Speakers for 100% movies/TV (~$3K to $5K budget) - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 257 Old 06-26-2013, 03:43 PM
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How about buying used already built proven DIY designs? Or used speakers that are better than the Klipsch for music and IMHO better for movies. There are lots of options besides the SEOS kits. The kits would be better but you can save all the hassle(easier to out together than one would think). Find some used PI's, SHO-10's, SEOS, BFMs(wide speakers) or stuff like that. Everything I just mentioned would not only rival the Klipsch but better them in sensitivity, dynamics, SPL's, etc. BTW I do like the Klipsch but not for $700 each, maybe $500 each. I bought mine full warranty for $500 each way back when. I can't believe the price went up with no improvements.
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post #92 of 257 Old 06-26-2013, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Gah... I need to start finalizing decisions eventually. Perfection is the enemy of done. smile.gif I'm in a little bit of a crunch to get this new system (speakers, projector, screen, furniture, etc.) bought, setup, and ready to rock before the second week in August.
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

How about buying used already built proven DIY designs?
Not a bad idea. Where I would I find such used speakers?

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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Or used speakers that are better than the Klipsch for music and IMHO better for movies.
I'm not interested in music listening (0%), but I'm certainly interested in a better movie experience. Are these the speakers that you mention in your post (e.g. PI's, SHO-10's, SEOS, BFMs)?

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post #93 of 257 Old 06-26-2013, 04:28 PM
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In the classifieds section of this site.
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post #94 of 257 Old 06-26-2013, 04:32 PM
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http://www.avsforum.com/t/1478098/jtr-t8-and-slanted-8

Something like this maybe.
There are a couple of older Captivators for about a grand as well.

So 3 grand plus whatever shipping and an amp for the caps would get you a doozy of a system.

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post #95 of 257 Old 06-26-2013, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
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http://www.avsforum.com/t/1478098/jtr-t8-and-slanted-8

Something like this maybe.
There are a couple of older Captivators for about a grand as well.

So 3 grand plus whatever shipping and an amp for the caps would get you a doozy of a system.
Wow... just saw the Captivator deal too. That'd be some epic bass from the two of those. If it's such a great deal, why has he had such a hard time selling them?

I know nothing about amps. What would I need for those?

Edit: Is this the specs for the Captivator being sold? http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/captivator-1000/

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post #96 of 257 Old 06-26-2013, 05:08 PM
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Wow... just saw the Captivator deal too. That'd be some epic bass from the two of those. If it's such a great deal, why has he had such a hard time selling them?

I know nothing about amps. What would I need for those?

Edit: Is this the specs for the Captivator being sold? http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/captivator-1000/

The caps being sold are a few years old, a different design before jeff started using 18 inch drivers. They have an internal 12 inch driver and a 15 inch passive radiator. Not sure how well they stack up vs the current model.

I'd look at the dual opposed SI 15 that popalock is selling.
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post #97 of 257 Old 06-26-2013, 05:09 PM
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A lot of giant companies (KEF, Revel, B&W, etc) sell to dealers for 50% off MSRP, some little more, some little less.

The KEF 201/2 is one of the best sounding and best measured speakers in the world. Build quality is also top notch. MSRP is $6,000/PR. Yet a dealer could get a new pair for $2,700/PR. The KEF 207/2 MSRP is $20,000, but a dealer could get for $9,000/PR. It does not change the fact that these are very high quality speakers.

I don't think it's fair to judge quality based on dealer costs.

For another example, the diamond tweeters on the B&W may cost owners/dealers $2,000/PR. But if you were buying DIY, a diamond tweeter from an aftermarket place may cost you $4,000/PR. That does not mean the aftermarket tweeter is better quality, etc.

There are so many factors. Going back to the Klipsch KL-650-THX. The fact is, this speaker (regardless of price) has been through THX testing and certified to be THX Ultra2, which is very high standard.

So I think we should focus on the actual end product and actual testing and actual quality, not the dealer cost. wink.gif

Just because a product has THX on it doesn't mean it's going to be great, there's plenty of crappy products with THX rated on them and lots of great products that don't carried the THX stamp because the companies don't want to pay the fees just to say THX their products.

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JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
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post #98 of 257 Old 06-26-2013, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Just because a product has THX on it doesn't mean it's going to be great, there's plenty of crappy products with THX rated on them and lots of great products that don't carried the THX stamp because the companies don't want to pay the fees just to say THX their products.
Exactly!

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #99 of 257 Old 06-26-2013, 06:31 PM
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Okay, back on track....

it seems like the one thing *all* of you are agreeing on is that 2 SVS PB12-NSD's might not be the best bang for my buck or even get the job done. I don't have a special price for these - they're $769/each (free shipping). Assuming I'm a quadriplegic and incapable of building my own, what would you guys say is the minimum I should go with to *get started*? This is assuming that I can enjoy my system in the short term and optimize it with more "woof" later.
I tampered with the above quote and inserted the price tags for convenience. I also added int he PB12-NSD for comparison. To my uneducated eye, they appear to be very similar in their bang for buck.
Ha... Any Denon AVRs that fall in that category? The Denon x4000 is what I'm currently assigning to this project.

Those THX Ultra2 speakers are very sensitive, so almost any AVR will do. The Denon X4000 should do fantastic.

Check to see if you could get three Klipsch THX Ultra2 subwoofers @ $600 each. THX Ultra2 subs are capable of 115dB output per THX Ultra2 standard. I may not be willing to pay $1300 each, but $600 each would be great. biggrin.gif
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post #100 of 257 Old 06-26-2013, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Just because a product has THX on it doesn't mean it's going to be great, there's plenty of crappy products with THX rated on them and lots of great products that don't carried the THX stamp because the companies don't want to pay the fees just to say THX their products.

Really? You guys care to actually share which exact product is THX Ultra2 certified and is crappy?

At least THX Ultra2 has verified STANDARDS. Most companies don't. They just make claims without any kind of measurements to back up what they say.

Facts:

1. He could get the 650-THX Ultra2 for $800 each. The JTR costs a lot more.

2. They measure a lot better than any JTR speakers known to mankind. The Klipsch THX Ultra2 measurements are confirmed by both Home Theater Magazine and Audioholics. The JTR speakers have never been measured by ANY third party.

3. These THX Ultra2 speakers look much more pleasing aesthetically. The JTR are ugly as heck. His wife will laugh at him for even making her look at them.

4. It NEVER HURTS to be THX Ultra2 certified. Does it hurt to be THX Ultra2 certified? You guys are making like THX Ultra2 is a BAD thing. This is another 3rd party verification. It is great. Still waiting for a single 3rd party verification for any JTR speakers.

5. It all comes down to his personal preference, not anyone else. We just make recommendations, and the OP will have to audition and judge for himself. There's no point arguing which one you think is better. You're not buying, the OP is buying.
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post #101 of 257 Old 06-26-2013, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Really? You guys care to actually share which exact product is THX Ultra2 certified and is crappy?

At least THX Ultra2 has verified STANDARDS. Most companies don't. They just make claims without any kind of measurements to back up what they say.

Facts:

1. He could get the 650-THX Ultra2 for $800 each. The JTR costs a lot more.

2. They measure a lot better than any JTR speakers known to mankind. The Klipsch THX Ultra2 measurements are confirmed by both Home Theater Magazine and Audioholics. The JTR speakers have never been measured by ANY third party.

3. These THX Ultra2 speakers look much more pleasing aesthetically. The JTR are ugly as heck. His wife will laugh at him for even making her look at them.

4. It NEVER HURTS to be THX Ultra2 certified. Does it hurt to be THX Ultra2 certified? You guys are making like THX Ultra2 is a BAD thing. This is another 3rd party verification. It is great. Still waiting for a single 3rd party verification for any JTR speakers.

5. It all comes down to his personal preference, not anyone else. We just make recommendations, and the OP will have to audition and judge for himself. There's no point arguing which one you think is better. You're not buying, the OP is buying.

LOL why are you making this a JTR vs Klipsch speaker debate? No one said anything in regards to the OP going with Klipsch over JTR, calm down pussy cat.

I'm curious as to how you're able to prove your second point though. I'm curious to know if you've managed to hear the Klipsch speakers yet? I could be wrong but I highly doubt you've heard any of the Noesis speakers either.

I think the KL-650-THX for $800 is a great deal FYI.

My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
Axiom Audio QS8 surrounds
Sherbourn PA 7-350
Pioneer VSX-21TXH
JVC RS45
Falcon Screens FVHD105
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post #102 of 257 Old 06-26-2013, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

LOL why are you making this a JTR vs Klipsch speaker debate? No one said anything in regards to the OP going with Klipsch over JTR, calm down pussy cat.

I'm curious as to how you're able to prove your second point though. I'm curious to know if you've managed to hear the Klipsch speakers yet? I could be wrong but I highly doubt you've heard any of the Noesis speakers either.

I think the KL-650-THX for $800 is a great deal FYI.

1. My second point is that the Klipsch THX Ultra2 has been measured and published by two 3rd parties to have a listening window FR of 200Hz-10kHz +/-1dB.

2. And do you care to actually share which exact product is THX Ultra2 certified and is crappy?

3. One of my friends finally got his Klipsch KL650-THX. I finally got to hear them and compared them to my brother's JTR 888. The Klipsch sounded better for both music and movies.
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post #103 of 257 Old 06-26-2013, 08:15 PM
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Do you think they sound better than the reference? I thought they did and still recommend them, I still think he can get a better deal. How about a store demo? What do you like about them that you don't about the 888?
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post #104 of 257 Old 06-26-2013, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

1. My second point is that the Klipsch THX Ultra2 has been measured and published by two 3rd parties to have a listening window FR of 200Hz-10kHz +/-1dB.

2. And do you care to actually share which exact product is THX Ultra2 certified and is crappy?

3. One of my friends finally got his Klipsch KL650-THX. I finally got to hear them and compared them to my brother's JTR 888. The Klipsch sounded better for both music and movies.

There are plenty of receivers that are crap IMO that say THX on them. And why are you comparing a JTR speaker that we haven't been talking about? So now we're to believe that because you've heard a Triple 8 from JTR you know what all of their speakers sound like? That's laughable at best rolleyes.gif

Once again you're turning this into a "Klipsch Ultra2 speakers are better then JTR" thread for reasons that you believe while never hearing either the KL-650-THX or JTR 228HT that were talked about in this thread. Go figure.

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JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
Axiom Audio QS8 surrounds
Sherbourn PA 7-350
Pioneer VSX-21TXH
JVC RS45
Falcon Screens FVHD105
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post #105 of 257 Old 06-26-2013, 08:38 PM
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OK, some of this has gotten rather off-topic...
I'm going to respond to the original posts holistically,

Go for a projector. In that kind of room you want 120' screen. Now, back on topic - 5.1 or 7.1, whichever your room will allow. I suggest 5 or 7 matching larger bookshelves (~5" driver) - you have many suggestions on here, I could add more, but won't and 2 SUBs. I think you will want to be able to tune the base response with sub placement a bit. Opposite side walls isn't a bat place to start and move them around. Put down some area rugs on thick pads. Over-stuffed couches can be helpful.
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post #106 of 257 Old 06-27-2013, 04:22 AM - Thread Starter
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I updated my potential subwoofer list. Based on recent feedback, I think I should stick with buying at least a pair of subs. I'm removing the PB13 Ultra and FV15HP because a pair of those would be too far outside my budget. The XV15's and PB12-NSD's are both discounted if bought in pairs.

Subwoofer Performance CEA Standard (THD <10%, 2 Meters) SPL @ 20/32/40/50/63Hz:
$769 $725 SVS PB12-NSD: 103.2/105.9/106.5/107.3/108.0
$649 Outlaw LFM-1EX: 101.0/110.7/112.3/113.7/113.8
$799 $759 Power Sound XV15: 102.7/109.6/113.7/116.6/114.7
$879 Hsu VTF-15H: 103.9/113.0/115.7/115.7/115.6
$1999 SVS PB13 Ultra: 110.6/113.5/115.5/117.5/117.8
Rythmik FV15HP: 108.1/117.0/119.5/119.1/118.8

I'm leaning towards either a pair of PB12-NSD's or a pair of XV15's. It seems like the PB12's have a more accurate sound, but the XV15's put out more sound. In fact, Audioholics said the following about the XV15's:

The Power Sound XV15 easily meets the required output thresholds to receive the Audioholics Bassaholic Large Room rating, but was just a little short of making the more difficult Extreme room rating. It would have been the least expensive unit to do so by far. The Large room rating indicates that this sub is recommended as maintaining adequate headroom in rooms or spaces of between 3,000 to 5,000 cubic feet and/or for users who usually listen at moderate to high volume levels.

My thoughts are that if a single XV15 almost makes it into the 5000+ cubic feet category, I can only imagine that I'd be satisfied with *two* of those. I guess it comes down to how much I should be concerned about the accuracy difference between the PB12 and XV15 - I don't know how much this would affect me. My guess is that if I'm not using this for music listening, that I should go for the raw output. Does that sound right? Or is there a certain level of distortion that would be problematic even for movies?

Here's the measurements from Audioholics.




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post #107 of 257 Old 06-27-2013, 05:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Really? You guys care to actually share which exact product is THX Ultra2 certified and is crappy?

At least THX Ultra2 has verified STANDARDS. Most companies don't. They just make claims without any kind of measurements to back up what they say.

Facts:

1. He could get the 650-THX Ultra2 for $800 each. The JTR costs a lot more.

2. They measure a lot better than any JTR speakers known to mankind. The Klipsch THX Ultra2 measurements are confirmed by both Home Theater Magazine and Audioholics. The JTR speakers have never been measured by ANY third party.

3. These THX Ultra2 speakers look much more pleasing aesthetically. The JTR are ugly as heck. His wife will laugh at him for even making her look at them.

4. It NEVER HURTS to be THX Ultra2 certified. Does it hurt to be THX Ultra2 certified? You guys are making like THX Ultra2 is a BAD thing. This is another 3rd party verification. It is great. Still waiting for a single 3rd party verification for any JTR speakers.

5. It all comes down to his personal preference, not anyone else. We just make recommendations, and the OP will have to audition and judge for himself. There's no point arguing which one you think is better. You're not buying, the OP is buying.

So these are Facts and Not Opinions huh? rolleyes.gif
Putting down one speaker to compliment another is unnecessary and counterproductive. Only you can control what you type.
Continually being negative about speakers you have not even heard is careless and misleading at best. I am Not talking about past products that are no longer available.
Please inform us of any current model JTR speakers you have listen too. All that's right "heard one heard them all".
It's a Shame that you hate JTR so much you cannot just Let it Be.
Chris
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post #108 of 257 Old 06-27-2013, 05:44 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't doubt the JTRs are better. However, as someone who won't know what he's missing and who would be supremely happy with the less expensive KL-650's, I think I'll be going down that route instead. I'm grateful for everyone sharing their passion and wisdom.

Per my previous post, I'm just stuck on subs at the moment, but I think I'm nearing the final stretch.

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post #109 of 257 Old 06-27-2013, 08:00 AM
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Exactly, and why you should buy the used SHO-10's as that would save you huge money to get dual bigger subs and have fantastic speakers which are every bit as good as the Klipsch.
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post #110 of 257 Old 06-27-2013, 08:14 AM
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+1 to some gently-used SHO-10s. They have a clean, neutral sound; they throw a huge soundstage; and they can play very loud, effortlessly. Excellent speakers for movie use...and not too shabby with music, either! smile.gif
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post #111 of 257 Old 06-27-2013, 08:23 AM
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I would look on the classifieds here. There's a guy selling 5 triple 888's for 2K and another selling a pair of caps for 1K. Also the is a pair of CHT 18.1's for 1K. You could save some serious cash and have a killer system to boot!

There's also a Danley DTS-10 assembled kit for sale that is an absolutely killer sub. I should know, I have one!biggrin.gif

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #112 of 257 Old 06-27-2013, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by jklick View Post

I don't doubt the JTRs are better. However, as someone who won't know what he's missing and who would be supremely happy with the less expensive KL-650's, I think I'll be going down that route instead. I'm grateful for everyone sharing their passion and wisdom.

Per my previous post, I'm just stuck on subs at the moment, but I think I'm nearing the final stretch.

Like I said to you in my PM, I think the KL-650-THX will be a great speaker for the price you are getting them for. And you'll be very happy with them.

My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
Axiom Audio QS8 surrounds
Sherbourn PA 7-350
Pioneer VSX-21TXH
JVC RS45
Falcon Screens FVHD105
Dual PSA XS30's (gone but not forgotten)
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post #113 of 257 Old 06-27-2013, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Like I said to you in my PM, I think the KL-650-THX will be a great speaker for the price you are getting them for. And you'll be very happy with them.

Not when you can get a 3 channel front stage of SHO-10's for around the same price! I have owned both and just my opinion. I prefer the SHO-10 to the 888's myself. I have a 888lp now I don't use which I could sell for cheap.
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post #114 of 257 Old 06-27-2013, 08:41 AM
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So these are Facts and Not Opinions huh? rolleyes.gif
Putting down one speaker to compliment another is unnecessary and counterproductive. Only you can control what you type.
Continually being negative about speakers you have not even heard is careless and misleading at best. I am Not talking about past products that are no longer available.
Please inform us of any current model JTR speakers you have listen too. All that's right "heard one heard them all".
It's a Shame that you hate JTR so much you cannot just Let it Be.
Chris

I also suspect from some of his posts that the JTR 888's that he has heard we're the older versions without the updated compression drivers and new crossovers. All of which changed the way the 888's sounded.

My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
Axiom Audio QS8 surrounds
Sherbourn PA 7-350
Pioneer VSX-21TXH
JVC RS45
Falcon Screens FVHD105
Dual PSA XS30's (gone but not forgotten)
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post #115 of 257 Old 06-27-2013, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Not when you can get a 3 channel front stage of SHO-10's for around the same price! I have owned both and just my opinion. I prefer the SHO-10 to the 888's myself. I have a 888lp now I don't use which I could sell for cheap.

MK, do your 888's have the new compression driver in them with the updated crossovers?

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post #116 of 257 Old 06-27-2013, 08:47 AM
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They are either 2011 or 2012's, have they changed recently? At the time they were the newer CD's and crossovers and when the LP's were coming out.
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post #117 of 257 Old 06-27-2013, 08:53 AM
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No I think if they are the 2012 models they would have the latest CD and crossovers.

My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
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post #118 of 257 Old 06-27-2013, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Not when you can get a 3 channel front stage of SHO-10's for around the same price! I have owned both and just my opinion. I prefer the SHO-10 to the 888's myself. I have a 888lp now I don't use which I could sell for cheap.
I thought the SHO-10's were only $395 a piece?

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #119 of 257 Old 06-27-2013, 09:09 AM
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They are but I don't think Chase has any available and I believe sometime in the near future the newest versions will be released.

My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
Axiom Audio QS8 surrounds
Sherbourn PA 7-350
Pioneer VSX-21TXH
JVC RS45
Falcon Screens FVHD105
Dual PSA XS30's (gone but not forgotten)
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post #120 of 257 Old 06-27-2013, 09:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Exactly, and why you should buy the used SHO-10's as that would save you huge money to get dual bigger subs and have fantastic speakers which are every bit as good as the Klipsch.
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Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

+1 to some gently-used SHO-10s. They have a clean, neutral sound; they throw a huge soundstage; and they can play very loud, effortlessly. Excellent speakers for movie use...and not too shabby with music, either! smile.gif

The first time you posted about the SHO-10's, I was interested, but couldn't find anywhere to buy them. Even their website shows as sold out without any expectation of when they'll be available. This is problematic for someone with a deadline. Would 3x HSU HC-1's (an option which was considered earlier) be an equivalent alternative for the SHO-10's?

If I do happen to find some SHO-10's - by some miracle - what do I use for surrounds? More SHO-10's?

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