Looking for a Pair of Floor Standing Fronts for around $500 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 71 Old 06-17-2013, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey Everyone!

I just moved and I am looking to upgrade my front speakers. I am new to the HT world so I was hoping for some advice/recommendations.

I currently have a pioneer VSX-822K receiver, I have a Martin Logan Motion 8 for a center channel, I will be using Martin Logan Motion 10's for rears (they used to be my fronts), and I have a Polk PSW 10 sub-woofer.

I am looking for a pair of fronts that have a nice wide sound stage so my imaging optimal zone isn't as tight as my ML's were.

Any advice would be appreciated! Thanks in advance! If you need more information please let me know.
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post #2 of 71 Old 06-17-2013, 12:24 PM
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Not sure what your budget is, but unless you plan on replacing your center you need yo stick with ML Motion series

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0035FZ14M/ref=redir_mdp_mobile
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post #3 of 71 Old 06-17-2013, 12:36 PM
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... unless you plan on replacing your center you need yo stick with ML Motion series
+1. According to the ML website, the Motion series includes Motion 20 and Motion 40 towers. A pair of those might also be worth considering.
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post #4 of 71 Old 06-17-2013, 01:32 PM
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It may be to your advantage to do some reading about dispersion and different types of tweeters. Aparrently with ribbons, moving outside the sweet spot can cause a drop in output. I understand that ribbons are great sounding but do have deficiencies .
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post #5 of 71 Old 06-17-2013, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah I didn't realized I painted myself into an audio corner with the purchase of this type of tweeter. I don't like it being so narrow so I guess I may have to look into replacing the whole front of house. I don't want to spend a 1000 bucks per speaker. I was hoping to be able to blend some other fronts with the center channel. That option seems bleak. As I learn more and understand my equipment I am realizing I need something that widespread. Thanks for the input.
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post #6 of 71 Old 06-17-2013, 01:43 PM - Thread Starter
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I guess a realistic option is to keep my 10's in the front and buy new rears? Or is it a issue having the ribbon tweeter in the rear as well?
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post #7 of 71 Old 06-17-2013, 01:57 PM
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You dont have to spend $3k to upgrade IMO. I would look at wharfedale dimond line, with the dome mid. These speakers will have a very wide open sound

http://www.musicdirect.com/p-15494-wharfedale-diamond-107-tower-speakers-pr.aspx
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post #8 of 71 Old 06-17-2013, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Is there anything in a lower price range that could work?
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post #9 of 71 Old 06-17-2013, 02:29 PM
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Well, what's your budget?
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post #10 of 71 Old 06-17-2013, 02:37 PM - Thread Starter
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I am looking to spend a total of $600 ($300/speaker), that would be ideal. but i have a small amount of flexibility depending on how the speaker set would play into the future of my over all system.
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post #11 of 71 Old 06-17-2013, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diego0290 View Post

I am looking to spend a total of $600 ($300/speaker), that would be ideal. but i have a small amount of flexibility depending on how the speaker set would play into the future of my over all system.

That is a tough budget for towers. You can beat the ML's, maybe not exactly towers though. An Ascend 340 LCR, with pedestal "tower" stands will cost a little over your budget, but they're worth it. It will be a noticeable sound quality improvement.



http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cmt340m/cmt340m.html

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/access/spkstnds/pedstlcmt340.html

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cmt340c/cmt340c.html
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post #12 of 71 Old 06-17-2013, 07:56 PM
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Why not sell off the front three and then add some cash to move to another brand using a soft dome tweeter. Tower speakers are not ideal for surround duty anyway. Now I am not suggesting axiom speakers, but that is the brand I have and I can lay down ,sit up lean back in my recliner and I do not detect in deterioration in the sound field. I can get restless watching a movie so I tend to reposition a lot so for me these work great. How large is your room.
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post #13 of 71 Old 06-18-2013, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

That is a tough budget for towers. You can beat the ML's, maybe not exactly towers though. An Ascend 340 LCR, with pedestal "tower" stands will cost a little over your budget, but they're worth it. It will be a noticeable sound quality improvement.



http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cmt340m/cmt340m.html

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/access/spkstnds/pedstlcmt340.html

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cmt340c/cmt340c.html

Thanks for the suggestion, I will look further into these. They seem like an option.
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post #14 of 71 Old 06-18-2013, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Socketman View Post

Why not sell off the front three and then add some cash to move to another brand using a soft dome tweeter. Tower speakers are not ideal for surround duty anyway. Now I am not suggesting axiom speakers, but that is the brand I have and I can lay down ,sit up lean back in my recliner and I do not detect in deterioration in the sound field. I can get restless watching a movie so I tend to reposition a lot so for me these work great. How large is your room.

Yeah that maybe the direction I have to head in. It just seems like a pain to have to sell them since I don't have the speaker boxes for the towers. It may have to be a local pickup sale. But yeah I guess I would have to look into a front set (Left, Right, & Center) for like $1000. That would be my upper boundary.
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post #15 of 71 Old 06-18-2013, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Socketman View Post

It may be to your advantage to do some reading about dispersion and different types of tweeters. Aparrently with ribbons, moving outside the sweet spot can cause a drop in output. I understand that ribbons are great sounding but do have deficiencies .

Do you have any experience with ribbons, planars, AMTs? Or are you just regurditating a comment from a party? You take one bad or negative comment that you read about ribbons and run with it, but ignore many negative comments about Axiom as just trolling.
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Originally Posted by Socketman View Post

. Now I am not suggesting axiom speakers, but that is the brand I have and I can lay down ,sit up lean back in my recliner and I do not detect in deterioration in the sound field. I can get restless watching a movie so I tend to reposition a lot so for me these work great. How large is your room.

I can do the same thing with my speakers that use a ribbon. I could never do that when I had the Axiom VP150 which i'm not suggesting is the absolute worst off axis speaker available wink.gif Oh and i'm also not suggesting that i've read comments about the VP180 center channel being a speaker that is just a "mess" of a sound that only just plays loud and nothing else. I would also not suggest that Axiom has been described at shrill and fatiquing and extremely bright to listen too, from many people.
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post #16 of 71 Old 06-18-2013, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
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LoL well do have you front of house just ribbon or have you mixed different tweeter? I am open to other speakers to add into the fold I guess I am unsure of how well other speaker types can match up.
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post #17 of 71 Old 06-18-2013, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Diego0290 View Post

Yeah I didn't realized I painted myself into an audio corner with the purchase of this type of tweeter. I don't like it being so narrow so I guess I may have to look into replacing the whole front of house. I don't want to spend a 1000 bucks per speaker. I was hoping to be able to blend some other fronts with the center channel. That option seems bleak. As I learn more and understand my equipment I am realizing I need something that widespread. Thanks for the input.

You didn't paint yourself into a corner. The Martin Logan is a successful speaker manufacturer with gazillions of rewards and millions of happy customers. So far from being a bad thing. Setup plays a big part in soundstage and imaging. You can have some speakers that have domes that just play loud and nothing else with a big mess of a sound stage or you can have speakers that are designed to image and create a co hesive soundstage and offer pinpoint imaging. If you like the Martin Logan center and sounds I see no reason why you wouldn't like th Martin Logan Motion towers.

I have speakers using ribbons and I can tell you they have just as good of imaging and soundstage as the previous speakers i've owned using cheap Chinese metal dome tweeters. The previous center channel I had, had tweeters on each end of the cabinet and was typical that you see a -10db drop in output in the important 2,500-8,000hrz range and thats only 20degrees off axis. So its not the tweeter type its how its designed and as a system.
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post #18 of 71 Old 06-18-2013, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Diego0290 View Post

LoL well do have you front of house just ribbon or have you mixed different tweeter? I am open to other speakers to add into the fold I guess I am unsure of how well other speaker types can match up.

I've got planar ribbons all around in all 7 speakers, Arx A5 towers, A2 center and A2 surrounds all using planar ribbons. I moved from 1" dome tweeter speakers to ribbons and couldn't be more happier and will probably never go back to domes. Comments from people who have actually heard the Arx speakers have said they had a very wide and expansive sound stage and even csChang would is a big time Ascend Acoustics guy had said the Arx A1b's have a larger sound stage than the Ascend 170SE (dome tweeter) but felt the Ascends where more pinpoint in imaging.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/speaker-subwoofer-reviews/65546-arx-a1b-a2b-speaker-review.html

The soundstage is equally remarkable; stand up, sit down, move to the side, whatever, it hardly made any difference. The balance changed very little unless you got way off center. The proverbial "sweet spot" is more like a "sweet area" instead, so you aren't necessarily penalized for sitting in the 'wrong' seat with the Arx speakers. Jim Wilson
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post #19 of 71 Old 06-18-2013, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
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It is fairly large because it is an open concept home. So like i have high ceilings and a weird configuration.
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post #20 of 71 Old 06-18-2013, 09:23 AM
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I too own speakers with RAAL ribbon tweeter and a planar midrange, without a doubt the most expansive and detailed sound stage I've ever heard. There are limits on vertical dispersion by nature of the design, but I'm guessing this is more beneficial in controlling ceiling reflections than it is detrimental, and honestly in my room with 8' ceilings I haven't noticed it. I guess it helps to be 5'8" tall wink.gif

Here's a graph of FR at 50 degrees off axis from the maker of my speakers. I have my own graph which I'm too lazy to upload, it's even better.



I don't know anything of the ML speakers you own Diego, but if you are considering a replacement (let's hope it doesn't come to that) the Ascend CMT-340 SE linked above is an excellent bargain. I just added them to my living room for music only and it's the only bookshelf (albeit a tall one) speaker that has worked in my large, open room with 25' ceilings and 28' x 21' dimensions.

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post #21 of 71 Old 06-18-2013, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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I mean I set out to get an upgraded set of front speakers. I like the ML's I have currently. I wanted to put the 10's in the rear keep the center and upgrade the L & R. It may make more sense to keep the 10's in the front with the center and add new rears, but I would need them on stands.
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post #22 of 71 Old 06-18-2013, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diego0290 View Post

I mean I set out to get an upgraded set of front speakers. I like the ML's I have currently. I wanted to put the 10's in the rear keep the center and upgrade the L & R. It may make more sense to keep the 10's in the front with the center and add new rears, but I would need them on stands.

Nothing wrong with having towers as surrounds. Move the 10s to the rear and add the Motion 12 towers to the front. With towers as surrounds you won't have to worry about mounting the surrounds to the walls or tipping over a speaker sitting on a stand. The 12s will give you a more output and better dynamics since its over all a larger speaker with multiple drivers and larger drivers.

Using your Motion 10s as surrounds and upgrading the fronts to the 12s is the same price as keeping the 10s as the fronts and getting the Motion Fx surrounds. IMO $399 each for the surrounds is kind of alot of money. Compared to $319 each for the Motion 12 towers.
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post #23 of 71 Old 06-18-2013, 01:37 PM
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Everyone here knows who the troll is GT. All I suggested was to do some reading before making any rash decisions. Your word on planar ribbons is not the end all be all. I have listened to ribbons,albeit only in a treated room , and for me in my opinion I didn't like them. I say axiom in a sentence not even promoting them and you jump all over me. I for one wish you would grow up and move on. Quit ruining one thread after another just because you think you have golden ears. I should not have to feel like ive done something wrong because of my speaker brand and wonder when you are going to attack. You like ribbons ,I don't the op doesn't but yet you start in about axiom. IF you read through the thread of the NE shootout only a couple things were even said about ARX and one of them was that it had poor imaging.


If the op is using the towers for rear surround that is one thing but the suggested positioning for side surround is above and to the sides to create ambience. Also the OP clearly stated he didn't like his presentation with the ribbons, so I made an alternate suggestion. I also suggested soft dome tweeter which if you paid attention, the axioms don't have.










Edited for content
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post #24 of 71 Old 06-18-2013, 01:58 PM
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I have listened to ribbons,albeit only in a treated room , and for me in my opinion I didn't like them.

'Scuse me, but the information you gave was grossly inaccurate, and quite honestly if you look at your statement
Quote:
It may be to your advantage to do some reading about dispersion and different types of tweeters. Aparrently with ribbons, moving outside the sweet spot can cause a drop in output. I understand that ribbons are great sounding but do have deficiencies .

I don't believe you've ever heard a speaker with ribbons. Nonetheless, all you needed to say is that "I don't like them" and move on.

Now, if I had to guess the narrow soundstage that he is experiencing has nothing to do with the drivers in the speakers, not while just about every review comments on their expansive soundstage. I would be more inclined to look at room characteristics, placement and positioning, and any sound processing going on before I arbitrarily jumped in and started blaming the speakers.

I know nothing of Axiom other than veiled rumors of discontent, so that argument is yours alone.
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post #25 of 71 Old 06-18-2013, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

'Scuse me, but the information you gave was grossly inaccurate, and quite honestly if you look at your statement
I don't believe you've ever heard a speaker with ribbons. Nonetheless, all you needed to say is that "I don't like them" and move on.

Now, if I had to guess the narrow soundstage that he is experiencing has nothing to do with the drivers in the speakers, not while just about every review comments on their expansive soundstage. I would be more inclined to look at room characteristics, placement and positioning, and any sound processing going on before I arbitrarily jumped in and started blaming the speakers.

I know nothing of Axiom other than veiled rumors of discontent, so that argument is yours alone.


Well excuse me, but i dont need to prove anything to anyone and the OP came here looking for new speakers so cool it with the accusations. Every product ever made will be reviewed differently by different people,; no need to get so defensive. My opinion is as valid as anyones. Perhaps ribbons are not right for his particular room , his description makes it sound very unorthodox compared to tyypical rectangular rooms,which are typically used to design and sudition speakers.
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post #26 of 71 Old 06-18-2013, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Socketman View Post

no need to get so defensive

Uhh, OK.

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My opinion is as valid as anyones

As mentioned above, when stated as an opinion I don't think anyone has a problem. When stated as fact, and an inaccurate one at that, expect to be corrected. Thanks for understanding.

Now that we're through babysitting, Diego it looks like you may be on the right track with gtpsuper's recommendation. Good luck in finding the improvement you seek.

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post #27 of 71 Old 06-18-2013, 04:04 PM
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I merely suggested the op research since there are varying opinions surrounding tweeter options. If you care to review the NE shootout thread many felt the arx was soft and (my words) narrow soundfield. You will find also GT cryin foul there as well. I myself do not come to the forum to sell Axiom koolaide or any other only tomake sugggestions or share an experience. Saying someone should use the net to further their knowledge is in my mind better than trusting some keyboard cat. Nor was i recommending particular brand there are far toany factors involved including room size and personal preference. By all means try some ID brands he can always return them. I dont see how the op can improve over his rxisting speakers with a small budget which was the ground for my suggestion to sell the speaks he has and upgrade whether thats ribbons or dome.
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post #28 of 71 Old 06-18-2013, 04:27 PM
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No worries. I generalize - wrongly - about metal alloy tweeters as being overly bright, and naturally gravitate to ribbon or silk domes because of negative experiences with most metal tweeters. I have read the NE shootout experience, but that's just one speaker in one room with one crossover design, and not indicative of general driver performance at all. IMO nothing beats a well-designed speaker with ribbons and planars, although there are high end manufacturers who have tremendous performance from beryllium tweeters, which I'd be interested in owning again someday.

Diego likes his Martin Logans, if there is a way if improving what he has with what he likes then this is a path worth following.

Good day.

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post #29 of 71 Old 06-18-2013, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

No worries. I generalize - wrongly - about metal alloy tweeters as being overly bright, and naturally gravitate to ribbon or silk domes because of negative experiences with most metal tweeters. I have read the NE shootout experience, but that's just one speaker in one room with one crossover design, and not indicative of general driver performance at all. IMO nothing beats a well-designed speaker with ribbons and planars, although there are high end manufacturers who have tremendous performance from beryllium tweeters, which I'd be interested in owning again someday.

Diego likes his Martin Logans, if there is a way if improving what he has with what he likes then this is a path worth following.

Good day.


I dont gravitate one way or the other, i have stated multiple times that my hearing is compromised and thus make no direct recommendations. What Gt hears is also only one room and one situation,whereas theshootout was multiple people but yeah just one speaker. I did not know the room description at first so maybe thats his whole problem hopefully he finds something that will give him what he wants. I didnt inntend to bash planars just sugggest education before anymore expensive mistakes.


peace
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post #30 of 71 Old 06-18-2013, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socketman View Post

It may be to your advantage to do some reading about dispersion and different types of tweeters. Aparrently with ribbons, moving outside the sweet spot can cause a drop in output. I understand that ribbons are great sounding but do have deficiencies .

You discovered that from just quickly reading the AVS GTG that was a party and not a serious listening session.

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Originally Posted by Socketman View Post

Now I am not suggesting axiom speakers, but that is the brand I have and I can lay down ,sit up lean back in my recliner and I do not detect in deterioration in the sound field.
So your suggesting Axioms cause they are beyond what you read about ribbons from a party?


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All I suggested was to do some reading before making any rash decisions.
Like reading a few posts from a party and labeling ribbons as poor off axis and narrown sweet spot.

When you say many felt the Arx were soft that was only two posters not MANY. And the concensus from people who've listened to the Arx have described them as expansive and wide soundstaging, which is the exact opposite of narrow small sweet spot.

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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

My observations/opinions....I think Arx has deeper bass, but the Ascend is punchier. The midrange on the Ascend sounded a bit more open and forward to me, and the Arx a bit laid back. I felt the treble on the Arx was a bit more extended, but Ascend had more detail, especially in the lower treble...probably around the crossover area. The Arx seemed to have a wider soundstage, while the Ascend imaged better.
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