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post #1 of 39 Old 07-10-2013, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi all, I am new to the forum and also new to home speakers, wiring, and any form of entertainment setups. If if doesn't have the wire with the yellow, white, and red hookup, I am lost. Well sort of. I am pretty good at figuring things out but would like expert advice from veterans here. I am in the building phase of my home, and began researching last week how to DIY. Reason being, I received a quote for 11k from a local media business. I am doing a 5.1 in the living area with a 60" TV. Upstairs in the bonus room I am doing a 5.1 as well. This will be with a Epson 8350 projector. I also want to have 2 speakers in ceiling outside under the patio. And lastly, 2 speakers in kitchen ceiling. The patio and kitchen are only for background music. I ordered 500ft of 14awg cl2 speaker wire. Now the fun of installing begins. I think I know how to do both 5.1 surrounds (tell me where I'm wrong). Pre-wiring would just be running a LF, center, RF, Left rear, and right rear wire to the area I want the in-wall speakers and the end of the wires will come out in the component closet to hook directly in the receiver. I will need 2 receivers (one for upstairs bonus room and one for living area). Then I will prewire the 2 patio speakers and run the end of the wires to the same receiver that my living area 5.1 is hooked up to? The same thing for the 2 kitchen speakers also to the living area receiver that the 5.1 is hooked up to? Is there enough room in the receiver for the 5.1 and also all 4 speakers (kitchen and patio)? How can I watch a game in the living room and play music on the patio? Can I play music on patio and listen to the tv 5.1 in the living room? Can I switch something if I wanted to have to game playing throughout the patio and kitchen and also have it playing on the tv 5.1/TV? Really have a big grey area in my head with the music portion of this. I may have company over watching a football game in the living area. If we are cooking out, how can I get the game to play on the patio speakers and 5.1? Thanks for the help. I have questions about should I install volume controls for the music as well, but we'll tackle that after the first part is clearer.
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post #2 of 39 Old 07-10-2013, 11:49 AM
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You could get one receiver for the living room that has 2 additional zones for your patio and kitchen. However, a 9-channel receiver is not cheap, it might be easier to find a 7.1 receiver with zone 3 pre-outs, for which you can attach a small external amp to power the last 2 speakers.

Or, if you get 2 7.1 receivers you could let each one power its respective room and let each one handle an additional zone. What is your budget for the receivers?

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post #3 of 39 Old 07-10-2013, 11:55 AM
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Make sure you read the manual before you purchase the receiver. Some of this so called "zone 2" may only read analog sources. This is a big complain you see a lot in all brands.

Most of the time, when using zone 2 or 3, it will disable speakers from the main zone, as they use the same amp. The ones that can do what the marketing leads you to believe are only found in the pricier ones. So just because you see zone 2, it doesn't mean it can play simultaneously and/or from all inputs.

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post #4 of 39 Old 07-10-2013, 11:59 AM
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As long as you don't have more speakers than you do channels. A 7.1 receiver can typically do 5.1 and 2.0 simultaneously, but yes you will need to check and see if the receiver supports digital sources on multiple zones.

I know the Denon X-series owner's thread has a fantastic breakdown of all the models with they support and the differences between each.

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post #5 of 39 Old 07-10-2013, 12:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Well these will be the first receivers I've ever bought. I would like something decent that will make it sound nice. The only thing I really have to go by is what I've seen on Best Buy's website. I've found some pioneer 1155w 7.2 receivers for around $500. Was more than I originally wanted to spend, but I may not have an option. The kitchen is under the bonus room so I guess I could always run the 2 kitchen speakers from a 7.2 receiver that also powers the projector and 5.1 upstairs. I could run the patio 2 speakers from the living area receiver that powers the tv and 5.1. I guess volume controls would be necessary for the kitchen so I don't have to go upstairs to adjust it? Also how would this option allow me to stream music while watching tv and using the surround speakers with the tv?
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post #6 of 39 Old 07-10-2013, 12:20 PM
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Well if you get a network enabled receiver, you can use a smartphone or tablet to control the receivers, so you can control your kitchen speakers from the kitchen with the upstairs receiver. That also answers your second question, if you get network enabled receivers, they typically support Airplay, Pandora, Spotify, and most offer some way to play networked media.

I would probably lean towards Denon, Audyssey is a great tool to have for getting the most out of your system, and they will have all the network features you need. You would need to double check, but something like the AVR-X2000 or AVR-2313 (last years model) should do what you need.
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post #7 of 39 Old 07-10-2013, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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That denon 2313 looks really nice. Great suggestion. This option would also allow me I skip the volume controls in both rooms. May be a dumb question, but is there Bluetooth or something in the receiver that would allow me to sync it with my phone to control volume? Wonder how it would work with 2 Denon 2313 in the same house? Thanks for the help! Great info.
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post #8 of 39 Old 07-10-2013, 12:37 PM
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Well you would just need to run ethernet to the areas where you will have the receivers, then connect your phone to your wifi network and control the receivers that way. I would imagine the app allows you to control more than one device, maybe post in the Denon XX13 owner's thread just to confirm.

Edit: After a quick search it seems the App will control more than one device, though one at a time.

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post #9 of 39 Old 07-10-2013, 01:00 PM
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You aren't going to find a receiver that supports digital sources in multiple zones. Denon 2013 higher end models will support PCM 2.0 from HDMI or S/PDIF sources but this is only 2 channels.

You may be able to get by with a lesser expensive Denon model that supports zone 2 with internal amps (AVR-1913 from last year or AVR-E400 this year), but supporting three zones with the same source is going to be expensive. For Denon the X4000 with an external amp, or the 4520CI. Think about the priorities, where it might be most important to deliver to two zones simultaneously, then where you're willing to sacrifice.

Denon 2012 receiver thread (lots of sales going on)
Denon 2013 receiver thread

There are of course other manufacturers to consider, I just happen to be a Denon fan.

Network feature is the way to go, you can control receivers from any smartphone or tablet. Very cool IMO.

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post #10 of 39 Old 07-10-2013, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

You aren't going to find a receiver that supports digital sources in multiple zones. Denon 2013 higher end models will support PCM 2.0 from HDMI or S/PDIF sources but this is only 2 channels.

You may be able to get by with a lesser expensive Denon model that supports zone 2 with internal amps (AVR-1913 from last year or AVR-E400 this year), but supporting three zones with the same source is going to be expensive. For Denon the X4000 with an external amp, or the 4520CI. Think about the priorities, where it might be most important to deliver to two zones simultaneously, then where you're willing to sacrifice.

If he just uses two 7.1 receivers, that should cover everything. IIRC the AVR-X3000 allows for digital output on Zone 2, but that is probably more than you want to spend. If you just want to stream music to those additional zones though, that may be something the mid-range receivers can do.

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post #11 of 39 Old 07-10-2013, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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You may have already answered this and I'm just not grasping it, but if I chose the 7.2 in order to run the 5.1 system and also the 2 patio speakers is it possible to seperate the channels so I could listen to patio music while the kids are watching a movie using the surround sound? Will it be self explanatory when hooking up so this is an option?
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post #12 of 39 Old 07-10-2013, 03:14 PM
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^^ Yep, this is how it works. Just remember that the source of that zone 2 content must be connected via analog interface.

It will be self explanatory, but there are people happy to help. Don't worry about that part. cool.gif

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post #13 of 39 Old 07-10-2013, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcherry83 View Post

You may have already answered this and I'm just not grasping it, but if I chose the 7.2 in order to run the 5.1 system and also the 2 patio speakers is it possible to seperate the channels so I could listen to patio music while the kids are watching a movie using the surround sound? Will it be self explanatory when hooking up so this is an option?

Depending on the AVR, you may be able install 7.2 main room + 2.0 in the patio. You may be able to play both at the same time, but only in the manner you mentioned above, 5.1 and 2.0. It is not self explanatory if you just look at the marketing descriptions of the second zone. You have to read the manual, and see if it will play form the sources you want. Manuals are easily download from the manufacturer website.

Directly answering your question, most of the time, a 7.2 system with zone 2 will play 5.1 and 2.0 at the same time. My Yamaha RX-V673 does but only from internet and analog sources, not hdmi or digital coax.

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post #14 of 39 Old 07-10-2013, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all of the help guys! I just found a denon avr-x2000 for $459 new in nox factory sealed. I know this was mentioned. It appears that it has real zone 2 capabilities. I think each speaker has 95w output (don't quote me there).
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post #15 of 39 Old 07-10-2013, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Is that a decent deal?
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post #16 of 39 Old 07-10-2013, 06:43 PM
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Can you provide a link? There are very few online vendors approved as Denon resellers. Denon will not honor warranty claims for those that aren't.

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post #17 of 39 Old 07-10-2013, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcherry83 View Post

Thanks for all of the help guys! I just found a denon avr-x2000 for $459 new in nox factory sealed. I know this was mentioned. It appears that it has real zone 2 capabilities. I think each speaker has 95w output (don't quote me there).

What is real Zone 2 capabilities"? I believe this receiver only does analog inputs plus internet and Airplay in Zone2. It doesn't do zone 2 over optical or HDMI.

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post #18 of 39 Old 07-10-2013, 07:29 PM
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Most 2 zone 7 channel receivers allow you to run 5.1 in the main room and stereo music in zone 2 using the extra two amp channels. What I would do if I was you was really think about what your sources are going to be and how you really plan to use the system. Is your music mostly on an iPad device? A PC server? Do you mostly listen off of CDs? How do you really see using the patio and kitchen speakers. You mentioned mostly background music.

Here is my suggestion.

Get a good 2 zone, 7channel receiver, like the Denon, for the living room. Whatever you get, make sure it has preouts for zone 2. Run the speaker wires for the patio and kitchen to boxes on the wall for volume controls, then to the area where the living room receiver is. Hookup one set of speakers, does not matter which, to the extra channels on the back of the receiver. Then get a cheap 2channel amp, like this one:

http://www.htd.com/Products/2-Channel-Stereo/A-2106-Stereo-Amplifier

And hook up the other two speakers to that amp and then connect it to the preouts on the receiver.

Hook up all your digital sources (Satellite/cable TV, BDP, etc.) with extra analog cables to enable the audio to go to zone two.

Now you can play the same music through all 9 speakers if you set the zone 1 and 2 inputs the same. Or, watch TV, movies, play Xbox whatever, in the living room and listen to a different source outside or in the kitchen.

The only reason to get a 3 zone receiver is if you want the patio, kitchen and living room to play 3 separate sources at once.

Then, just get a decent 5.1 receiver for upstairs. If both receivers are connected to your Internet, you should be able to play music from a computer on both, or from a tablet via Aiplay. Get whole home DVR for TV watching and you are all set.

You would still need to move physical media like a BluRay or CD from the living room to the bonus room and vice versa, but all your digital and streaming sources should be accessible from both Internet ready receivers.
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post #19 of 39 Old 07-10-2013, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
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^^^very informative, thanks a lot! The patio and kitchen will be used primarily for iphone, iPad, pandora while trying to entertain. What's a CD? J/k.. So I basically have 2 options. Get the 7.1 for the living area, run the patio to the 2 extra channels after setting up the 5.1, buy a cheap amp to run the 2 kitchen speakers. Or option #2, buy two 7.1 and use one upstairs and one down. Each would have either the kitchen or patio. I guess which ever one is more cost efficient would be the way to go. I like the idea of the volume controls, but I guess I could use my phone if I opted out?

The denon avr x2000 was from an ebay seller. Got excited about the price and didn't think about warranty. It may be a better idea to spend a little more and get warranty. I have heard great things about Danon, but with my luck I would get the only x2000 lemon.
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post #20 of 39 Old 07-10-2013, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
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When you say "hook up all of your digital sources" can you break that down in lamen? Are you saying hook each seperate component up with its own analog chord directly to the receiver? Are there enough holes (for lack of better word)?
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post #21 of 39 Old 07-10-2013, 08:02 PM - Thread Starter
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I may understand after looking at a pic of the back of receiver. You're saying instead of hooking the blueray, cable, etc in the HDMI 'IN', plug them in the audio 'IN' ports? That's the only thing I can see. Not sure if it would effect picture quality? I'm not sure how that would allow for all three rooms to steam same music though. I may be misunderstanding..
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post #22 of 39 Old 07-10-2013, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
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post #23 of 39 Old 07-10-2013, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcherry83 View Post

I may understand after looking at a pic of the back of receiver. You're saying instead of hooking the blueray, cable, etc in the HDMI 'IN', plug them in the audio 'IN' ports? That's the only thing I can see. Not sure if it would effect picture quality? I'm not sure how that would allow for all three rooms to steam same music though. I may be misunderstanding..

You actually need to hook up the satellite box or bluray player with both HDMI and Analog. You defintely need HDMI for the surround sound and HD picture, but as stated by someone above, most receivers cannot send digital signals (which means anything other than the red and white audio RCA cables) to zone 2. So, if you are watching TV you select the input with the HDMI cable, but for zone 2 you select the audio input. That is just a general statement. I would refer to each manual of each receiver for exact details.

For example, my PS3, which I use as my bluray player, is hooked via HDMI to the input labeled "HDP" on my old Denon. But analog cables from the PS3 are hooked up to my"aux" audio input. So, if I want sound from the bluray player to go to zone 2, I select "aux" for my zone 2 input.

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post #24 of 39 Old 07-11-2013, 06:07 AM
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He mentioned the kitchen and patio will be mainly used for music streaming, so he won't need to worry about connecting his sources via analog. If the Denon does internet and airplay in zone 2, then he is covered. The Denon X2000 has an all-zone stereo mode, so for music you can play it over all your speakers in all your zones, and this includes digital sources as well. With airplay, you can select more than one device to stream to, so you can pick both Denon's and have music playing in your patio and kitchen, and still be able to watch something on the 5.1 systems.
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post #25 of 39 Old 07-11-2013, 06:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Trans and everyone else. I have a great plan from talking to you guys. Feels nice to DIY and not pay $95/hour for the local plus equipment markup. Both Denons that were mentioned appear perfect for my needs. Kitchen and patio will be for music. Patio will also be used to stream a football game here and there that is also being played over the 5.1. It sounds like you guys have me covered. So it will be two Denon 7.2's or one Denon 7.2 with a 2 channel amp in the pre-outs, and one 5.1 upstairs for the bonus room. The airplay is going to be great. If I have an iPod streaming over the 5.1 downstairs, I can choose the 'all zone audio' mode to listen to music on the living 5.1, the patio in the other 2 channels, and the kitchen that's amped in the pre- outs. If I want to watch a game in the living area and want it to stream over the 5 surrounds and also the patio, I would just choose zone 1, and 2, right? Just making sure my plan is accurate. Or do you think a 7.2 in both rooms with the patio connected to the living room receiver is the best way to listen to a game on the 5 surrounds and 2 patio speakers? Even with this option and airplay, I could choose 'all audio mode' and stream music thought the whole house with AirPlay on both receivers? Anyone see any detail I'm missing?
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post #26 of 39 Old 07-11-2013, 06:45 AM
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Well I think it would be cheaper to get 2 7.1 receivers, then a 5.1, 7.1, and amp. You have to check and see if the receiver will do what you need though. I do not believe you can assign 2 channels to zone 2, and also use the pre-outs for a different zone. Your home requires 14 channels of amplification and 4 zones, so to me the most cost effective solution is two 7.1 channel receivers.

If you want to have audio from the football game on the patio, you will be limited to using the all-stereo mode so it will just play the same content through all of the 7 speakers and downmix the 5.1 system to stereo. This is probably not a big deal for football, so I think the AVR X-2000 would be your best option.

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post #27 of 39 Old 07-11-2013, 07:29 AM
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The X2000 is a good fit for your use as the main living room receiver. If the other two spaces can be stereo only I'm missing why 14 channels are necessary, so I might recommend a very cheap network capable AVR or cheap 2 channel network receiver like the Onkyo TX-8050, especially if there are no plans to add a subwoofer to this room. We've established that simultaneous delivery across all three listening areas is an expensive path. One of those three will be isolated from the other two. This is your decision.

Adding clarification to a statement above, any internally sourced digital content (radio, Pandora, etc.) can be routed to zone 2. I believe this is true with all manufacturers, I know it is with Denon and the onkyo (which I previously owned).

The biggest decision you have to make is which room is the odd duck smile.gif

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post #28 of 39 Old 07-11-2013, 07:44 AM
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14 channels - 5.1 + 5.1 + 2.0 + 2.0

I am assuming the OP wants each zone to be independent, so if he was watching football in the living room and had it playing on the patio, the kitchen would be free to play music, for example. If the kitchen and patio will always be linked with the same content, then you could simplify the setup.

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post #29 of 39 Old 07-11-2013, 08:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys. And thanks for your patience. Just when I think I catch on, I feel like something else may be a better option.

1)The kitchen and patio linked to the same content is okay with me. I won't ever be trying to play music in the kitchen while listening to the game on the patio and also 5.1 in the living room. Kitchen and living room are connected by open floor plan so this really doesn't make me want each independent.

2) nethawk- what did you mean by "other 2 spaces"? Are you talking patio and kitchen?

3) we did determine that simultaneous listening across all 3 areas (living room, patio, and kitchen) would be pricey. However, if I ran the x2000 with the 5.1 and the patio connected, then connected a cheap amp to the preouts with the kitchen connected to that, I could stream all 3 simultaneously using the "all audio mode". Correct?

4) a little confused on the digital content zone 2 stuff. If I used the x2000 and had the patio connected to the receiver and the kitchen connected to the amp through pre-outs, are all of those 4 considered zone 2? If the 5.1 is zone 1 and the patio and pre-out is zone 2, it would seem I could turn on zone 2 only and use the airplay to play kitchen and patio streaming the same content. Right? Then if I wanted to add the same sound to the living room, just turn in the all audio mode. However if I wanted to watch tv on zone 1 and play music on zone 2, I don't know if that would work?

If I don't have to have 4 seperate zones, it would probably be smart to have volume controls at the patio and kitchen since they would be both on zone 2. This way if I wanted, I could turn off the kitchen at the control and still have music on the patio.


How would you guys do it? Cost efficient.

This is what I want-
-Surround sound in living room and bonus room (5.1)
-ability to play music on patio (2 speakers),living room (5 speakers), and kitchen (2 speakers) all at the same time same content.
-ability to watch a game on TV with the audio streaming on the patio and kitchen is fine too.
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post #30 of 39 Old 07-11-2013, 09:03 AM
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3) we did determine that simultaneous listening across all 3 areas (living room, patio, and kitchen) would be pricey. However, if I ran the x2000 with the 5.1 and the patio connected, then connected a cheap amp to the preouts with the kitchen connected to that, I could stream all 3 simultaneously using the "all audio mode". Correct?

The X2000 only has two zones, even though you have the option of using the receiver's amps, or an external amp via the pre-outs. So this receiver will only handle 2 zones. You would need to step up to an AVR-X4000 to have three zones.
Quote:
4) a little confused on the digital content zone 2 stuff. If I used the x2000 and had the patio connected to the receiver and the kitchen connected to the amp through pre-outs, are all of those 4 considered zone 2? If the 5.1 is zone 1 and the patio and pre-out is zone 2, it would seem I could turn on zone 2 only and use the airplay to play kitchen and patio streaming the same content. Right? Then if I wanted to add the same sound to the living room, just turn in the all audio mode. However if I wanted to watch tv on zone 1 and play music on zone 2, I don't know if that would work?

See my previous comment.

What you could get is a speaker selector for the patio and kitchen. This would work well, and would let you choose if you want the kitchen or patio on, and can also do both. You are just limited to playing the same content through both. If you get one of these, you could drop down to the Denon AVR-X1000 for the upstairs room, and that price difference pays for the selector. Then you can control the volume of the kitchen and/or patio from the downstairs AVR.

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