale and Kate Bosworth at the same time, but that doesn't necessarily make it true now does it? wink.gif


Thanks, but no thanks. Truth be told, I really don't care enough about it to spend that much time, effort, & energy on it. I just wanted to see if you had any actual irrefutable proof of your claims since, as already pointed out, that is the entire basis of your disqualification of the whole comparison, and you are not willing to accept others' claims in the same fashion you want us to accept yours.


A schematic directly from the manufacturer should suffice, but it looks like that is (conveniently) now off the table. As you yourself asked Kini62 on the other thread when he or she mentioned the comparison - "got a link?"
Even though as it turns I did, then why did you specifically ask me if I had when you didn't yourself? Even you must admit that is a bit of a double standard, is it not?
Second question first, I'm more than sure you already very well know exactly what I'm talking about, but for the benefit of anyone who doesn't, it's what is in your signature that you are the owner of now, and this thread about it here which the first post of is self explanatory.

First question now - anybody here is obviously free to post whatever they want to so long as it doesn't break any laws or forum rules. If I had an issue with you posting your position on it, I would never bring up the comparison in the first place because as already pointed out, I already know in advance you will soon be making an appearance to try to downplay it for very transparent reasons. What I do have an issue with is someone who is not self aware enough to realize that he (or she) is not holding himself (or herself) accountable to the very same standards that the individual wants to hold others to, and that seems to me to be the case here. Do you have an issue with being challenged to prove your position and claims?

Not on this thread, but you stated elsewhere that it was "interesting" that I don't post the review of the D2.1SE that included the Sierra-1. I assume you obviously mean the one by Clarke Robinson of Enjoy the Music.com here which you had previously linked on the other thread? IMO, that review is no more credible than one posted by any random member here at AVS. It is just the opinion (with absolutely no measurements whatsoever) of one individual, who also happened to already be an owner of a pair of the Sierras and may have had a natural bias because of that, and who admitted that he didn't have the Swans in their best positioning. Even you must admit that is not as credible as a double blind, level matched comparison by a panel.
Fair enough, although you lost me on one of your points, your positions are noted.

Of course, I am fair game when it comes to questioning my position and claims.

I won't down play anything here. One thing though, I agree there seems to be a double standard.

"Even you must admit that is not as credible as a double blind, level matched comparison by a panel."
Holding to a standard....nobody has ever been able to verify anything that craigsub has ever tested/measured/conducted. He, himself, has never submitted to a blind test conducted outside of his home(BTW, he always uses a family member to do switching). If you call that credible, then OK.

BTW...nobody ever refuted that the device used was flawed.

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post #74 of 81 Old 06-24-2013, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Fair enough, although you lost me on one of your points, your positions are noted.

Of course, I am fair game when it comes to questioning my position and claims.

I won't down play anything here. One thing though, I agree there seems to be a double standard.

"Even you must admit that is not as credible as a double blind, level matched comparison by a panel."
Holding to a standard....nobody has ever been able to verify anything that craigsub has ever tested/measured/conducted. He, himself, has never submitted to a blind test conducted outside of his home(BTW, he always uses a family member to do switching). If you call that credible, then OK.

IMO that's still better than none at all whatsoever, such as in the Robinson review referenced for example. Besides, if any one else was privy to it when it was going on, it would no longer then have been double blind would it?
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BTW...nobody ever refuted that the device used was flawed.

No one has ever refuted that the Easter Bunny, Santa Clause, the tooth fairy, etc. actually do not exist either. wink.gif
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post #75 of 81 Old 06-24-2013, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by 65 Electra Glide View Post

IMO that's still better than none at all whatsoever, such as in the Robinson review referenced for example. Besides, if any one else was privy to it when it was going on, it would no longer then have been double blind would it?
Of course it would be double blind granted the switcher didn't know what was playing. Bottom line, nobody has ever verified any setup of craig's for testing/comparison. I am sure you are aware of at least some of the issues that have come up. If you want to turn a blind eye towards them, so be it, but then aren't you calling the kettle black? You ask for verification from me, but not from craig? Is that not a double standard?
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No one has ever refuted that the Easter Bunny, Santa Clause, the tooth fairy, etc. actually do not exist either. wink.gif
So do you believe in them, or not? Where did you get your proof? smile.gif

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post #76 of 81 Old 06-24-2013, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

BTW...nobody ever refuted that the device used was flawed.

Comparing the SPLs in two of these scenarios shows that in one the autoformer outputs prevented the much lower speaker's impedance from sinking the current Ohm's Law predicts. Lacking higher current, the pair of speakers under test were brought into close match and in at least one case the anticipated relationship between them was reversed. In a second scenario another amplifier evidently delivered the excess current and drove the low impedance speaker to a much higher level.

This result was reported at the time and I linked that comment. Nobody ever showed, actually, that the device used was flawed. There's nothing to refute although a thorough analysis of impedance vs level could have been done, as I alluded in this thread.

Caveats: This does assume that amplifiers sound alike, which is highly debatable, and that level-matching is essential to equipment comparison, which is equally debatable. This also assumes gear should be compared to gear, which is a common and unavoidable standard in a situation that ideally should introduce an absolute reference. It also assumes that panels constitute reliable substitutes for one's own experience.

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post #77 of 81 Old 06-25-2013, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Of course it would be double blind granted the switcher didn't know what was playing. Bottom line, nobody has ever verified any setup of craig's for testing/comparison. I am sure you are aware of at least some of the issues that have come up. If you want to turn a blind eye towards them, so be it, but then aren't you calling the kettle black?

Just to be clear here with no misunderstanding whatsoever, are you saying that you believe the credibility of Clarke Robinson's review with no measurements whatsoever at all, and the fact that he was a Sierra owner at the time if not now and that he clearly stated that he didn't have the Swans in their best position is equal to that of the comparison of a panel of listeners that was blind and level matched (even if you do disagree with the methodology used)? BTW, I'm sure that if CR did post measurements in that review, you wouldn't have been questioning them.

Just to point out the obvious here, but since you and your group were/are the ones challenging the results of the test despite the fact that you weren't even there, the burden of proof is on you, which you still haven't provided yet btw despite the passage of going on 6 years now. The only issues that I have seen come up were all or mostly raised afterward by one certain group, of which you clearly belong to. I also don't remember ever seeing anything about anyone who actually attended the event complaining about the conditions of it either. To again point out the obvious here, unless and until you can actually prove your claims that the switcher was flawed, then there is nothing to refute, simple as that.
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So you believe in them? Where did you get your proof? smile.gif

No, nor do I believe your claims either when you can't provide objective proof. Your whole case is basically based on "I can't prove it, but no one can prove that I'm not wrong either". A convenient case without having to require a shred of proof built in. Like I said before, it's about the same as saying that I can't prove the tooth fairy does not exist. FTR, I also don't believe in conspiracy theories either even though I can't irrefutably disprove them. tongue.gif So who do you think really killed JFK?

It seems to be obvious that you will gladly debate this from now to Rapture if allowed to, but this will be my last post on the matter as I have already let it consume far more of my time than I wanted to and we are starting to circle back to repeating ourselves at this point. I simply do not care enough and/or have the time to pointlessly debate something indefinitely which you can't prove, or else you would have long ago. In the meantime, I'm more than sure that you will let us all know if you ever do come up with any actual proof of your claims, and I'm also more than sure that you will continue to attempt to cast doubt on the comparison at every opportunity you can, but I'm sure this thread will be referenced with your admission of no proof of your claim whenever you do. biggrin.gif
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post #78 of 81 Old 06-25-2013, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by 65 Electra Glide View Post

It seems to be obvious that you will gladly debate this from now to Rapture if allowed to, but this will be my last post on the matter as I have already let it consume far more of my time than I wanted to and we are starting to circle back to repeating ourselves at this point. I simply do not care enough and/or have the time to pointlessly debate something indefinitely which you can't prove, or else you would have long ago. In the meantime, I'm more than sure that you will let us all know if you ever do come up with any actual proof of your claims, and I'm also more than sure that you will continue to attempt to cast doubt on the comparison at every opportunity you can, but I'm sure this thread will be referenced with your admission of no proof of your claim whenever you do. biggrin.gif
You know...you are absolutely correct. The reason being is that I know what I did to look into the issue. Other than some emails from the manufacturer, I can't satisfy the your burden of proof.

The only recourse I had was to ask you to do some legwork and gave you a name/company of who to contact about the attenuation device(in a PM). This could stop the "circling back". You have refused. So it seems to me that it isn't the fact that you don't believe me, it is the fact that don't want to believe me.

Lastly, the point that seems to be lost in all of this is that for proper A/B testing/comparison, the level matching should be done before the amplifier. This point isn't even debatable.

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post #79 of 81 Old 06-25-2013, 01:41 PM
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Where did a fight break out? This is a open forum and the op asked for opinions...its the nature of the beast. Not everybody has the same opinion or experience. tongue.gif

Hate to say I told ya so but.....
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post #80 of 81 Old 06-25-2013, 04:17 PM
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Caveats: This does assume that amplifiers sound alike, which is highly debatable, and that level-matching is essential to equipment comparison, which is equally debatable. This also assumes gear should be compared to gear, which is a common and unavoidable standard in a situation that ideally should introduce an absolute reference. It also assumes that panels constitute reliable substitutes for one's own experience.

Jon, I want to opine on this. With my background in music and live production, I never really level matched one instrument to another. I realize what others are striving for which is objective parity between two speakers, but I think that is nearly unattainable AND it may be unnecessary. Here's my thought: drummer, guitarists, pianists, vocalists do not "level match" in as much as they get the "instrument" up to a volume that is loud enough for them to hear into the sound (i.e. the minute resonances, intonations, distortions, and other colorings of the sound). Nobody ever tested a new drum kit at half volume, but neither do they test all kits at the exact same volume. Same goes for an acoustic guitar. When comparing a Gibson to a Taylor, my buddies always played them loud enough to really hear what was going on.

Also, due to the massive variations in crossover designs, loudspeaker designs, etc.....how a loudspeaker operates on a loudness scale is necessarily a misnomer and can be misleading because music is inherently dynamic. After level matching, one loudspeaker may reproduce a snare hit that peaks at 92dB, while the other reproduces that same snare hit at 90.5dB...but the RMS output of both is identical. This could be due to differences in the efficiency of each driver in the cabinet, different crossover designs, different system efficiencies when placed in a cabinet of a different size, dynamic response to a note, horn loading vice not horn loading a set of drivers, etc.

I just don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water when doing speaker comparisons; we should strive for basic level-matching when doing comparisons (absolutely!), but just because a perfect level-match is not attained does not mean that the speakers cannot be evaluated equally well. I think we deceive ourselves when we claim to attain "perfect level matching" between two speakers that are not the same (it could be substantially done with two identical pairs of loudspeaker, not accounting for manufacturing variances which should be minimal).

Here's my take on it: NO obvious volume difference = the goal.


Carry on.

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post #81 of 81 Old 06-25-2013, 04:21 PM
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OP here. Yes, I was quiet, but I was reading. Thanks for all the suggestions.

I got some Polk RTi a3s from Fry's, mostly because they're so easy to return. I did return them after a few hours. Their bass was louder than my Advents, but the Advent bass sounds like bass, while the a3 bass sounded like something echoing around in a hard room. I did like the way that the a3s handled multiple instruments at the same time. My Advents have a way of producing single sound in that situation; with the a3s I could hear the individual instruments better.

I'll try one of the more common suggestions next, perhaps the Aviano 6s, or, in deference to my wife, one of the ones that are between bookshelves and towers. I'm sure we'll find something. Meanwhile, I'm sitting here admiring the beautiful cabinets of the Advents, and wondering why modern speakers look so plasticky and cheap, sound notwithstanding.

Hal,

You may have said it earlier in the thread, so pardon me if you've already answered the question: does your receiver/preamp have bass management capabilities or are you planning on running your main Left and Right speakers full range? This is usually what decides between towers and bookshelves for stereo listening in a room your size.

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