Receiver recommend for Ascend CMT340SEs and Rythmik 12? - Page 3 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #61 of 76 Old 07-09-2013, 05:15 PM
Member
 
l0nestar8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 132
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

You're right. Nobody is allowed to hear differences in amplifiers unless you say so. Got it.

As you know, your viewpoint is in the scientific minority. As such, it is reasonable and expected, that your viewpoint will be met with extra scrutiny and skepticism.

This is a good thing and promotes progess.

One day after a number of controlled tests, maybe your viewpoint will be in the majority. At that point you will be less scrutinized and the burden of proof will switch sides.

However, until then, it is probably better to state your viewpoint as an unscientifically proven opinion so that we can help the OP.
l0nestar8 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 76 Old 07-09-2013, 06:37 PM
Senior Member
 
BufordTJustice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 443
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by l0nestar8 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

You're right. Nobody is allowed to hear differences in amplifiers unless you say so. Got it.

As you know, your viewpoint is in the scientific minority. As such, it is reasonable and expected, that your viewpoint will be met with extra scrutiny and skepticism.

This is a good thing and promotes progess.

One day after a number of controlled tests, maybe your viewpoint will be in the majority. At that point you will be less scrutinized and the burden of proof will switch sides.

However, until then, it is probably better to state your viewpoint as an unscientifically proven opinion so that we can help the OP.

I understand what you are saying and to a degree, I agree with you.

However, just because groupthink is leaning one way today, doesn't mean that the proponents of same have "proven" what they advocate any more than I have proven my own point. I am not the one advocating an invalidation of dozens of strangers personal listening experiences in favor of a few DBT's. My opponents are the ones making the claim to the exclusion of all other possibilities...so their burden is much higher (and still unproven as a matter of practicality, if nothing else).

Yes, the OP did get quite the roller coaster ride on this one. smile.gif

Also, my quoted response was clothed in sarcasm and was hyperbole.

Arcam AVR300, Panny BDT-500, Toshiba SD-9200 CD transport, Vizio XVT 55" LED/LCD (full direct-backlit w/ local dimming), Arx A5 & A3rx-c Mains, Arx A2rx-c center, HSU VTF-15h, BJC ten white w/ ultrasonically welded connectors.
BufordTJustice is offline  
post #63 of 76 Old 07-09-2013, 07:26 PM
Member
 
l0nestar8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 132
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

However, just because groupthink is leaning one way today, doesn't mean that the proponents of same have "proven" what they advocate any more than I have proven my own point. I am not the one advocating an invalidation of dozens of strangers personal listening experiences in favor of a few DBT's. My opponents are the ones making the claim to the exclusion of all other possibilities...so their burden is much higher (and still unproven as a matter of practicality, if nothing else).

You have to be careful here, because a few double-blind tests is substantially more proof than you have provided. I would love for more of these tests to be conducted to see what the outcome would be. But, until then, your view is not often supported. So however you feel about the topic, it is just that, a feeling.

The best course of action, at this point, would be for you to conduct your own dbt and publish the results. That would help the debate greatly.
beaveav likes this.
l0nestar8 is offline  
post #64 of 76 Old 07-09-2013, 07:50 PM
Senior Member
 
BufordTJustice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 443
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by l0nestar8 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

However, just because groupthink is leaning one way today, doesn't mean that the proponents of same have "proven" what they advocate any more than I have proven my own point. I am not the one advocating an invalidation of dozens of strangers personal listening experiences in favor of a few DBT's. My opponents are the ones making the claim to the exclusion of all other possibilities...so their burden is much higher (and still unproven as a matter of practicality, if nothing else).

You have to be careful here, because a few double-blind tests is substantially more proof than you have provided. I would love for more of these tests to be conducted to see what the outcome would be. But, until then, your view is not often supported. So however you feel about the topic, it is just that, a feeling.

The best course of action, at this point, would be for you to conduct your own dbt and publish the results. That would help the debate greatly.

There's some scholarly information in the other thread that I've provided. A LOT of it. I don't think I need to prove nearly as much as you think I do. I say this respectfully. The pioneers of modern amp design are not nearly as confident as my detractors in this thread.

Arcam AVR300, Panny BDT-500, Toshiba SD-9200 CD transport, Vizio XVT 55" LED/LCD (full direct-backlit w/ local dimming), Arx A5 & A3rx-c Mains, Arx A2rx-c center, HSU VTF-15h, BJC ten white w/ ultrasonically welded connectors.
BufordTJustice is offline  
post #65 of 76 Old 07-09-2013, 08:22 PM
Member
 
l0nestar8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 132
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

There's some scholarly information in the other thread that I've provided. A LOT of it. I don't think I need to prove nearly as much as you think I do. I say this respectfully. The pioneers of modern amp design are not nearly as confident as my detractors in this thread.

I read the links. I didn't see any dbt's, so I'm not sure what your point is.

EDIT: I thought we were trying to determine audible differences, not design theory. That would be a whole other can of worms.
beaveav likes this.
l0nestar8 is offline  
post #66 of 76 Old 07-09-2013, 08:30 PM
Member
 
l0nestar8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 132
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

I don't think I need to prove nearly as much as you think I do. I say this respectfully.

That's like, your opinion, man.
beaveav likes this.
l0nestar8 is offline  
post #67 of 76 Old 07-09-2013, 08:45 PM
Senior Member
 
avfanatic1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 253
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 18
To throw in another opinion, have you heard of the Carver Amp challenge? Basically Bob Carver accepted a challenge from Stereophile (obviously a highly regarded publication) to modify his M-1.0T to sound like a far more expensive amp, which he was essentially able to replicate to their standards and he won the challenge.

As with all electronics, if you opened up two amps they would look completely different. While they certainly behave similarly, you cannot say that they behave EXACTLY the same, therefore there will be differences in how they amplify the sound and therefore how they sound. Now at what point the differences because audible/inaudible is another debate and varies from person to person. I am not in the position to say whether specifically the Emotiva UPA-500 and a $800 denon will sound the same or not, although I find it hard to make a generalization saying that "Every amplifier that meets basic parametrics - and most all do these days - will perform the same when not clipping." What about tube amps vs solid state? If they are rated the same amperage do they really sound exactly the same?

In my experience I have heard a clear difference sound between receivers (specifically a cheap 5 yr old KLH receiver and a 20 yr old Pioneer) I have heard, but this combines both the preamp and amp so I concur it isn't a fair comparison. I feel like the preamp makes more of a difference in sound, although this would require some further investigation on my part and I'd be curious to hear other's as well.

Edit: More detail about the challenge see http://www.stereophile.com/content/carver-challenge
BufordTJustice likes this.
avfanatic1 is offline  
post #68 of 76 Old 07-09-2013, 10:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
beaveav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,830
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 61 Post(s)
Liked: 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by avfanatic1 View Post

To throw in another opinion, have you heard of the Carver Amp challenge? Basically Bob Carver accepted a challenge from Stereophile (obviously a highly regarded publication) to modify his M-1.0T to sound like a far more expensive amp, which he was essentially able to replicate to their standards and he won the challenge.

As with all electronics, if you opened up two amps they would look completely different. While they certainly behave similarly, you cannot say that they behave EXACTLY the same, therefore there will be differences in how they amplify the sound and therefore how they sound. Now at what point the differences because audible/inaudible is another debate and varies from person to person. I am not in the position to say whether specifically the Emotiva UPA-500 and a $800 denon will sound the same or not, although I find it hard to make a generalization saying that "Every amplifier that meets basic parametrics - and most all do these days - will perform the same when not clipping." What about tube amps vs solid state? If they are rated the same amperage do they really sound exactly the same?

In my experience I have heard a clear difference sound between receivers (specifically a cheap 5 yr old KLH receiver and a 20 yr old Pioneer) I have heard, but this combines both the preamp and amp so I concur it isn't a fair comparison. I feel like the preamp makes more of a difference in sound, although this would require some further investigation on my part and I'd be curious to hear other's as well.

Edit: More detail about the challenge see http://www.stereophile.com/content/carver-challenge

Not relevant. The point Carver made was that he could make a solid-state amp sound like a tube amp, basically by mucking up the design of the solid state amp. Tube amps measure differently than solid state amps in output impedance sufficiently so to lead to audible differences. The claim that "all amps sound the same when they meet basic parametrics" excludes tube amps precisely because they do NOT meet those basic parametrics.

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
beaveav is offline  
post #69 of 76 Old 07-10-2013, 12:36 AM
Advanced Member
 
BarnacleBill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: San Francicso
Posts: 505
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Excuse me, but this is a Speakers forum.

Also, saying the same thing over and over and over again does not make for interesting reading, or enlightenment,
BarnacleBill is offline  
post #70 of 76 Old 07-10-2013, 08:49 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
texastexayeehaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Guys

I appreciate the spirited debates, I'm learning a lot. Setting aside the option of using an amp, I will definitely need a receiver. Could the experts and enthusiasts weigh in on some good options?

Nethawk recommended a receiver with Audyssey MultEQ XT technology ala Denon 2313CI.
afrogt made me a nice list: Marantz 5007, Denon 3313, Pioneer SC-1222 and SC-1522, Yamaha RX-A820, Onkyo NR818.

I'm having trouble differentiating but the largest differences seem to lie in watts per channel. I read an article saying that this is mostly meaningless and that weight is a good indicator:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-9765657-47.html


This article tells me to consider factors such as Total Harmonic Distortion, Signal to Noise Ratio, and Dynamic headroom.
http://hometheater.about.com/cs/audiocomponents/a/aapowermada.htm

When I look at specs for these measures, I cannot find them. Any advice?



The more I learn the more confused I get! smile.gif
Thanks
-Texas
texastexayeehaw is offline  
post #71 of 76 Old 07-10-2013, 11:05 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cel4145's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 11,758
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 246 Post(s)
Liked: 780
Quote:
Originally Posted by texastexayeehaw View Post

I'm having trouble differentiating but the largest differences seem to lie in watts per channel. I read an article saying that this is mostly meaningless and that weight is a good indicator:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-9765657-47.html


This article tells me to consider factors such as Total Harmonic Distortion, Signal to Noise Ratio, and Dynamic headroom.
http://hometheater.about.com/cs/audiocomponents/a/aapowermada.htm

When I look at specs for these measures, I cannot find them. Any advice?

The problem is that manufacturers may measure things differently, and some are more honest than others with their specs.

Best thing to do is look and see what features you want.

Personally, I would go with Audyssey MultEQ or MultEQ XT because it provides room correction for both the speakers AND the sub. Most other room correction does not EQ the sub. Subs often need EQ correction as much or more than the speakers to do to get a good response.
BufordTJustice likes this.

Your questions are answered: Speaker FAQ
HT: Energy RC-50, RC-LCR, Veritas VS Surrounds | Dual CHT SS 18.1s | Denon AVR-888 | modified Dayton SA1000 | Antimode 8033C
Desktop: CBM-170 SE | SVS SB-1000 | Audio-GD NFB-11 | HK 3390
Headphone & Portable HE-400 | K612 Pro | HP150 | DX50 | E12
cel4145 is online now  
post #72 of 76 Old 07-10-2013, 11:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Nethawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,513
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 115
^^ I would personally ignore most of the characteristics you list and focus on feature set. There is going to be a very minor deviation in specs across the wider spectrum of AVR offerings. Definitely ignore cnet, most of their writers have perfected shoot from the hip analyses quite well but this is seldom valuable.

For an example of features and to think about what might be important to you, I would encourage you to view the excellent work in summarizing Denon receivers with each year's new offerings. Batpig does an incredible job of breaking down capabilities and highlighting the importance between models. There may be similar posts for Onkyo, Pioneer, etc. but I'm not sure. While not specifically recommending Denon, I am a fan and have owned their receivers for about 15 years now.

The official Denon AVR-XX13 Model Owner's Thread & FAQ (2012 models, currently big sales running on these)

The 'Official' 2013 Denon "E Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ

Nethawk is offline  
post #73 of 76 Old 07-10-2013, 11:10 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Nethawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,513
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 115
Hah, once again cel4145 and I are in lockstep, once again he beat me to the punch. Bastid. biggrin.gif

Nethawk is offline  
post #74 of 76 Old 07-10-2013, 11:31 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cel4145's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 11,758
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 246 Post(s)
Liked: 780
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

Hah, once again cel4145 and I are in lockstep, once again he beat me to the punch. Bastid. biggrin.gif

Yeah. I was just lucky today. smile.gif

Hey, but when someone gets a similar recommendation from two people posting at the same time without reading the other, that's a good sign it's a good recommendation smile.gif

Your questions are answered: Speaker FAQ
HT: Energy RC-50, RC-LCR, Veritas VS Surrounds | Dual CHT SS 18.1s | Denon AVR-888 | modified Dayton SA1000 | Antimode 8033C
Desktop: CBM-170 SE | SVS SB-1000 | Audio-GD NFB-11 | HK 3390
Headphone & Portable HE-400 | K612 Pro | HP150 | DX50 | E12
cel4145 is online now  
post #75 of 76 Old 07-10-2013, 12:18 PM
Member
 
l0nestar8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 132
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarnacleBill View Post

Excuse me, but this is a Speakers forum.

Also, saying the same thing over and over and over again does not make for interesting reading, or enlightenment,

Same could be said of your post.

#glasshouse
l0nestar8 is offline  
post #76 of 76 Old 07-10-2013, 12:35 PM
Advanced Member
 
Ozzie Isaac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 531
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 97
To the OP .....

Denon 1713 can be had new for around 330, has all the bells&whistles minus 4K pass thru. Even has Audyssey MULTIEQ XT, just not XT 32. It is also 5.1, not 7.1, but if you don't need 7.1 it is actually a step up from the 1913.
Ozzie Isaac is offline  
Reply Speakers

Tags
Ascend Acoustics Cmt 340 Se Center , Marantz Sr5007 Home Theater Av Receiver , Denon Avr 3313ci Receiver , Pioneer Sc 1222 7 2 Channel Network Ready Av Receiver , Pioneer Sc 1522k 9 2 Channel Av Receiver , Yamaha Rx A820 7 2 Channel Network Aventage Av Receiver , Onkyo Tx Nr818
Gear in this thread - 3313ci by PriceGrabber.com

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off