Receiver recommend for Ascend CMT340SEs and Rythmik 12? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 76 Old 07-07-2013, 10:37 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
texastexayeehaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi all

A total audio noob here - After reading many threads and doing research, I've decided to take the dive into the world of Hi-Fi and purchase a system for music and movies. I want to run a 3 340s (L R C) channels and a sub. Any recommends for a good receiver that would augment this setup? Looking to spend upwards of $700. All advice welcome smile.gif

Many thanks
-texastexasyeehaw
texastexayeehaw is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 76 Old 07-07-2013, 11:08 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
afrogt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 22,766
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked: 351
You probably don't need to spend $700 but if that's how high you're willing to go look at the Marantz 5007, Denon 3313, Pioneer SC-1222 and SC-1522, Yamaha RX-A820, Onkyo NR818 and others.

Afro GT
afrogt is online now  
post #3 of 76 Old 07-07-2013, 11:59 PM
Senior Member
 
BufordTJustice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 430
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 33
I don't think you would necessarily benefit from spending more than $399-$499 on a receiver unless you needed the additional features (i.e. iPod compatibility, etc.) or additional inputs. I think a reasonably priced receiver from Accesories4less dot com and an external amplifier from Emotiva (to power the front 3 channels) would be a killer app for you and that you could easily do all that for under a grand with warranties all around.

Arcam AVR300, Panny BDT-500, Toshiba SD-9200 CD transport, Vizio XVT 55" LED/LCD (full direct-backlit w/ local dimming), Arx A5 & A3rx-c Mains, Arx A2rx-c center, HSU VTF-15h, BJC ten white w/ ultrasonically welded connectors.
BufordTJustice is offline  
post #4 of 76 Old 07-08-2013, 12:17 AM
 
losservatore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,946
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked: 228
No need to spend $700 on a Av receiver unless you need the bells and whistles.
losservatore is offline  
post #5 of 76 Old 07-08-2013, 06:51 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cel4145's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 11,263
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 64 Post(s)
Liked: 647
How big is your room in total volume (not area) including any additional open connecting spaces? If you are looking at a Rythmik F12 for the sub, while an excellent sounding sub, it may not be enough for larger rooms. In that case, you would be better to go with a less expensive receiver like the others are recommending and get a larger sub.

cel4145 is online now  
post #6 of 76 Old 07-08-2013, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
texastexayeehaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Wow thanks for the advice!

The room is roughly 15x12x8. It is an apartment and I worry a large sub might bother the neighbors? Any of yall have experience with that? Could you explain more about an external amplifier? Many many thanks
texastexayeehaw is offline  
post #7 of 76 Old 07-08-2013, 09:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Chevypower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,163
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 38
I got a b-stock Yamaha Aventage RX-A820 for $500 with free shipping. It looked as good as A-stock to me! I bought it from Beverly Hills Electronics from their eBay store, they are still selling them for that price.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-Rx-A820-7-2-Channel-Home-3D-Receiver-Rxa820-Great-Bargain-/281105274617?pt=Receivers_Tuners&hash=item41732e16f9
Chevypower is offline  
post #8 of 76 Old 07-08-2013, 10:27 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Nethawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,513
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 114
Since you live in an apartment and high volume is not likely, just about any receiver will do (although I would stretch to ensure good bass management and EQ are included). It's not likely that you will need external amplification, so preamp output is something you can save on. Since I'm a fan of Denon and a good deal I might suggest last year's Denon AVR-2113CI (its the cheapest from last year that includes Audyssey MultEQ XT). My personal favorite is the 2313CI, which adds a bit of breathing room for flexible scalability and is only $60 more from accessories4less. You can go cheaper with the 1913 and lower, aside from additional processing and power feature sets you're only getting MultiEQ, still good. Check the first two posts of this thread for details.

Nethawk is offline  
post #9 of 76 Old 07-08-2013, 10:45 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cel4145's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 11,263
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 64 Post(s)
Liked: 647
Quote:
Originally Posted by texastexayeehaw View Post

Wow thanks for the advice!

The room is roughly 15x12x8. It is an apartment and I worry a large sub might bother the neighbors? Any of yall have experience with that? Could you explain more about an external amplifier? Many many thanks

The F12 should definitely be enough sub for that space, and doubtful you need an external amp unless you are planning on making the neighbors mad smile.gif

I would recommend a receiver with Audyssey MultEQ or better (not the 2EQ version) room correction software. MultEQ will automagically EQ both the speakers and the sub, whereas most other room correction software only EQs the speakers. Subs often need EQ help as much as the speakers.

cel4145 is online now  
post #10 of 76 Old 07-08-2013, 03:00 PM
Senior Member
 
BufordTJustice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 430
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by texastexayeehaw View Post

Wow thanks for the advice!

The room is roughly 15x12x8. It is an apartment and I worry a large sub might bother the neighbors? Any of yall have experience with that? Could you explain more about an external amplifier? Many many thanks

Good advice from the others. External amplification begins with RCA pre-amplifier (pre amp) outputs on the rear of your receiver. This means they are controlled by the receiver's volume control and are benefited by its DSP, room correction, and other processing. Even if the external amplifier is of a lower rated wattage output, the watts tend to be "bigger" than those coming from a receiver's internal amplifier. Example, the UPA-500 has five 80 watt RMS channels, but weighs nearly 23 pounds...which is basically what the other receivers in your price category will weigh. How is it possible for them to have identical amplifiers of identical quality and fidelity if one is just an amplifier and another has to include all kinds of other bits for processing video, multiple inputs and outputs, a big display, multiple internal boards, etc? I'll let you decide, Tex. wink.gif

I think your killer app is to go on one of the above receiver recs and pair it with an amp like the Emotiva UPA-500 ($359 for 5x80 watts) or the XPA-3 ($629 for 3x200 watts). Just use any quality RCA cables to connect the two.

http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/upa500

EDIT: I'll add that the main benefit of an external amplifier is rarely increased volume output before amp clipping...it is increased fidelity at all volume levels. The differences between a receiver and external amplifier are usually most glaring at low to moderate output levels when listening to music. If somebody wants more volume output, then they need to invest in some high efficiency speakers as even a doubling of wattage output only makes negligible increase in perceived volume. The fidelity is why I'm making my rec for an external amp.

Arcam AVR300, Panny BDT-500, Toshiba SD-9200 CD transport, Vizio XVT 55" LED/LCD (full direct-backlit w/ local dimming), Arx A5 & A3rx-c Mains, Arx A2rx-c center, HSU VTF-15h, BJC ten white w/ ultrasonically welded connectors.
BufordTJustice is offline  
post #11 of 76 Old 07-08-2013, 03:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
beaveav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,720
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

...

EDIT: I'll add that the main benefit of an external amplifier is rarely increased volume output before amp clipping...it is increased fidelity at all volume levels. The differences between a receiver and external amplifier are usually most glaring at low to moderate output levels when listening to music. If somebody wants more volume output, then they need to invest in some high efficiency speakers as even a doubling of wattage output only makes negligible increase in perceived volume. The fidelity is why I'm making my rec for an external amp.

Increased fidelity at all volume levels? As ArnyK would say, that's an audiophile myth. Just not true.

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
beaveav is offline  
post #12 of 76 Old 07-08-2013, 04:14 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cschang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA
Posts: 14,730
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

Good advice from the others. External amplification begins with RCA pre-amplifier (pre amp) outputs on the rear of your receiver. This means they are controlled by the receiver's volume control and are benefited by its DSP, room correction, and other processing. Even if the external amplifier is of a lower rated wattage output, the watts tend to be "bigger" than those coming from a receiver's internal amplifier. Example, the UPA-500 has five 80 watt RMS channels, but weighs nearly 23 pounds...which is basically what the other receivers in your price category will weigh. How is it possible for them to have identical amplifiers of identical quality and fidelity if one is just an amplifier and another has to include all kinds of other bits for processing video, multiple inputs and outputs, a big display, multiple internal boards, etc? I'll let you decide, Tex. wink.gif
I would be surprised if those integrated circuits, parts, and various "bits" that do those tasks weigh more than a pound or two. A PC motherboard with a CPU and memory, barely weight that. Most of the weight is in the power supply.
beaveav likes this.

-curtis

Owner of Wave Crest Audio
Volunteer Mod at the Ascend Acoustics Forum
Like all things on the Internet, do your research, as forums have a good amount of misinformation.
Help beat breast cancer!

cschang is offline  
post #13 of 76 Old 07-08-2013, 04:17 PM
Senior Member
 
BufordTJustice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 430
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

...

EDIT: I'll add that the main benefit of an external amplifier is rarely increased volume output before amp clipping...it is increased fidelity at all volume levels. The differences between a receiver and external amplifier are usually most glaring at low to moderate output levels when listening to music. If somebody wants more volume output, then they need to invest in some high efficiency speakers as even a doubling of wattage output only makes negligible increase in perceived volume. The fidelity is why I'm making my rec for an external amp.

Increased fidelity at all volume levels? As ArnyK would say, that's an audiophile myth. Just not true.

So Emotiva is full of lies and their existence superfluous and unnecessary? You're going to have to argue with thousands of satisfied customers on that one. Also, you can't tell me that a 22lb amplifier and a 22lb receiver have the same current delivery capability. THAT, my friend, is a marketing myth if there ever were one.

Also, I'm far too poor to be an audiophile.

Arcam AVR300, Panny BDT-500, Toshiba SD-9200 CD transport, Vizio XVT 55" LED/LCD (full direct-backlit w/ local dimming), Arx A5 & A3rx-c Mains, Arx A2rx-c center, HSU VTF-15h, BJC ten white w/ ultrasonically welded connectors.
BufordTJustice is offline  
post #14 of 76 Old 07-08-2013, 04:18 PM
Senior Member
 
BufordTJustice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 430
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

Good advice from the others. External amplification begins with RCA pre-amplifier (pre amp) outputs on the rear of your receiver. This means they are controlled by the receiver's volume control and are benefited by its DSP, room correction, and other processing. Even if the external amplifier is of a lower rated wattage output, the watts tend to be "bigger" than those coming from a receiver's internal amplifier. Example, the UPA-500 has five 80 watt RMS channels, but weighs nearly 23 pounds...which is basically what the other receivers in your price category will weigh. How is it possible for them to have identical amplifiers of identical quality and fidelity if one is just an amplifier and another has to include all kinds of other bits for processing video, multiple inputs and outputs, a big display, multiple internal boards, etc? I'll let you decide, Tex. wink.gif
I would be surprised if those integrated circuits, parts, and various "bits" that do those tasks weigh more than a pound or two. A PC motherboard with a CPU and memory, barely weight that. Most of the weight is in the power supply.

So you're saying that a 22lb receiver and a 22lb external amplifier are fully equal in all measureable ways? Even A*dioholics disagrees with you on that. wink.gif

Arcam AVR300, Panny BDT-500, Toshiba SD-9200 CD transport, Vizio XVT 55" LED/LCD (full direct-backlit w/ local dimming), Arx A5 & A3rx-c Mains, Arx A2rx-c center, HSU VTF-15h, BJC ten white w/ ultrasonically welded connectors.
BufordTJustice is offline  
post #15 of 76 Old 07-08-2013, 04:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
beaveav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,720
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

So you're saying that a 22lb receiver and a 22lb external amplifier are fully equal in all measureable ways? Even A*dioholics disagrees with you on that. wink.gif

Of course they're not equal in all measurable ways. One - the AVR - is likely loaded with all sorts of extra features, such as video processing and room correction, the latter of which can make audible differences.

You might be able to make a case that the dedicated amp can push more power before clipping (because of a larger transformer, larger power supply caps, larger heat sinks, etc), but that's certainly not what you stated earlier.

Please cite the Audioholics article you mention. I think I know what you're referencing but want to be sure.

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
beaveav is offline  
post #16 of 76 Old 07-08-2013, 04:28 PM
Senior Member
 
BufordTJustice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 430
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

So you're saying that a 22lb receiver and a 22lb external amplifier are fully equal in all measureable ways? Even A*dioholics disagrees with you on that. wink.gif

Of course they're not equal in all measurable ways. One is obviously heavier, and weight is measurable. But it's not audible.

You might be able to make a case that the heavier amp can push more power before clipping (because of a larger transformer, larger power supply caps, larger heat sinks, etc), but that's certainly not what you stated earlier.

Please cite the Audioholics article you mention. I think I know what you're referencing but want to be sure.

Gene disagrees:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/amplifiers/upa-500-amplifier/upa-500-conclusion

"The UPA-500 delivers clean, low noise, meaty amplification that will surely bring new life to a whimpering department store A/V receiver. It’s honestly rated and has no issues driving low impedance loads while remaining cool in operation even under the most strenuous test conditions on the bench. If you’re looking for a step up in sound quality and power on the cheap, I can’t think of a better option on the market."

Apparently it's measurable AND audible.

At 22lbs, it's right at the weight of most mass market receivers under ~$800 (and less than several).


EDIT:
Denon AVR-1913: 20.06lbs
Denon AVR-2313CI: 24.03 lbs
Denon AVR-3313CI: 26.45lbs
Denon AVR-X3000: 23.58lbs

Arcam AVR300, Panny BDT-500, Toshiba SD-9200 CD transport, Vizio XVT 55" LED/LCD (full direct-backlit w/ local dimming), Arx A5 & A3rx-c Mains, Arx A2rx-c center, HSU VTF-15h, BJC ten white w/ ultrasonically welded connectors.
BufordTJustice is offline  
post #17 of 76 Old 07-08-2013, 04:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Nethawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,513
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 114
^^^ There's also Emotiva ads across most of audioholics pages. Could be a coincidence, I dunno. wink.gif
beaveav likes this.

Nethawk is offline  
post #18 of 76 Old 07-08-2013, 04:43 PM
Senior Member
 
BufordTJustice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 430
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Also seeing that the VA rating for a laminated core transformer lags far behind that of an equivalent-weight toroidal transformer (which is what Emotiva uses), you can't even begin to convince me that the amps within a receiver (using a laminated core transformer) are capable of the same current output, slew rate, etc as those of an equivalent weight toroidal transformer based design. The math doesn't add up. Period.

Arcam AVR300, Panny BDT-500, Toshiba SD-9200 CD transport, Vizio XVT 55" LED/LCD (full direct-backlit w/ local dimming), Arx A5 & A3rx-c Mains, Arx A2rx-c center, HSU VTF-15h, BJC ten white w/ ultrasonically welded connectors.
BufordTJustice is offline  
post #19 of 76 Old 07-08-2013, 04:44 PM
Senior Member
 
BufordTJustice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 430
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

^^^ There's also Emotiva ads across most of audioholics pages. Could be a coincidence, I dunno. wink.gif

That's a whole 'nother issue. eek.gif

Arcam AVR300, Panny BDT-500, Toshiba SD-9200 CD transport, Vizio XVT 55" LED/LCD (full direct-backlit w/ local dimming), Arx A5 & A3rx-c Mains, Arx A2rx-c center, HSU VTF-15h, BJC ten white w/ ultrasonically welded connectors.
BufordTJustice is offline  
post #20 of 76 Old 07-08-2013, 04:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,275
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1192
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

Increased fidelity at all volume levels? As ArnyK would say, that's an audiophile myth. Just not true.
+1. Virtually any half way decent AVR has fidelity that won't be audibly exceeded by any power amp. A separate power amp may have higher current delivery, but that's not the same thing as higher fidelity. As for the weight of any piece of gear, that's moot, and has no correlation with either fidelity or current delivery. I doubt if anyone would find fault with this because it only weighs 17.7 pounds:
http://www.powersoft-audio.com/en/products/touring-amplifiers/k-series/k2.html

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is online now  
post #21 of 76 Old 07-08-2013, 04:54 PM
Senior Member
 
BufordTJustice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 430
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

Increased fidelity at all volume levels? As ArnyK would say, that's an audiophile myth. Just not true.
+1. Virtually any half way decent AVR has fidelity that won't be audibly exceeded by any power amp. A separate power amp may have higher current delivery, but that's not the same thing as higher fidelity. As for the weight of any piece of gear, that's moot, and has no correlation with either fidelity or current delivery. I doubt if anyone would find fault with this because it only weighs 17.7 pounds:
http://www.powersoft-audio.com/en/products/touring-amplifiers/k-series/k2.html

Apples and oranges. That's not class A/B.

EDIT: also, correct me if I'm wrong Bill, but going by that same line of thinking, ANY amplifier that has a roughly equivalent wattage output should sound identical to any other?

That has not been professional or my personal experience. I've used every amp Crown had to offer up until mid-2009, every QSC, the bigger Lab Gruppens, and nearly every EV offering (and several other brands as well). Even over PA systems like the L-Acoustics V-DOSC, none of them sound exactly the same, as was the consensus of every FOH engineer I worked with. Which I would imagine is why tour riders from various acts sometimes included the brand of amplifier (and line array) to be provided for their show.

We may have to agree to disagree here.

Arcam AVR300, Panny BDT-500, Toshiba SD-9200 CD transport, Vizio XVT 55" LED/LCD (full direct-backlit w/ local dimming), Arx A5 & A3rx-c Mains, Arx A2rx-c center, HSU VTF-15h, BJC ten white w/ ultrasonically welded connectors.
BufordTJustice is offline  
post #22 of 76 Old 07-08-2013, 05:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
beaveav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,720
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

So Emotiva is full of lies and their existence superfluous and unnecessary? You're going to have to argue with thousands of satisfied customers on that one. Also, you can't tell me that a 22lb amplifier and a 22lb receiver have the same current delivery capability. THAT, my friend, is a marketing myth if there ever were one.

Also, I'm far too poor to be an audiophile.

So, tell me again, what is your claim? Because you keep changing it. Yeah, a 22lb amp might have more current delivery capability than a 22lb receiver. So what? You claimed that the 22lb amp would sound better at all levels, didn't you? The increased current delivery capability would only come into play at high levels.

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
beaveav is offline  
post #23 of 76 Old 07-08-2013, 05:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
beaveav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,720
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

Gene disagrees:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/amplifiers/upa-500-amplifier/upa-500-conclusion

"The UPA-500 delivers clean, low noise, meaty amplification that will surely bring new life to a whimpering department store A/V receiver. It’s honestly rated and has no issues driving low impedance loads while remaining cool in operation even under the most strenuous test conditions on the bench. If you’re looking for a step up in sound quality and power on the cheap, I can’t think of a better option on the market."

Apparently it's measurable AND audible.

At 22lbs, it's right at the weight of most mass market receivers under ~$800 (and less than several).


EDIT:
Denon AVR-1913: 20.06lbs
Denon AVR-2313CI: 24.03 lbs
Denon AVR-3313CI: 26.45lbs
Denon AVR-X3000: 23.58lbs

With all due respect to Gene, that's hardly a rigorous, scientific claim. It's the typical overstatement and bluster you find in reviews. I think even Gene would acknowledge that.

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
beaveav is offline  
post #24 of 76 Old 07-08-2013, 05:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
beaveav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,720
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

Also seeing that the VA rating for a laminated core transformer lags far behind that of an equivalent-weight toroidal transformer (which is what Emotiva uses), you can't even begin to convince me that the amps within a receiver (using a laminated core transformer) are capable of the same current output, slew rate, etc as those of an equivalent weight toroidal transformer based design. The math doesn't add up. Period.

Yeah, a toroid may have a higher V/A rating for a given weight than a laminated core transformer, but again, what does that have to do with audio quality at levels below clipping?

And a toroid costs a lot more for that savings in size/weight.

You could use that money to buy a bigger laminated transformer that has a higher VA rating, but then it wouldn't look as cool, would it? Then you could *potentially* have more current output capability, but that would depend on other factors as well.

Please define slew rate and tell me how it is audibly superior in amps vs receivers.

What math did you use when you claimed "the math doesn't add up?" I didn't see any math, just some random, unsupported claims.

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
beaveav is offline  
post #25 of 76 Old 07-08-2013, 05:07 PM
Senior Member
 
BufordTJustice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 430
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

So Emotiva is full of lies and their existence superfluous and unnecessary? You're going to have to argue with thousands of satisfied customers on that one. Also, you can't tell me that a 22lb amplifier and a 22lb receiver have the same current delivery capability. THAT, my friend, is a marketing myth if there ever were one.

Also, I'm far too poor to be an audiophile.

So, tell me again, what is your claim? Because you keep changing it. Yeah, a 22lb amp might have more current delivery capability than a 22lb receiver. So what? You claimed that the 22lb amp would sound better at all levels, didn't you? The increased current delivery capability would only come into play at high levels.

I've changed nothing in my claim from post # 10:

"EDIT: I'll add that the main benefit of an external amplifier is rarely increased volume output before amp clipping...it is increased fidelity at all volume levels. The differences between a receiver and external amplifier are usually most glaring at low to moderate output levels when listening to music. If somebody wants more volume output, then they need to invest in some high efficiency speakers as even a doubling of wattage output only makes negligible increase in perceived volume. The fidelity is why I'm making my rec for an external amp."

You stated in # 11:
"Increased fidelity at all volume levels? As ArnyK would say, that's an audiophile myth. Just not true."

And I'm telling you that a LOT of industry professionals have not shared your experience. This is either going to have to be an agree-to-disagree or it's going to turn into a thread de-rail.

Arcam AVR300, Panny BDT-500, Toshiba SD-9200 CD transport, Vizio XVT 55" LED/LCD (full direct-backlit w/ local dimming), Arx A5 & A3rx-c Mains, Arx A2rx-c center, HSU VTF-15h, BJC ten white w/ ultrasonically welded connectors.
BufordTJustice is offline  
post #26 of 76 Old 07-08-2013, 05:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
beaveav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,720
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

+1. Virtually any half way decent AVR has fidelity that won't be audibly exceeded by any power amp. A separate power amp may have higher current delivery, but that's not the same thing as higher fidelity. As for the weight of any piece of gear, that's moot, and has no correlation with either fidelity or current delivery. I doubt if anyone would find fault with this because it only weighs 17.7 pounds:
http://www.powersoft-audio.com/en/products/touring-amplifiers/k-series/k2.html

Thanks for the voice of reason.

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
beaveav is offline  
post #27 of 76 Old 07-08-2013, 05:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
beaveav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,720
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

I've changed nothing in my claim from post # 10:

"EDIT: I'll add that the main benefit of an external amplifier is rarely increased volume output before amp clipping...it is increased fidelity at all volume levels. The differences between a receiver and external amplifier are usually most glaring at low to moderate output levels when listening to music. If somebody wants more volume output, then they need to invest in some high efficiency speakers as even a doubling of wattage output only makes negligible increase in perceived volume. The fidelity is why I'm making my rec for an external amp."

You stated in # 11:
"Increased fidelity at all volume levels? As ArnyK would say, that's an audiophile myth. Just not true."

And I'm telling you that a LOT of industry professionals have not shared your experience. This is either going to have to be an agree-to-disagree or it's going to turn into a thread de-rail.

Feel free to take that claim to the AVR section, the Audio theory section, or the 2-channel section, and watch it get shredded by various posters.

"A LOT" of industry professionals means nothing to me. They make claims that support, guess what, their industry. $$. Their claims are not supported by rigorous A/B testing.

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
beaveav is offline  
post #28 of 76 Old 07-08-2013, 05:11 PM
Senior Member
 
BufordTJustice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 430
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

Also seeing that the VA rating for a laminated core transformer lags far behind that of an equivalent-weight toroidal transformer (which is what Emotiva uses), you can't even begin to convince me that the amps within a receiver (using a laminated core transformer) are capable of the same current output, slew rate, etc as those of an equivalent weight toroidal transformer based design. The math doesn't add up. Period.

Yeah, a toroid may have a higher V/A rating for a given weight than a laminated core transformer, but again, what does that have to do with audio quality at levels below clipping?

And a toroid costs a lot more for that savings in size/weight.

You could use that money to buy a bigger laminated transformer that has a higher VA rating, but then it wouldn't look as cool, would it? Then you could *potentially* have more current output capability, but that would depend on other factors as well.

Please define slew rate and tell me how it is audibly superior in amps vs receivers.

What math did you use when you claimed "the math doesn't add up?" I didn't see any math, just some random, unsupported claims.

Again, you're stating that every amplifier sounds the same when not clipping, no? If that is what you are saying, then I disagree with that.

The math I used was that, for a given VA rating, a laminated core transformer will weigh more than a toroidal transformer. Period. Every time. It will also have more stray EMI being emitted.

Arcam AVR300, Panny BDT-500, Toshiba SD-9200 CD transport, Vizio XVT 55" LED/LCD (full direct-backlit w/ local dimming), Arx A5 & A3rx-c Mains, Arx A2rx-c center, HSU VTF-15h, BJC ten white w/ ultrasonically welded connectors.
BufordTJustice is offline  
post #29 of 76 Old 07-08-2013, 05:11 PM
Senior Member
 
BufordTJustice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 430
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

I've changed nothing in my claim from post # 10:

"EDIT: I'll add that the main benefit of an external amplifier is rarely increased volume output before amp clipping...it is increased fidelity at all volume levels. The differences between a receiver and external amplifier are usually most glaring at low to moderate output levels when listening to music. If somebody wants more volume output, then they need to invest in some high efficiency speakers as even a doubling of wattage output only makes negligible increase in perceived volume. The fidelity is why I'm making my rec for an external amp."

You stated in # 11:
"Increased fidelity at all volume levels? As ArnyK would say, that's an audiophile myth. Just not true."

And I'm telling you that a LOT of industry professionals have not shared your experience. This is either going to have to be an agree-to-disagree or it's going to turn into a thread de-rail.

Feel free to take that claim to the AVR section, the Audio theory section, or the 2-channel section, and watch it get shredded by various posters.

"A LOT" of industry professionals means nothing to me. They make claims that support, guess what, their industry. $$. Their claims are not supported by rigorous A/B testing.

FOH and monitor engineers do not get paid by amplifier manufacturers. Where are you getting this?

EDIT: I'll add that FOH and monitor engineers usually come from one of 3 places: 1) they travel with the act, 2) from an outside vendor, 3) from the venue. They don't typically make a ton of cash and they certainly don't receive kickbacks or other party favors from amplifier manufacturers.

Arcam AVR300, Panny BDT-500, Toshiba SD-9200 CD transport, Vizio XVT 55" LED/LCD (full direct-backlit w/ local dimming), Arx A5 & A3rx-c Mains, Arx A2rx-c center, HSU VTF-15h, BJC ten white w/ ultrasonically welded connectors.
BufordTJustice is offline  
post #30 of 76 Old 07-08-2013, 05:16 PM
Senior Member
 
BufordTJustice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 430
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

So Emotiva is full of lies and their existence superfluous and unnecessary? You're going to have to argue with thousands of satisfied customers on that one. Also, you can't tell me that a 22lb amplifier and a 22lb receiver have the same current delivery capability. THAT, my friend, is a marketing myth if there ever were one.

Also, I'm far too poor to be an audiophile.

So, tell me again, what is your claim? Because you keep changing it. Yeah, a 22lb amp might have more current delivery capability than a 22lb receiver. So what? You claimed that the 22lb amp would sound better at all levels, didn't you? The increased current delivery capability would only come into play at high levels.

Also, by this same logic, a 2-watt amplifier can and does sound identical to a 200 watt amplifier as long as neither are being clipped. I disagree with this and I'm not alone. I hear differences even between amplifiers of identical wattage ratings.

I suppose you'll say that Taylor and Martin acoustic guitars sound the same just because they are the same size, same dimensions, and made out of the same types of wood, no?

If you don't hear the differences, that's fine. I'm not making fun of you. I do hear them.

Arcam AVR300, Panny BDT-500, Toshiba SD-9200 CD transport, Vizio XVT 55" LED/LCD (full direct-backlit w/ local dimming), Arx A5 & A3rx-c Mains, Arx A2rx-c center, HSU VTF-15h, BJC ten white w/ ultrasonically welded connectors.
BufordTJustice is offline  
Reply Speakers

Tags
Ascend Acoustics Cmt 340 Se Center , Marantz Sr5007 Home Theater Av Receiver , Denon Avr 3313ci Receiver , Pioneer Sc 1222 7 2 Channel Network Ready Av Receiver , Pioneer Sc 1522k 9 2 Channel Av Receiver , Yamaha Rx A820 7 2 Channel Network Aventage Av Receiver , Onkyo Tx Nr818
Gear in this thread

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off